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Old 10-31-2023, 09:32 AM   #81
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urea is also mostly synthetically made now which destroyed my dream of drinking for a living

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Old 10-31-2023, 10:42 AM   #82
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Jugs are "certified" pure. Barrels and pumps can have water added by shady individuals looking to make a bigger buck. Never underestimate what a gas station owner will try to do to make a buck, especially some of the ones that live on-site if you know what I mean.

FYI DEF doesn't like to be watered down by anything but distilled water. A few times we have added water to tanks to dissolve deposits in them. It's definitely nasty stuff.

And yes, I feel liebherr is on the right track with this emissions stuff. Excessive EGR is what killed cat and navistar on the on-highway business. Hell, it might make the exhaust so clean your 2 cycle detroits can be brought back from the dead and ran in California again. Just make sure your slobber tube buckets are in place

As far as use per mile, it's only really used when making power, so drive cautiously and you'll use very little. A gallon per 100 miles is our average IIRC, which is low compared to what guys see in linehaul, but with bus's being primarily stop and go, it makes sense. It's interesting with us because we can track DEF mpg in the same way you track fuel MPG, and they corroborate pretty closely to one another. The route plays a part, but the driver and their habits are the biggest factor.
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Old 11-01-2023, 08:03 AM   #83
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there was precedent set on gasoline engines for that... and really if you run ceramic top pistons and a heck of a lot of boost in a diesel.. you have high EGT all the time.. possibly High enough to keep the DPF clean without DPF.. i do have to wonder about the environmental impact of DEF.. what is used to make it? the packaging? I know some places have "def pumps" but by far and large I see the empty single use boxed plastic containers sitting next to the diesel pumps wherever i go, having never owned a modern diesel i dont know how much of the stuff you use on a normal basis..
Usually your burning 3-12%, so ratio 3 gallons DEF to 100 gallons fuel. The box wine stuff is most often 4 wheeled vehicles so not really the big waste footprint. Big guys all have bulk systems for cost efficiency. We have a bulk system, not too bad but a pain in the butt sometimes because anything freezable is WI is frozen 7 months of the year.

Moore is right about quality. The bulk transportation causes it to become oxidized and slightly foggy. Towing 18 wheels because of foggy DEF isn't cheap. Depending on machine OEM you can have a host of issues when the DEF tank armature clarity-eye freaks on the fog. We were having fog issues once and I went on a tri-county truck ride collecting DEF from truck stops and stations. I had 4 samples. The 5th sample was from one of my 2.5-gallon AdBlue box kits. The box kit was the only one with true clarity. All bulk DEF had some degree of fogging.

True story.....

Volvo field service told me they had a fairly confused customer dump a gallon of blue windshield wash fluid into a 300 gallon DEF bulk system tote. He said the tote had an "AdBlue" label on it. AdBlue is a European commercial term for DEF. So, dude thought he would "add some blue like the label said". The whole tank had to be disposed of. The DEF armature purity eye on the machine's tanks picked up the slight blue tint and put the trucks/machines into limp mode.
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Old 11-01-2023, 08:09 AM   #84
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urea is also mostly synthetically made now which destroyed my dream of drinking for a living
Lol, not a bad retirement gig, free beer and a catheter for $10 an hour?
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Old 11-01-2023, 08:36 AM   #85
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Jugs are "certified" pure. Barrels and pumps can have water added by shady individuals looking to make a bigger buck. Never underestimate what a gas station owner will try to do to make a buck, especially some of the ones that live on-site if you know what I mean.

FYI DEF doesn't like to be watered down by anything but distilled water. A few times we have added water to tanks to dissolve deposits in them. It's definitely nasty stuff.

And yes, I feel liebherr is on the right track with this emissions stuff. Excessive EGR is what killed cat and navistar on the on-highway business. Hell, it might make the exhaust so clean your 2 cycle detroits can be brought back from the dead and ran in California again. Just make sure your slobber tube buckets are in place

As far as use per mile, it's only really used when making power, so drive cautiously and you'll use very little. A gallon per 100 miles is our average IIRC, which is low compared to what guys see in linehaul, but with bus's being primarily stop and go, it makes sense. It's interesting with us because we can track DEF mpg in the same way you track fuel MPG, and they corroborate pretty closely to one another. The route plays a part, but the driver and their habits are the biggest factor.
On "Nasty" comment. Yes, and amen. It destroys whatever it touches that isn't plastic or stainless steel. We have a place to hang the nozzle for our DEF system in my building. DEF was slobbering on the wall and floor. I was PSI washing the area. DEF went down along the wall edge and got under the slab into the ground. It found a water line and ate a hole. Started getting water fountains where we ought not. Had to cut the concrete out and quick-fit the line and leave the Earth removed so if DEF ever got on the wall it couldn't touch the line. A little goes a long way for corrosion. Yet, you can drink it diluted and not die, it's strange, magical, juice.

