Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-29-2022, 10:59 AM   #61
Bus Crazy
 
Rwnielsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 1,075
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000, 40' MPV
Engine: 5.9 Cummins/B300 trans
Rated Cap: U/K
Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikon View Post
I think it said "This vehicle is certified for sale and use in the State of California" I don't remember a date of expiration. Would that be an ex post facto law? Hell forget it. We live in a post constitutional America now.
Ain't that the truth

Rwnielsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2022, 08:45 PM   #62
Bus Crazy
 
DeMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,558
Coachwork: Integrated Coach Corp.
Chassis: RE-300 42ft
Engine: 466ci
Rated Cap: 90
EPA Hits Two More Diesel Tuners With $10 Million Fine For Defeat Devices

The EPA's crackdown on diesel emissions defeat devices has come to Michigan.

Two Michigan-based diesel tuning companies have just been hit with $10 million worth of civil penalties for their role in the manufacture, sale, and distribution of diesel emissions defeat devices...

Lucas Bell has written another article on the subject.
www.roadandtrack.com/news/pa-hits-two-more-diesel-tuners-with-dollar10-million-fine-for-defeat-devices
Sep 7, 2022
__________________
Ceiling: Framing & Electrical Rough-in
Convert Hatch to AC & Roof Patch
🇺🇸 Frederick Douglass: "If there is no struggle, there is no progress.”
DeMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2022, 03:24 PM   #63
Bus Crazy
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,607
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
Freedom and Liberty my Ar_e.
Tyranny runs rampant.
__________________
YouTube: HAMSkoolie WEB: HAMSkoolie.com
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, we now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing. US Marines -- 6531, 3521. . . .Ret ASE brakes & elect. Ret (auto and aviation mech). Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater diver
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 02:42 PM   #64
Bus Crazy
 
DeMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,558
Coachwork: Integrated Coach Corp.
Chassis: RE-300 42ft
Engine: 466ci
Rated Cap: 90
This Story has an Odd Twist

.
.
TX - Waller County EMS Ambulances Found with Emissions Defeat Devices

Public Funds paid for emissions equipment removal and costly fix is underway. ($105,000 + addt'l labor)
Click2Houston.com/Investigates/12-01-22/Waller-County-EMS-Ambulances-Found-with-Emissions-Defeat-Devices

"The ambulances are owned by Waller-Harris Emergency Services District 200, a taxing authority, that collected about $12 million in 2022 from both property and sales taxes within its 608 sq. mile territory.

Unconventionally, the person who alerted the US EPA about the issue is the same person who is ultimately responsible for the ambulances, Tim Gibson, Director of ESD 200. Gibson did not authorize the changes, which were made before his tenure as Director."


(Full Story Above)
__________________
Ceiling: Framing & Electrical Rough-in
Convert Hatch to AC & Roof Patch
🇺🇸 Frederick Douglass: "If there is no struggle, there is no progress.”
DeMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 04:04 PM   #65
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,678
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Odd indeed.

The director self reported the issue. Which was authorized by the constable.

I can't really fault the constable, he did what was best for the service, as the emissions devices made the ambulances unrealiable, and that's not a good thing when a life is on the line. Could you imagine an ambulance on a hot run getting limited to 5mph due to an emissions issue?
__________________
My build: The Silver Bullet https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/p...llet-9266.html
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2022, 05:41 PM   #66
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: ocala FL.
Posts: 147
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: international
Engine: t444e
Rated Cap: short
Thought police/fire/government vehicles are exempt for emission laws.
syntaxterror is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2022, 06:27 PM   #67
Bus Crazy
 
DeMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,558
Coachwork: Integrated Coach Corp.
Chassis: RE-300 42ft
Engine: 466ci
Rated Cap: 90
Common Misconception

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxterror View Post
Thought police/fire/government vehicles are exempt for emission laws.
In June 2012, the EPA announced the granting of relief for fire trucks and ambulances. This relief came through two methods of rule making:
a direct final rule (DFR) and a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM).

The announcement of this relief has generated misconceptions and questions for many individuals involved in the emergency vehicle community.

The biggest misconception with both the DFR and NPRM is that emergency vehicles are now exempt from having to meet current emissions standards. This may be a result of a regulatory announcement that carried a misleading title.

Contrary to the general perception, 2007 and 2010 emissions components such as diesel particulate filters (DPFs) and selective catalytic reduction (SCR) components cannot (legally) be removed. Although the EPA is committed to allowing engine manufacturers some flexibility, emergency vehicles are still required to meet the emissions standards in place at the time the engine was produced.

www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions/Proposed-Rule-Revisions-Emergency Vehicles
__________________
Ceiling: Framing & Electrical Rough-in
Convert Hatch to AC & Roof Patch
🇺🇸 Frederick Douglass: "If there is no struggle, there is no progress.”
DeMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2022, 08:34 PM   #68
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,678
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Military and motorsports is/was the only exemption last I heard. There's a push to restrict motorsports, even if it is off-road. Not sure who's gonna win the epa vs sema battle, though.

I don't think restricting the military is even a thought.

