Are converted buses still subject to DOT regulations?

[crowcreekcabin]

I had old 7.00/20 split rim 5 hole budd rims when I started...

Now: 245/75/225 Goodyears on new special order tubeless rims (7 of them).

Super happy.

I won't give the total for this conversion, but $1000 was in the rear view mirror for sure. I think it cost that much to discuss the project with my tire guy on the phone.. I jokes..

Good modern tires and wheels make me feel better than any roadside assistance insurance ever. Al-Can highway 2X with no tire trouble!!

Budget troubles understood, been there... try for the cheapest new ones ya can, or the most expensive used ones..?.. thats all I got..

[mmoore6856]

Originally Posted by s2mikon

First this post is for general knowledge and not to bang the OP over the head. After all he did ask for advise. Now that we have that out of the way here goes.
Lets analyze this for a minute. Tires are marked on the sidewall with a lot of information. First there is a serial number to help with recalls. Second there is a date code. Tires age just like food. Only a fool drives on out dated tires and eats out dated food. Then there is the tire load and inflation data. Maximum inflation and weight limits for dual and single use are stated in plain English. If you rode the long bus to school you will weigh the front and rear axles and make sure that those weights don’t go over the tire or axle ratings. Michelin used to recommend a 10% safety margin on coach and bus use. Then there is the speed rating. Again if you rode the long bus you don’t run a 65 MPH tire at 80 MPH. Then there is the tire position indicator. This tells you if it is a drive, steer, all position or trailer tire. Tires are designed and tailored for steer axles to take the side loading while cornering, and give better traction in corners. Drive tires provide better drive torque for rear axles. All position tires are for all axles and a compromise. And then trailer tires are for trailers. We may not have to go through the scales and be inspected but we are still responsible for the safe operation of our conversions. Gross negligence causing death or bodily harm in a crash can land you in the state penitentiary. If you are lucky you will only be sued for negligence and find that insurance is next to impossible to get again. Driving these skoolie / coach conversions is serious business and I see a lot of posts on here that illustrates a severe lack of knowledge and a flippant attitude toward safety in general. This is also true of the other RV forums online but not as bad as here. There are also some very well informed members here too. As much as I dislike government regulations I am beginning to think that a training class and CDL should be required to drive one of these buses, but that opens up another can of worms.

Finally some truth here.

[mmoore6856]

Originally Posted by Seriousracer

Ohh by the way that semi gets less mileage then some motorhomes.

.

Most otr average 120,000 a year. Team trucks do over 250,000 a year. Me and my codriver did 650,000 on a 2019 freightliner in 26 months and i know other teams that exceeded that. Guess i pissed further

[brinleyinthewoods]

My husband has a cdl A and drives a 10 yd dump truck for a living, he said recaps are not allowed as steer tires.( commercially. It is a safety issue. If front tire gives way because of a recap, you will crash.) They are cheaper, but never use as front tires.

[ewo1]

This was quite a disappointing thread.... I mean....people come here from all walks of life all chasing the same dream, or fantasy, of building something with their bare hands seeking/ asking for the good natured and constructive advice of others.

To see the name calling; chest pounding and pissing contests.... there really is no reason for this. It doesn’t help at all!

Some folks are right, some are partially right while others might take a wild guess the one thing in common is that they are trying to help out to the best of their knowledge and experience.

If someone is wrong please be somewhat political in your response and provide solid evidence on why you feel their wrong but please, the insults....leave them in the toilet bowl, flush, then get back to your keyboard and treat others like you would like them to treat you and your family... with respect and dignity.

If you can’t do that then please just go buy a built RV and enjoy life!


My early Sunday morning sermon.

[mmoore6856]

Read the law section 393.75 only passenger carring vehicles are barred from recaps on steer. It is legal for commercial and private trucks and rvs. They even make steer axel recaps. This is in the book every truck driver ( even dump trucks) is required to carry in his truck. Quit telling fibs about steer recaps and read the law. Now i dont recomend it or will do it myself im tired of the lies here

[ewo1]

Originally Posted by mmoore6856

Read the law section 393.75 only passenger carring vehicles are barred from recaps on steer. It is legal for commercial and private trucks and rvs. They even make steer axel recaps. This is in the book every truck driver ( even dump trucks) is required to carry in his truck. Quit telling fibs about steer recaps and read the law. Now i dont recomend it or will do it myself im tired of the lies here

Thank you !
393,75 for those who do not know is the
FMCSA - federal Motor Carrier Safety Act.