We keep a spectrum scope for purity checks. So far, we've never had any shenanigans from the vendor.
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Old 11-01-2023, 08:38 AM   #86
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interesting stuff.. I never thought about the stuff freezing... makes sense that go easy in the throttle and you use less.. hence when a traditional diesel isnt blowing black smoke / over-fueling...


as far as box-wine only in 4 wheelers.. there are plenty of 6 wheelers that fill up at the local Sheetz gas stations because their diesel prices tend to be less than the truck stops near me... ive seen them fill their def too.. but at least in the midwest theres a lot of diesel 4 wheelers.. many of them im sure never haul anything more than groceries.. bit the guys like them.. my local RAM dealer was pushing them hard when they had the 3.0 eco-diesel.. theres a bunch of them around my area..


in volume im sure its a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of diesel / DEF that commercial trucking industry uses but not insignificant..


I do have to wonder though.. who thought up the fact that wienering-it-out into the exhaust would make it burn cleaner...
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Old 11-01-2023, 08:46 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
interesting stuff.. I never thought about the stuff freezing... makes sense that go easy in the throttle and you use less.. hence when a traditional diesel isnt blowing black smoke / over-fueling...


as far as box-wine only in 4 wheelers.. there are plenty of 6 wheelers that fill up at the local Sheetz gas stations because their diesel prices tend to be less than the truck stops near me... ive seen them fill their def too.. but at least in the midwest theres a lot of diesel 4 wheelers.. many of them im sure never haul anything more than groceries.. bit the guys like them.. my local RAM dealer was pushing them hard when they had the 3.0 eco-diesel.. theres a bunch of them around my area..


in volume im sure its a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of diesel / DEF that commercial trucking industry uses but not insignificant..







I do have to wonder though.. who thought up the fact that wienering-it-out into the exhaust would make it burn cleaner...

Well like I said, it's ultimately a Urine product. The elites get a kick out of making slaves pay for their own piss, even if it's synthetic piss, it still gives them jollies. I'd just rather go back to the good ole days and only buy diesel, or grow my own bio-diesel to operate. Imagine the power people could have if they grew their own diesel fuel.
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Old 11-01-2023, 09:09 AM   #88
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This is my project for today. Machine has over 20K hours operating time, and the interior of the exhaust stack is still chromed. These exhaust systems are a complete money pit and PITA, but hats off, I never thought I'd see diesel burn this clean in my lifetime. This isn't even a clean model, it's an interim tier 4, pre DEF.

I used to work all day in a shop that was bar room blue with smoke for 8 hours a day. Now we don't even drop an exhaust tube on when we run for tune ups.

It's so clean there is no reason to further research to tier 5. I can say with good certainty the push is political. An attempt to eliminate fossil fuels altogether.
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Old 01-09-2024, 04:04 PM   #89
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Criminal Charges & Possibly Jail !?! 🤯

"Advisory sentencing guidelines calls for six to twelve months in prison."

Mechanic misled as bosses ‘reaped mighty rewards’ by altering diesel emissions, attorney says
Jan. 9, 2024

No one would’ve expected Dustin Rhines to be standing before a federal judge accused in a conspiracy to alter emissions controls on heavy-duty diesel engines.

Rhine, 33, of Indian River in Cheboygan County, avoided a harsh penalty. He was sentenced Monday, Jan. 8, to one year on probation and a $2,000 fine

His employer, Diesel Freak in Gaylord awaits sentencing, scheduled for Jan. 26, 2024. It has agreed to a $750,000 fine.
-------------------------------------

For a more in depth article discribing the "Master/Slave" prosecutions, please read Tyson Fisher's report:
Man pleads guilty in truck emission-defeating scheme

Sisson is just the latest individual in the emissions scheme to face criminal charges. According to court records, several individuals involved in the scheme have already pleaded guilty.

Glenn Hoezee, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $4,000 fine

Robert Swainston, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $4,000 fine

Randy “Jeb” Clelland, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $4,000 fine

Ryan Bos, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $6,000 fine

Scott DeKock, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $10,000 fine

Craig Scholten, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $6,000 fine

Douglas Larsen, sentenced to 12 months of probation, $7,500 fine

Accurate Truck Service also has been sentenced to 12 months of probation and issued a $500,000 fine.
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Old 01-10-2024, 10:09 AM   #90
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ill be glad that none of my diesels are emission rated! .. my next pickup truckwill probably be a hybrid gas / EV - giving me the low end torque and still the range.. ill stay away from diesel stuff except for the old..
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Old 01-10-2024, 11:32 AM   #91
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ill be glad that none of my diesels are emission rated! .. my next pickup truckwill probably be a hybrid gas / EV - giving me the low end torque and still the range.. ill stay away from diesel stuff except for the old..
This is a lot of the reason why I've been pushing for EV buses. Seems hybrid is the way to go for the future of skoolies, but we need some proven examples of it working. And screw emissions diesels.
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Old 01-10-2024, 11:39 AM   #92
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These good'ol boys are no longer necessary to delete your emissions. It's too bad they got hammered like they did, but no one is naive.