I could see fire/ems as an acceptable exemption, but it's not for whatever reason.
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2023, 07:55 PM   #69
Bus Crazy
 
DeMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,558
Coachwork: Integrated Coach Corp.
Chassis: RE-300 42ft
Engine: 466ci
Rated Cap: 90
🍁Canadian Diesel Spec Inc

US Sues Emissions Control Defeat Device Maker Out of Canada

EPA and DOJ File Clean Air Act Complaint Against Diesel Spec Inc. for the Sale of Vehicle Emission Defeat Devices
__________________
Ceiling: Framing & Electrical Rough-in
Convert Hatch to AC & Roof Patch
🇺🇸 Frederick Douglass: "If there is no struggle, there is no progress.”
DeMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2023, 08:32 PM   #70
Bus Nut
 
nikitis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 840
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 29
The days of diesel coming to an end. Take care of your motors friends.
nikitis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2023, 06:13 AM   #71
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,758
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitis View Post
The days of diesel coming to an end. Take care of your motors friends.

these are emission defeat devices.. any company in the US, canada, or europe still making them has known their own fate for awhile...


doesnt mean the yarent still attainable.. there are places to get them, just not as obvious..typically packaged as fuel saving emission reducing devices ,efficiency upgrades.. have to get them through other channels...


diesel tuners and the like that dont defeat emission control devices are perfectly legal and theres plenty of them out there...



diesels are great but unless you can get a full mechanical or a gen 1 computer controlled (pre EGR) bus.. then really diesel isnt all its cracked up to be.. defeating the emission control on an emission engine really doesnt help it out a lot in terms of reliability...



better off with a gasoline VVT engine cammed with a low RPM high torque RV / towing cam..
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2023, 08:13 AM   #72
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,678
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
defeating the emission control on an emission engine really doesnt help it out a lot in terms of reliability...
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. Better then half of the issues we have in the shop are related to egr, scr, or dpf troubles. The rest could be considered a secondary effect of those systems operating. Leaking hoses/radiators, failed turbos, and all the havoc that soot being blown past the rings will cause.

We don't do the deletes, we were too late to the game when it started IMO. We just refer the right customers to the right guys who can make it happen. Pretty sure one of the guys local to me was the original target of the epa, and he turned on and ratted the guy above him, who then turned on the place in Canada.

I read somewhere that even ebay is facing litigation because they allowed 3rd party sellers to do business. Motorsports are still exempt from these laws the last I checked, so how was ebay was supposed to police that for them?

Everyone wants clean air and water, but the epa is bordering a modern day rendition of the Schutzstaffel.
__________________
My build: The Silver Bullet https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/p...llet-9266.html
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2023, 09:43 AM   #73
Skoolie
 
Tin Roadtube Vagrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Posts: 185
Year: 2001
Chassis: Chevy Kodiak
Engine: 3126B CAT
Rated Cap: 27K
They do eventually come for you. I had an acquittance who got nabbed by the EPA for disabling emissions systems in his shop. EPA stopped an inch short of turning him into a financially ruined eunuch. Up front, a hefty fine. The Feds made him video the destruction of his conversion hardware, software, toys, etc, hammer smash. He had to write a letter to every customer offering to restore emissions on all vehicles he deleted. To make up for his damage to the environment they took a wide footprint of the rural area and everyone who had an older wood burning boiler was given the option to have him (by compulsion of the law) buy an upgrade to EPA approved wood boiler for them. Boilers are popular here.

We pay big bucks to keep our machines compliant. The final 4 aren't horrible once you master the issues. The next jump to 5 will be a "start all over again" crap shoot. Guess we'll see shortly. Gray market machines from Europe are already sneaking in with tier 5 emissions.

Volvo's rep told me our retired machines get a kit installed which eliminates all emissions for shipment to Africa or whatever third world country. The Government allows Volvo to establish one entity who does the conversion back to pre-emissions. In Volvo's case a place in Texas was granted the license. First you have to have a shipping manifest and appeal to Volvo for the package. Once paperwork ducks are in a row with EPA the emission system is stripped, software download installed, and it has to leave the USA on the next thing smoking.

Best Diesels made are 1990-2002, hands down. Wonder years of power toward the end. Electronic timing and delivery to be credited. 300HP engines now building 460HP with same base engine & displacement. Gonna burn dinosaur brains in my 7.2 CAT till I die. Cheers.....
Tin Roadtube Vagrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2023, 10:26 AM   #74
Skoolie
 
Tin Roadtube Vagrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Posts: 185
Year: 2001
Chassis: Chevy Kodiak
Engine: 3126B CAT
Rated Cap: 27K
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...rationcafo.pdf


.......Found it, If you get really bored crack a cold one and read bottom of page 9 and all of page 10. Cliff notes. That poor, poor, bastard... nuff said.
Tin Roadtube Vagrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2023, 10:40 AM   #75
Bus Nut
 
nikitis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 840
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 29
A loop hole for all this is to manufacture your own engine and register it as experimental. If they question it state its experimental and in early design phase. Emissions design phase is up and coming. The epa is not allowed to interfere with development. They can only crack down on sellers and preventing it all from going mainstream. Of course this still will lock out 99.8% of everyone wanting such a setup as they wont build their own engines /car/bus etc, but can open the door for a select few capable folks

In fact it can even be an emissions diesel modified with emissions delete. They cannot argue with you when you tell them it needs to be deleted for emissions testing

Your allowed to use parts from existing known vehicles in the design of your vehicle
nikitis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2023, 11:10 AM   #76
Skoolie
 
Tin Roadtube Vagrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Tomahawk, WI
Posts: 185
Year: 2001
Chassis: Chevy Kodiak
Engine: 3126B CAT
Rated Cap: 27K
Need a bigger 3D printer.....

