Seek and Destroy Bounty, EPA & Navistar's New Deal

[DeMac]

The EPA & Navistar have negotiated a settlement to their lawsuit agreeing that Navistar will procure & destroy 'older' diesel engines. Cheap retired buses are a likely source for the numbers they require.

The consent decree requires Navistar (now VW/Triton) to acquire older, high-polluting HDDEs from the used HDDE market and destroy enough of them to result in at least 10,000 tons of NOx emissions reduction.

Navistar may permanently destroy any combination of on-highway HDDEs from model year 2009 or older that are used to power Class 4-8 heavy-duty diesel trucks, transit, intercity, or school buses, or any other on-highway heavy duty diesel vehicles or any combination of heavy-duty nonroad diesel engines subject to Tier 1, 2, 3, or 4.

(EPA's Report, Oct. 25, 2021)
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/nav...enalty-federal
(Decree details)
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/navi...act-settlement

Store your Smokin' Joes in a safe place. I expect the EPA will soon pressure other manufacturers into becoming bounty hunters.

[DoubleO7]

When did this come out??

Used parts and new parts for items exclusive for that age of engines just jumped up.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by DeMac

The EPA & Navistar have negotiated a settlement to their lawsuit agreeing that Navistar will procure & destroy 'older' diesel engines. Cheap retired buses are a likely source for the numbers they require.

The consent decree requires Navistar (now VW/Triton) to acquire older, high-polluting HDDEs from the used HDDE market and destroy enough of them to result in at least 10,000 tons of NOx emissions reduction.

Navistar may permanently destroy any combination of on-highway HDDEs from model year 2009 or older that are used to power Class 4-8 heavy-duty diesel trucks, transit, intercity, or school buses, or any other on-highway heavy duty diesel vehicles or any combination of heavy-duty nonroad diesel engines subject to Tier 1, 2, 3, or 4.

(EPA's Report, Oct. 25, 2021)
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/nav...enalty-federal
(Decree details)
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/navi...act-settlement

Store your Smokin' Joes in a safe place. I expect the EPA will soon pressure other manufacturers into becoming bounty hunters.

Dang- I'd say it was a good idea if all they were going after were Maxxforce and 365's. A lot of folks buy those thinking they've gotten a great deal only to find out "newer isn't better". Sucks that they're going back to tier 1.

[DoubleO7]

Reading the first link, it appears there is no limit on how far back they can go taking out on-road engines.
Off-road engines are limited to tier one or newer (1996)??
Of course the article might not be showing all the details and the era of any engine to be removed is 1996 or newer.
Along with an eligible engine must be running or repairable to running condition.

[s2mikon]

Basically it means that only the junk will be left. NWO you will own nothing and love it.

[DoubleO7]

Originally Posted by s2mikon

Basically it means that only the junk will be left. NWO you will own nothing and love it.

But we will own a fraction of everything.
But it won't be big enough to do anything with.

[s2mikon]

First it is the insurance companies, then the road side assistance people and now all the older vehicles and engines. Does not look like a very bright future for us. What will be next?

[HamSkoolie]

That Tree is looking pretty durned thirsty these days.

[s2mikon]

And it will be watered. Don't know when, but it will.

[HamSkoolie]

Sooner than I thought until the last 10 years or so. Now I think the tinder is all piled up and just waiting for the spark.

[Sehnsucht]

VW just can't seem to comply with the EPA's rules for the diesel market! LoL

I don't think this settlement appears all that dire though for this community. The requirement to mitigate 10k tons of CO2s seems to be an overall number, not like 10k per year. So the number of actual diesel units involved is probably a few thousand and the older the better for them to hit that target. Especially pre-2007s which didn't require the exhaust treatment systems.

Also the target regions must be 'disproportionately effected' which is political correctness speak for poor and ethnically diverse communities. So most likely Navistar will do a deal with a few key cities to buy some of their old diesel city buses and those cities will use the money to start an electric bus changeover program. They come out looking like the good guys in all this if they spin the media coverage right!

[Oscar1]

Future generations have never looked back at a civil unrest of this magnitude and said “maybe the government was right”
James Hewton

Stay safe

Oscar

[HamSkoolie]

Our bus search included the REQUIREMENT that there was none of the post 2006ish exhaust treatment BS. No DEF for this guy. So sick of the whole ignorant (masses) but profitable EPA BS.

