Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-24-2015, 04:28 PM   #21
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 1,841
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycal View Post
I don't want to start a crap storm but this is one reason I am against a roof raise. Some just don't have the structural engineering experience to do the job properly, like me. I don't always admit my shortcomings but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis...and defer to the school bus engineers.
I agree as well. I'm not saying the roof raises on here are shoddy, but a standard bus is engineered good enough to provide safety in certain roll overs. I understand the wrecked busses were heavily modified and obviously unsafe. But I still feel that after a raise, all of the engineering went out the window, and the bus would no longer be safe. Just my $.02
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2015, 09:55 PM   #22
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 22,470
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
They weren't necessarily heavily modded. Just old worn out buses with lots of the ribs cut out.
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2015, 01:11 AM   #23
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycal View Post
I don't want to start a crap storm but this is one reason I am against a roof raise. Some just don't have the structural engineering experience to do the job properly, like me. I don't always admit my shortcomings but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis...and defer to the school bus engineers.

That's why I lifted mine and installed windows the way Blue Bird would have if a bus had been ordered to the specs I needed.

Only every second rib can be cut for window placement.

That's how Blue Bird builds it's trip buses with large horizontal RV style sliders.

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2015, 07:04 AM   #24
Bus Geek
 
bansil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: MNT CITY TN
Posts: 5,158
an 80K pound truck rolling at 75 mph, will destroy school buses with or with out ribs, it's the law of physics
__________________
Our build La Tortuga
Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.
George S. Patton
bansil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2015, 12:33 PM   #25
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
Posts: 1,729
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: B3800 Short bus
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 36
Ever so slightly off topic, but I came across this video of a Class C motorhome crash test while reading an RV site urging people to wear seat belts while underway:



The dummy in the overhead loft wouldn't have faired so well...

The vehicle was only travelling at 48km/h (30mph).
__________________
My build page: Armageddon - The Smell of Airborne Rust
jazty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2015, 12:56 PM   #26
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
Posts: 1,729
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: B3800 Short bus
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 36
More fun crash test videos of a Class C with way-too-cheery music from Bailey crash tests motorhomes to improve safety | Motorhome News:


^ check out all the stuff flying around. After this one they decided that the fridge and oven needed to be bolted down.. No ****, geniuses...






^ Check out the effectiveness of the seatbelt for the passenger closest to the camera.


^ that's better.

But seriously.. Did they actually need to run crash tests to determine these issues? Seems like common sense...
__________________
My build page: Armageddon - The Smell of Airborne Rust
jazty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 01:25 PM   #27
Bus Nut
 
Skunky Bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa
Posts: 421
Year: 1976
Coachwork: Wayne
Chassis: Dodge S-600
Engine: 360 V8
Rated Cap: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bansil View Post
an 80K pound truck rolling at 75 mph, will destroy school buses with or with out ribs, it's the law of physics
If a semi hit a stix-n-staples RV (including mine) like in this accident, it would reduce the RV to a chassis with pieces scattered beyond it.

Nonetheless, Booyah and Crazycal make some valid points about improperly done roof raises: your bus could end up like one of those Carpenters with defective roof welds if it rolls over.

Ben Rosander's book, Select and Convert Your Bus Into a Motorhome on a Shoestring, has a very good chapter on roof raises, including frank warnings about what you need to know in order to do it right. Likewise for some of the threads right here on skoolie.net.

By the time I become proficient enough at welding to raise my roof, I may end up concluding, "Screw it and just duck."
__________________
Any action for which there is no logical explanation will be deemed "company policy."
- Akvol's Second Law of the Corporation
Skunky Bus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 01:40 PM   #28
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Not just Carpenter.

Both of my BlueBirds had every weld broken.

They had vary few loose rivets.

As I always say, Bus body's are meant to be riveted together, not welded.

Welds just can't flex and absorb the fatigue that rivets can.

Anyone doing a roof raise would be better off using VHB tape VS welding.

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 01:51 PM   #29
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 22,470
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Properly welded, its one piece of steel. what is the shear strength of a rivet or a bolt?
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 02:17 AM   #30
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Properly welded, its one piece of steel. what is the shear strength of a rivet or a bolt?
However, pieces in a bus body need to stay flexible so that they don't crack, rip, ect.

Also, no weld in any bus I have ever seen was welded properly.

Galvanized metal, haste of production, lack of surface prep, welds in poor locations, ect.

If a multi million dollar bus manufacture can't get the welds right in a production shop, how do you think your little Chinese welder is going to do welding outside in the elements, with a unskilled do it DIY guy running it?

Bus body's are build with rivets for a reason.

This is pointed at no one directly. This is posted mainly for the new members.

I'm trying to emphasize to the new folks that you don't need a welder to do a roof raise. Far too many fear and don't raise the roof due to this non sense.

Let's open possibility, not close the door on them.

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 06:56 AM   #31
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 22,470
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Hey we can both agree that theres no ONE way to skin ANY cat.

But my welder ISN'T Chinese., You seem to think welding is alchemy.

Quote:
The Hobart Handler 140 is made in the U.S.A. and backed by Hobart's industry-leading 5𣛧 industrial warranty.
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 07:11 AM   #32
Bus Nut
 
austin1989us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 313
Year: 1988
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC/2000
Engine: Cummins 5.9TA
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
You seem to think welding is alchemy.


