Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-27-2021, 10:00 AM   #1
Bus Nut
 
DeMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 561
Coachwork: Integrated Coach Corp.
Chassis: RE-300 42ft
Engine: 466ci
Rated Cap: 90
Seek and Destroy Bounty, EPA & Navistar's New Deal

The EPA & Navistar have negotiated a settlement to their lawsuit agreeing that Navistar will procure & destroy 'older' diesel engines. Cheap retired buses are a likely source for the numbers they require.

The consent decree requires Navistar (now VW/Triton) to acquire older, high-polluting HDDEs from the used HDDE market and destroy enough of them to result in at least 10,000 tons of NOx emissions reduction.

Navistar may permanently destroy any combination of on-highway HDDEs from model year 2009 or older that are used to power Class 4-8 heavy-duty diesel trucks, transit, intercity, or school buses, or any other on-highway heavy duty diesel vehicles or any combination of heavy-duty nonroad diesel engines subject to Tier 1, 2, 3, or 4.

(EPA's Report, Oct. 25, 2021)
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/nav...enalty-federal
(Decree details)
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/navi...act-settlement

Store your Smokin' Joes in a safe place. I expect the EPA will soon pressure other manufacturers into becoming bounty hunters.

__________________
Frederick Douglass:
“To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker. It is just as criminal to rob a man of his right to speak and hear as it would be to rob him of his money.”
DeMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 10:32 AM   #2
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 647
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
When did this come out??

Used parts and new parts for items exclusive for that age of engines just jumped up.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 11:04 AM   #3
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,405
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMac View Post
The EPA & Navistar have negotiated a settlement to their lawsuit agreeing that Navistar will procure & destroy 'older' diesel engines. Cheap retired buses are a likely source for the numbers they require.

The consent decree requires Navistar (now VW/Triton) to acquire older, high-polluting HDDEs from the used HDDE market and destroy enough of them to result in at least 10,000 tons of NOx emissions reduction.

Navistar may permanently destroy any combination of on-highway HDDEs from model year 2009 or older that are used to power Class 4-8 heavy-duty diesel trucks, transit, intercity, or school buses, or any other on-highway heavy duty diesel vehicles or any combination of heavy-duty nonroad diesel engines subject to Tier 1, 2, 3, or 4.

(EPA's Report, Oct. 25, 2021)
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/nav...enalty-federal
(Decree details)
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/navi...act-settlement

Store your Smokin' Joes in a safe place. I expect the EPA will soon pressure other manufacturers into becoming bounty hunters.
Dang- I'd say it was a good idea if all they were going after were Maxxforce and 365's. A lot of folks buy those thinking they've gotten a great deal only to find out "newer isn't better". Sucks that they're going back to tier 1.
__________________
.
Wear A Mask- Stop the Spread!
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 11:22 AM   #4
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 647
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
Reading the first link, it appears there is no limit on how far back they can go taking out on-road engines.
Off-road engines are limited to tier one or newer (1996)??
Of course the article might not be showing all the details and the era of any engine to be removed is 1996 or newer.
Along with an eligible engine must be running or repairable to running condition.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 01:28 PM   #5
Bus Nut
 
s2mikon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NM USA KD6WJG
Posts: 970
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE 40 FEET
Engine: Cummins 8.3
Basically it means that only the junk will be left. NWO you will own nothing and love it.
__________________
Why can't I get Ivermectin for my horses?
s2mikon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:06 PM   #6
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 647
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikon View Post
Basically it means that only the junk will be left. NWO you will own nothing and love it.