Link-> https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulation...section/393.75

On the abbreviated one page doc it clearly identifies busses.

It says busses can have retreads on the back but not the front.
Since ours are “converted” and no longer identified on paper as a bus common sense the law does not apply.

Ok... no problem, the law may not apply. Don’t get too excited though.

Then there is plain old common sense...

I personally know what it is like when a retread decides to peel like a banana. It will make you alert for sure!

But a tire peeling on the front..... Suicide!!!

These tires don’t just peel at low speed on city streets. They tend to peel when your doing highway speeds.... at 70 mph in a big bus...sorry, Rv....the tire will peel, slap like an angry gremlin at the underside of your bus and yes it is possible that it could take out the tandem tire too, especially if you can’t stop and got to keep driving.

But on the front? No way Jose! Not me!

Don’t get me wrong, in a pinch with absolutely no other tire around, I”ll put one on the front but I ain’t gonna do highway speed and I’m gonna find another tire right quick!

It is really a great idea to learn the laws. Don’t make a difference if it legally applies to you or not. Knowledge is power and with good knowledge I’m sure you can make some good smart and safe decisions.

This is about safety, NOT EGO !!!

[rossvtaylor]

I'm surprised nobody seems to have read...or at least commented on...the study I linked to...done by the University of Michigan, sponsored by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration...which found that retreaded/recapped tires were no more likely to fail than virgin tires. People here, who have practical experience and are knowledgable, state they see more recap failures than virgin tire failures. I believe that. If their observations follow the study findings, they should see 6 recap tire failures for every 4 virgin tire failures. But that may be because there are 6 recaps out there on the road for every 4 virgin tire, according to the study's findings.

I try to be really data driven and I just haven't seen anything except anecdotal observations to support the idea that modern recapped/retreaded tires are more likely to fail. And the study I linked to didn't find any difference...and it was a pretty well-done study, I thought. They found that low tire pressure was the primary cause of failure in all cases, if I remember correctly, so keeping tabs on that is super important to safety.

Again...as I stated before...I run only virgin tires on the front, even when our buses are no longer buses. So I'm not recommending recaps on the front. But I don't see any data to indicate that doing so is less safe than a virgin tire.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

In all my years of driving, no company has ever run recaps on the steering axle, legal or not.
The only exception was a farmer I started with, and that was only when I had a flat on a Sunday, took one of the drive tires and stuck it on the steer to get home. It was later returned to the drive axle and a replacement virgin steer tire was installed.

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by mmoore6856

Read the law section 393.75 only passenger carring vehicles are barred from recaps on steer. It is legal for commercial and private trucks and rvs. They even make steer axel recaps. This is in the book every truck driver ( even dump trucks) is required to carry in his truck. Quit telling fibs about steer recaps and read the law. Now i dont recomend it or will do it myself im tired of the lies here

Dear god thank you for posting the code.

I don't know how many times I've seen people talk about what is or isn't allowed per the "law" referring to the FMCSA, but when asked to produce the applicable code, never seem to be able to find it. Or when they do find it they ignore the section on scope or applicability.

I'm sure you're aware, but others may not be, so it is worth noting again, and every time the FMCSA is brought up, that almost every single code of the FMCSA does not apply to us. Each section typically has something similar to the following.

"§393.1 Scope of the rules in this part.
(a) The rules in this part establish minimum standards for commercial motor vehicles as defined in §390.5 of this title. Only motor vehicles (as defined in §390.5) and combinations of motor vehicles which meet the definition of a commercial motor vehicle are subject to the requirements of this part. All requirements that refer to motor vehicles with a GVWR below 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) are applicable only when the motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles meets the definition of a commercial motor vehicle."

We can then go look at §390.5 and see that,
"§390.5 Definitions.
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—..."

As a former school bus used for personal travel regardless of size is not "used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property", the entirety of §393 does not apply to us.

I really wish more people understood how to read the law.

Thanks again for posting the code.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

I'm surprised nobody seems to have read...or at least commented on...the study I linked to...done by the University of Michigan, sponsored by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration...which found that retreaded/recapped tires were no more likely to fail than virgin tires. People here, who have practical experience and are knowledgable, state they see more recap failures than virgin tire failures. I believe that. If their observations follow the study findings, they should see 6 recap tire failures for every 4 virgin tire failures. But that may be because there are 6 recaps out there on the road for every 4 virgin tire, according to the study's findings.