Welding is kinda magic. I've seen intergranular stress corrosion cracking in the HAZ of well qualified welds before. No one could explain why or could've seen it coming. Anodes didn't help. A lot can go wrong with welds that you never think would happen.
austin1989us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2015, 07:13 AM   #33
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 22,470
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
I've seen bolts and rivets snap.
I've pulled welds with a frame machine and the metal sheared before the weld would fail.
We aren't talking about welding one inch think steel here... This is the kind of welding your car is made of. WHen you wreck your car it goes to an autobody shop... They sometimes weld...
If rivets were better, then they'd be riveting the roll cages together for nascar/ihra...

For me its welding>adhesives>fasteners
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 07:12 PM   #34
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
I'm not saying the roof raises on here are shoddy, but a standard bus is engineered good enough to provide safety in certain roll overs. I understand the wrecked busses were heavily modified and obviously unsafe. But I still feel that after a raise, all of the engineering went out the window, and the bus would no longer be safe. Just my $.02
This has been my perspective all along. School bus ribs are one-piece formed steel from floor-left to floor-right to create a seamless 'cage' to which the horizontal ribs and skin is riveted. After all, isn't this the fundamental reason we build skoolies instead of RVs?!

Now if you're going through the trouble to cut the rib into three pieces and bolt/weld/rivet it all back together, what I'm wondering is this... Would it be more in keeping with the intent of the original design and safety characteristics to lift the roof AND walls from the floor level? It appears that the ribs extend down past the floor level to the skirt so why not just 'take up the hemline' and raise that skirt up to the floor level? Even if it means relocating some windows, isn't all that fabrication for the 'raised roof gap' just as much if not more labor than retapping a few window frames, not to mention many or most of the original windows are covered over anyways.

Just a thought and what I'm trying to wrap my own head around before I commit to my first bus.
jake_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2015, 02:01 AM   #35
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake_blue View Post

It appears that the ribs extend down past the floor level to the skirt so why not just 'take up the hemline' and raise that skirt up to the floor level?
The support ribs (hat channels) do not run down to the skirt passed the floor.

They stop about half a inch from the floor, where they rivet to the chair rail on the inside, and the outer skin on the outside.

As little as 6 rivets hold the bottoms in place.

The chair rail rivets are the big 1/4 solid core. The outer skin rivets are the little 1/8th and 3/16. This tells me most of the weight is transfered from the support ribs to the chair rail.

In my case I needed and wanted bigger window openings. Cutting the support ribs at center of the original windows worked best for what I wanted and needed.

Being I was the first to have proper support rib extensions made to the same shape as the original support ribs, I feel I have the strongest roof raise on skoolie.net.

Using square pipe that don't quite fit right, round pipe, ect don't cut it IMO. Using crap like that is nothing more than a hack of a mess waiting to fail.

Also too many members seem to think fatiguing the steel to no end with a welder is a good idea. The bus was build with rivets for the same reason a air plane is build with rivets. Welding on the thin 16ga support ribs is as bad as welding the frame of your bus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
I've seen bolts and rivets snap.
I've pulled welds with a frame machine and the metal sheared before the weld would fail.
We aren't talking about welding one inch think steel here... This is the kind of welding your car is made of. WHen you wreck your car it goes to an autobody shop... They sometimes weld...
If rivets were better, then they'd be riveting the roll cages together for nascars

For me its welding>adhesives>fasteners
Welding one inch think steel is the right way to attach it. Welding 16 ga sheet steel is not.

No welding is done on cars today. They simply change the bent body parts.

If nascar roll cages were made from 16 ga steel, they would be riveted together.

Anything that need to take movement is riveted, not welded.
Just like the internal steel framework for skyscrapers. Again, rivets, not welding.

Proper order of modern fastening is like this.

Adhesives, rivets, welding.

Proper riveting can be done by anyone.

Proper welding needs to be done by a professional, in a shop, with minimum $10,000 in tools. Way to much to go wrong for the DIY person.

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2015, 08:55 AM   #36
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_ster View Post
The support ribs (hat channels) do not run down to the skirt passed the floor.

They stop about half a inch from the floor, where they rivet to the chair rail on the inside, and the outer skin on the outside.

As little as 6 rivets hold the bottoms in place.

The chair rail rivets are the big 1/4 solid core. The outer skin rivets are the little 1/8th and 3/16. This tells me most of the weight is transfered from the support ribs to the chair rail.

Nat
Gotcha, and I suppose that makes sense from the manufacturing standpoint as long as the bus has enough integrity to withstand the various accident scenarios states and fed throw at them. So the structure I'm seeing underneath these buses don't represent core structural components but rather only superficial skirting support? That's kind of a bummer but at least it settles that conundrum in my mind once and for all.

Thanks for the illumination.
jake_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2015, 12:19 PM   #37
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
This might help.



Skirt supports are spaced every fifth floor support, and riveted with two rivets at the top to that floor support.

More highly detailed pics of bus deconstruction can be found in my latest build thread.

http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/th...ime-10138.html

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2015, 12:41 PM   #38
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 252
Awesome! Yes, I'm a visual person so this makes even more sense.
jake_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×