Tonight on the way back from our 5th wheel there was a POS "green" car in front of me. A Nissan Leaf with a big old factory badge proclaiming that big fat lie......."zero emissions". That crap chaps my hide.


And now using my tax dollars to fund a bogus legal case to then extort a company into buying up diesel engines so that all we're left with is the worthless post DEF crap.


Aynn Rand warned us about the makers and the takers......but not enough listened.



I'm with Oscar!!!!!!!

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

the older the better for them to hit that target. Especially pre-2007s which didn't require the exhaust treatment systems.

The difference in allowed NOx output between my engine (a 2003) and one that meets the 2015 EPA standards is 500X. But on the other hand these old engines aren't run very often (if at all). There must be some formula for calculating the benefits of deleting one of these engines based on the emissions per horsepower/mile and the number of miles they're still likely to be run, but I didn't see any indication of that.

[PorchDog]

I'm with Ham Skoolie and Oscar.

Those engines they sold as 2009 MET the 2009 Emissions regulations-- I mean how much more stringent could the 2010 requirements have been??

The EPA has unlimited legal resources. Hard to fight that. What scares me is what has happened in California where they have basically banned older diesels such that they cannot operate in California. I have three 12 valve Dodge pickups, and one 24 valve pre emission Dodge, and I wonder when they will tell me I can't drive them any more.

What irritates me is that in the past-- all a vehicle had to do was meet the emission standard in effect at the time of manufacture -- to impose restrictions retroactive is like making you go back and put seatbelts in a 1964 Impala.

I am fortunate to be in a non-emission inspection state.

[DeMac]

About 7,750 engines ought to be destroyed.

The core of the case is in regards to a specific 7,749 engines and the EPA's definition of the terms "model year" and "produced" versus Navistar's definition of same.

The legal definition of Model Year:
"model year for an engine family ends either when the last such engine is produced, or on December 31 of the calendar year for which the model year is named, whichever date is sooner."

Navistar began building these engines during model year 2009 by installing crankshafts in engine blocks. The engines were completed between January 2010 and October 2010, after the new emissions standards took effect.



My real concern is that the EPA is moving into the used market. Coercing private entities into retroactively seeking their industry's old products & permanently disable them before RossVTaylor can bring them back to life. Seems like an unfair consumer tactic.

There are also EPA grants/rebates being offered to public & private fleet owners ($20,000-$65,000 per bus) in exchange for scrapping (not used market) their older diesels for newer diesels, gasoline, propane. The higher $ range is offered for CNG/LNG, electric hydrogen, replacement.
https://www.epa.gov/dera/rebates
(10:1 rebate details)

When "...number known to exist..." is a factor, prices increase significantly.

[s2mikon]

I think it said "This vehicle is certified for sale and use in the State of California" I don't remember a date of expiration. Would that be an ex post facto law? Hell forget it. We live in a post constitutional America now.

[s2mikon]

I have a better idea. Lets start managing the forests better so we don't have so many fires and pollute the air and burn down peoples houses and we can have nice places to camp and fish in.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by DeMac

About 7,750 engines ought to be destroyed.

The core of the case is in regards to a specific 7,749 engines and the EPA's definition of the terms "model year" and "produced" versus Navistar's definition of same.

The legal definition of Model Year:
"model year for an engine family ends either when the last such engine is produced, or on December 31 of the calendar year for which the model year is named, whichever date is sooner."

Navistar began building these engines during model year 2009 by installing crankshafts in engine blocks. The engines were completed between January 2010 and October 2010, after the new emissions standards took effect.



My real concern is that the EPA is moving into the used market. Coercing private entities into retroactively seeking their industry's old products & permanently disable them before RossVTaylor can bring them back to life. Seems like an unfair consumer tactic.

There are also EPA grants/rebates being offered to public & private fleet owners ($20,000-$65,000 per bus) in exchange for scrapping (not used market) their older diesels for newer diesels, gasoline, propane. The higher $ range is offered for CNG/LNG, electric hydrogen, replacement.
https://www.epa.gov/dera/rebates
(10:1 rebate details)

When "...number known to exist..." is a factor, prices increase significantly.

If they wanted to take my buses off the road for that kinda money I'd be on my way to the bank.

[DoubleO7]

That 20k to 65k incentive is probably only 10% of the bus you have to buy before you get that $$ rebate.