They'll master it, loopholes aside. Manufactures like Liebherr are blowing the roof off NOx and blasting the exhaust stream with 12% DEF injection.

They took away the EGR that cooled and reduced NOx and drove the engine to the other extreme. The cylinder combustion temps are through the roof and mass producing NOx, BUT incinerating the solids to a level that occurs in the DPF during regen. To make up for the excessive NOx they hose the stream with DEF. What is usually a 3% injection ratio is now 12% DEF. No more EGR. No more DPF filter. Lotta DEF.

If I get a chance over the next few days I'll snap a pic of it.... it's entertaining. Looks like a reversed engineered version of itself. I credit these engineers for making lemonade out of walnuts.
Tin Roadtube Vagrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2023, 06:27 AM   #77
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,758
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. Better then half of the issues we have in the shop are related to egr, scr, or dpf troubles. The rest could be considered a secondary effect of those systems operating. Leaking hoses/radiators, failed turbos, and all the havoc that soot being blown past the rings will cause.

We don't do the deletes, we were too late to the game when it started IMO. We just refer the right customers to the right guys who can make it happen. Pretty sure one of the guys local to me was the original target of the epa, and he turned on and ratted the guy above him, who then turned on the place in Canada.

I read somewhere that even ebay is facing litigation because they allowed 3rd party sellers to do business. Motorsports are still exempt from these laws the last I checked, so how was ebay was supposed to police that for them?

Everyone wants clean air and water, but the epa is bordering a modern day rendition of the Schutzstaffel.

but its still an emissions engine.. I agree that a ton of issues are caused by the systems.. but unless the whole thing is completely redone as a non E unit its still an emissions engine at its heart... buy or build a non E one and you have a great reliable engine...
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2023, 06:32 AM   #78
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,758
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Roadtube Vagrant View Post
Need a bigger 3D printer.....

They'll master it, loopholes aside. Manufactures like Liebherr are blowing the roof off NOx and blasting the exhaust stream with 12% DEF injection.

They took away the EGR that cooled and reduced NOx and drove the engine to the other extreme. The cylinder combustion temps are through the roof and mass producing NOx, BUT incinerating the solids to a level that occurs in the DPF during regen. To make up for the excessive NOx they hose the stream with DEF. What is usually a 3% injection ratio is now 12% DEF. No more EGR. No more DPF filter. Lotta DEF.

If I get a chance over the next few days I'll snap a pic of it.... it's entertaining. Looks like a reversed engineered version of itself. I credit these engineers for making lemonade out of walnuts.

there was precedent set on gasoline engines for that... and really if you run ceramic top pistons and a heck of a lot of boost in a diesel.. you have high EGT all the time.. possibly High enough to keep the DPF clean without DPF.. i do have to wonder about the environmental impact of DEF.. what is used to make it? the packaging? I know some places have "def pumps" but by far and large I see the empty single use boxed plastic containers sitting next to the diesel pumps wherever i go, having never owned a modern diesel i dont know how much of the stuff you use on a normal basis..
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2023, 08:17 AM   #79
Bus Nut
 
nikitis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 840
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
there was precedent set on gasoline engines for that... and really if you run ceramic top pistons and a heck of a lot of boost in a diesel.. you have high EGT all the time.. possibly High enough to keep the DPF clean without DPF.. i do have to wonder about the environmental impact of DEF.. what is used to make it? the packaging? I know some places have "def pumps" but by far and large I see the empty single use boxed plastic containers sitting next to the diesel pumps wherever i go, having never owned a modern diesel i dont know how much of the stuff you use on a normal basis..

Not forgetting the accessibility of DEF in the future. UREA is one of the main components which is basically Piss from Ukraine. Most of the worlds UREA was made there which is now inaccessible which will cause the DEF prices to go sky high in the future, unless we change sources for UREA. I don't want to handle piss or put it in my bus.
nikitis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2023, 08:28 AM   #80
Bus Crazy
 
mmoore6856's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: arkensas
Posts: 1,076
Year: 1997
Coachwork: bluebird
Chassis: chevy
Engine: 3116 catapillar
Rated Cap: 71 now 2 humans 1 cat
the reason a lot still buy the jugs is when i still drove it was not uncommon to get bad def from a pump causing usually over 5 grand in damages
mmoore6856 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel emmisions, epa, epa destruction, navistar emissions, pre-epa

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.