But we will own a fraction of everything.
But it won't be big enough to do anything with.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:14 PM   #7
Bus Nut
 
s2mikon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NM USA KD6WJG
Posts: 970
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE 40 FEET
Engine: Cummins 8.3
First it is the insurance companies, then the road side assistance people and now all the older vehicles and engines. Does not look like a very bright future for us. What will be next?
__________________
Why can't I get Ivermectin for my horses?
s2mikon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:18 PM   #8
Bus Nut
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 454
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
That Tree is looking pretty durned thirsty these days.
__________________
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, that we can now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing.
The United States Marines, America's 911 force -- 6531, 3521 '79-'99
Retired mech (auto/aviation), Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:27 PM   #9
Bus Nut
 
s2mikon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NM USA KD6WJG
Posts: 970
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE 40 FEET
Engine: Cummins 8.3
And it will be watered. Don't know when, but it will.
__________________
Why can't I get Ivermectin for my horses?
s2mikon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 10:30 PM   #10
Bus Nut
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 454
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
Sooner than I thought until the last 10 years or so. Now I think the tinder is all piled up and just waiting for the spark.
__________________
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, that we can now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing.
The United States Marines, America's 911 force -- 6531, 3521 '79-'99
Retired mech (auto/aviation), Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 02:26 AM   #11
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Lebanon, Indiana
Posts: 825
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Winnebago
Chassis: Ford F53
Engine: Ford Triton V-10
Rated Cap: currently 2
VW just can't seem to comply with the EPA's rules for the diesel market! LoL

I don't think this settlement appears all that dire though for this community. The requirement to mitigate 10k tons of CO2s seems to be an overall number, not like 10k per year. So the number of actual diesel units involved is probably a few thousand and the older the better for them to hit that target. Especially pre-2007s which didn't require the exhaust treatment systems.

Also the target regions must be 'disproportionately effected' which is political correctness speak for poor and ethnically diverse communities. So most likely Navistar will do a deal with a few key cities to buy some of their old diesel city buses and those cities will use the money to start an electric bus changeover program. They come out looking like the good guys in all this if they spin the media coverage right!
Sehnsucht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 02:49 AM   #12
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Fraser Valley British Columbia
Posts: 1,028
Year: 2007
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: C7 Cat
Future generations have never looked back at a civil unrest of this magnitude and said “maybe the government was right”
James Hewton

Stay safe

Oscar
Oscar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 04:31 AM   #13
Bus Nut
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 454
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
Our bus search included the REQUIREMENT that there was none of the post 2006ish exhaust treatment BS. No DEF for this guy. So sick of the whole ignorant (masses) but profitable EPA BS.

Tonight on the way back from our 5th wheel there was a POS "green" car in front of me. A Nissan Leaf with a big old factory badge proclaiming that big fat lie......."zero emissions". That crap chaps my hide.


And now using my tax dollars to fund a bogus legal case to then extort a company into buying up diesel engines so that all we're left with is the worthless post DEF crap.


Aynn Rand warned us about the makers and the takers......but not enough listened.



I'm with Oscar!!!!!!!
__________________
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, that we can now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing.
The United States Marines, America's 911 force -- 6531, 3521 '79-'99
Retired mech (auto/aviation), Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 09:50 AM   #14
Bus Geek
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,103
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sehnsucht View Post
the older the better for them to hit that target. Especially pre-2007s which didn't require the exhaust treatment systems.
The difference in allowed NOx output between my engine (a 2003) and one that meets the 2015 EPA standards is 500X. But on the other hand these old engines aren't run very often (if at all). There must be some formula for calculating the benefits of deleting one of these engines based on the emissions per horsepower/mile and the number of miles they're still likely to be run, but I didn't see any indication of that.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 12:05 PM   #15
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Alabama
Posts: 57
Year: 1996
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DT 466 P-Pump
Rated Cap: 34
I'm with Ham Skoolie and Oscar.

Those engines they sold as 2009 MET the 2009 Emissions regulations-- I mean how much more stringent could the 2010 requirements have been??

The EPA has unlimited legal resources. Hard to fight that. What scares me is what has happened in California where they have basically banned older diesels such that they cannot operate in California. I have three 12 valve Dodge pickups, and one 24 valve pre emission Dodge, and I wonder when they will tell me I can't drive them any more.