It's an unnecessary risk. A friend of mine had his farm tractor deleted by a hacker on the other side of the globe. A 3 A.M. transaction. It's foolish to do this on the soil that will prosecute you. It's not like you need someone stateside to do your software delete. If they fry something expensive trying to delete, are you really going to take them to small claims? Nope. Even playing field. No master, no slave, direct transaction in a barn with WiFi.
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Old 01-10-2024, 11:50 AM   #93
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Depends if a software delete is all that is required to do it. Some require hardware modifications.

As for software modifications, and regarding other applications other than automotive, but with computers and other devices such as game consoles etc, I've gone this route (legally of course). I'm a huge proponent of flashing your own devices with custom firmware. It's your device, period. Even if they state you are only leasing it. Doesn't hold up in court without a signed agreement on paper. Common law requires if goods are exchanged for currency as a buy it's yours unless the user explicitly and knowingly agrees to a lease. Lots of digital EULA's don't hold up in court because the users aren't reading them, they are just clicking "yes", and because jury's and judges also do the same thing they sympathize with the prosecuted often. Most of the time by the time you read the EULA you've already given the seller the money before agreeing, so it also won't hold up in court for those reasons as well.

In regards to diesel emissions software reverse engineering, there's a greater consequence of EPA laws you are violating by doing so. It's not so much that you reverse engineered the software, but that you are driving it around in such a state polluting the environment is why they go after you so much on it. And if you are a dealership doing it, well now you could of done it to 100's of customers so it's worse in a dealership fashion and they want to discourage this.

Those who are smart enough to do software hacks could always thwart and get around these things, but they are less than 0.01% of the population and the government doesn't care about those usually because the number is so small it's insignificant to them, unless it gets out of hand and they start educating the masses on how to do it, then they bring the drop on you.
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Old 01-10-2024, 12:05 PM   #94
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Someone still has to pull the equipment off, and someone still has to connect the interface and communicate with the hacker. The tune is only half the project. Your buddy will likely be fine, as will numerous other owner-ops. But no CEO is going to do this, they'll leave it to a mechanic, and as you said, no-one can claim to be naïve anymore.

From what I read, that's what a lot of these defendants in the case were, mechanics or shop managers. I doubt they'll ever get the guy who makes the tune, just those that carried it out.

When it's found, someone will always be caught holding the bag.

Griffin transportation has 62 rigs according to the DOT. Relatively small compared to a lot of other trucking companies. I wonder if it was a competitor that reported them.
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Old 01-10-2024, 12:14 PM   #95
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These good'ol boys are no longer necessary to delete your emissions. It's too bad they got hammered like they did, but no one is naive.

It's an unnecessary risk. A friend of mine had his farm tractor deleted by a hacker on the other side of the globe. A 3 A.M. transaction. It's foolish to do this on the soil that will prosecute you. It's not like you need someone stateside to do your software delete. If they fry something expensive trying to delete, are you really going to take them to small claims? Nope. Even playing field. No master, no slave, direct transaction in a barn with WiFi.

there are "export engine files" floating aroundthe interwebs for the taking for many of the popular engines that had on and off road applications in other countries..



for me there is also a do i need to delete factor? if said engine already has more than enough power for what I use it for.. and im using it in a way that minimizes failure risks.. i know plenty of guys that have 300K plus on their completely stock box trucks that have plenty of power and get them where they need to go.. now granted these are newer trucks with cummins 6.7s that may or may have nbot been involved in a scheme to defeat (and make reliable) their engines..



I totally get reasons why someone would want to delete first gen emissions diesels.. the IH maxxforce 7 (aka 6.4) is actually a pretty reliable engine when deleted.. and at one time every shop would delete those.. the said bounties are defimnitely lookin for those guys because they are a popular delete..



many schools have switched their short and in-town routes to gasoline or propane busses for the reasons that short in town trips are the kiss of death for emissions diesels (and also the perfect candidates for EV when it becomes viable)..



hardware deletes are easy in non inspection states (middle rural america).. the truck doesnt even have to Look legal (unless its an inspectable commercial vehicle.. likie a pickup used for hot shotting).. while DOT wont test the tailpipe.. they are getting keen to pieces that appear missing.. esp when travelling through emissions-happy states..
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Old 01-10-2024, 12:17 PM   #96
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Take a look at the current state of Police State technology. I have fiends and family still behind the iron curtain and they are just getting hammered with more and more crap. This is how they find deleted vehicles. https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/media-ad...orcement-event
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Old 01-10-2024, 01:00 PM   #97
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Yup, California is crazy about smoke. "Iron curtain", lol.

When you have only DEF injection you can do it exclusively with software. New engines that burn at high NOX without DPF or EGR need a few logical inputs. That's the trend (by progression) in final 4's, mostly to attain reliability and lower costs. I can't say I've seen it over 10 liters yet.....

Beyond that, put your own hardware on. When I worked at the dealership tier 3 used to have a delete ECM the size of a deck of cards mated to OEM harness. Module was widely sold online as a "race accessory" for oval track semi races, which do exist. It of course said "off road use only" on it.

Those fellas were playing middle man $$$$, like every dealership.
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