What irritates me is that in the past-- all a vehicle had to do was meet the emission standard in effect at the time of manufacture -- to impose restrictions retroactive is like making you go back and put seatbelts in a 1964 Impala.

I am fortunate to be in a non-emission inspection state.
PorchDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 12:13 PM   #16
Bus Nut
 
DeMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 561
Coachwork: Integrated Coach Corp.
Chassis: RE-300 42ft
Engine: 466ci
Rated Cap: 90
About 7,750 engines ought to be destroyed.

The core of the case is in regards to a specific 7,749 engines and the EPA's definition of the terms "model year" and "produced" versus Navistar's definition of same.

The legal definition of Model Year:
"model year for an engine family ends either when the last such engine is produced, or on December 31 of the calendar year for which the model year is named, whichever date is sooner."


Navistar began building these engines during model year 2009 by installing crankshafts in engine blocks. The engines were completed between January 2010 and October 2010, after the new emissions standards took effect.



My real concern is that the EPA is moving into the used market. Coercing private entities into retroactively seeking their industry's old products & permanently disable them before RossVTaylor can bring them back to life. Seems like an unfair consumer tactic.

There are also EPA grants/rebates being offered to public & private fleet owners ($20,000-$65,000 per bus) in exchange for scrapping (not used market) their older diesels for newer diesels, gasoline, propane. The higher $ range is offered for CNG/LNG, electric hydrogen, replacement.
https://www.epa.gov/dera/rebates
(10:1 rebate details)

When "...number known to exist..." is a factor, prices increase significantly.
__________________
Frederick Douglass:
“To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker. It is just as criminal to rob a man of his right to speak and hear as it would be to rob him of his money.”
DeMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 12:17 PM   #17
Bus Nut
 
s2mikon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NM USA KD6WJG
Posts: 970
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE 40 FEET
Engine: Cummins 8.3
I think it said "This vehicle is certified for sale and use in the State of California" I don't remember a date of expiration. Would that be an ex post facto law? Hell forget it. We live in a post constitutional America now.
__________________
Why can't I get Ivermectin for my horses?
s2mikon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 12:23 PM   #18
Bus Nut
 
s2mikon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NM USA KD6WJG
Posts: 970
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE 40 FEET
Engine: Cummins 8.3
I have a better idea. Lets start managing the forests better so we don't have so many fires and pollute the air and burn down peoples houses and we can have nice places to camp and fish in.
__________________
Why can't I get Ivermectin for my horses?
s2mikon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 01:01 PM   #19
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,405
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMac View Post
About 7,750 engines ought to be destroyed.

The core of the case is in regards to a specific 7,749 engines and the EPA's definition of the terms "model year" and "produced" versus Navistar's definition of same.

The legal definition of Model Year:
"model year for an engine family ends either when the last such engine is produced, or on December 31 of the calendar year for which the model year is named, whichever date is sooner."


Navistar began building these engines during model year 2009 by installing crankshafts in engine blocks. The engines were completed between January 2010 and October 2010, after the new emissions standards took effect.



My real concern is that the EPA is moving into the used market. Coercing private entities into retroactively seeking their industry's old products & permanently disable them before RossVTaylor can bring them back to life. Seems like an unfair consumer tactic.

There are also EPA grants/rebates being offered to public & private fleet owners ($20,000-$65,000 per bus) in exchange for scrapping (not used market) their older diesels for newer diesels, gasoline, propane. The higher $ range is offered for CNG/LNG, electric hydrogen, replacement.
https://www.epa.gov/dera/rebates
(10:1 rebate details)

When "...number known to exist..." is a factor, prices increase significantly.
If they wanted to take my buses off the road for that kinda money I'd be on my way to the bank.
__________________
.
Wear A Mask- Stop the Spread!
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 02:14 PM   #20
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 647
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
That 20k to 65k incentive is probably only 10% of the bus you have to buy before you get that $$ rebate.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel emmisions, epa, epa destruction, navistar emissions, pre-epa

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.