I try to be really data driven and I just haven't seen anything except anecdotal observations to support the idea that modern recapped/retreaded tires are more likely to fail. And the study I linked to didn't find any difference...and it was a pretty well-done study, I thought. They found that low tire pressure was the primary cause of failure in all cases, if I remember correctly, so keeping tabs on that is super important to safety.

Again...as I stated before...I run only virgin tires on the front, even when our buses are no longer buses. So I'm not recommending recaps on the front. But I don't see any data to indicate that doing so is less safe than a virgin tire.

I read it.

Didn't find the 6-4 number you cited. I did find that retread tires accounted for 85% of the non-passenger-vehicle/light-truck (aka commercial stuff) tire failures. Which is about the same failure ratio that I see in the shop.

IMO, most commercial failures are caused by road hazards. The most recent one in the shop was actually a virgin tire that failed, and it was was caused by a pothole, which damaged the sidewall and caused it to zipper. Most tire failures are caused by overloading/underinflation. Those are usually caused by nails/screws causing air leaks. Or you can fault the driver being neglectful and not doing a pre-trip, which would catch/repair the leak long before it becomes an issue.

Passenger vehicles predominantly run virgins, and it's alarming seeing the number of people running around on low tires, even with a light on the dash explicitly telling them so.

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

I read it.

Didn't find the 6-4 number you cited. I did find that retread tires accounted for 85% of the non-passenger-vehicle/light-truck (aka commercial stuff) tire failures. Which is about the same failure ratio that I see in the shop.

IMO, most commercial failures are caused by road hazards. The most recent one was actually a virgin tire that failed, and it was was caused by a pothole, which damaged the sidewall and caused it to zipper. Most tire failures are caused by overloading/underinflation. Those are usually caused by nails/screws causing air leaks. Or you can fault the driver being neglectful and not doing a pre-trip, which would catch/repair the leak long before it becomes an issue.

Passenger vehicles predominantly run virgins, and it's alarming seeing the number of people running around on low tires, even with a light on the dash explicitly telling them so.

It's been a while since I read that...so I may be off on the ratio. Don't hold me to that, but I thought I remembered that the ratio of failed tires aligned with the ratio of tire types on the road. I'll have to re-read that.

I appreciate your insight and agree with the low tire comments, completely. Thanks, sir!

[john61ct]

The fact that the law does not **require** us to follow that, does not mean we shouldn't follow them voluntarily as recommendations.

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The fact that the law does not **require** us to follow that, does not mean we shouldn't follow them voluntarily as recommendations.

I can appreciate that line of thinking. But often the guidance is not presented as, "this is best practice," and more as, "the law says you have to," usually without any reference to the actual "law". As a staunch libertarian, I get my back up anytime someone tells me that I am forced/disallowed some action because of some law, only to find out that they really have no idea what they're talking about, and are only repeating something they heard, albeit rather loudly and fervently.

[ewo1]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The fact that the law does not **require** us to follow that, does not mean we shouldn't follow them voluntarily as recommendations.

Right on.. said it better than I could!

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The fact that the law does not **require** us to follow that, does not mean we shouldn't follow them voluntarily as recommendations.

My understanding is that the Feds are given the power of controlling interstate commerce, not vehicle safety, via the Constitution, and that "powers not expressly given to the Feds are reserved for the States".


Therefore, the Feds really don't have a say in your RV. But they are trying to do what is best anyway.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome

My understanding is that the Feds are given the power of controlling interstate commerce, not vehicle safety, via the Constitution, and that "powers not expressly given to the Feds are reserved for the States".


Therefore, the Feds really don't have a say in your RV. But they are trying to do what is best anyway.

It follows that most (if not all) states, as a rule, follow the federal laws on tires and various other highway safety regs. One exception where the states are more strict is tire chains during winter months, for (what should be) obvious reasons. An interstate hauler going exclusively from Florida to Texas may never need tire chains, one running Alaska to the Pacific Northwest states may need them frequently. So it doesn't make sense for the Feds to pass a "One Size Fits All" law requiring them, this is left to the various states.
As such, even if the Federal law does not prohibit recapped steer tires, do all states allow it as well? All cities or counties? Do you want to find out the hard way one (or more) prohibit that?

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

Do you want to find out the hard way one (or more) prohibit that?

If you are asking me specifically, no. I wouldn't want retreads on my steer tires anyway. Maybe 2 of the 4 in back, 1 on each side, but only if I was desperate for cash flow. I would buy all new, top quality (Michelin). I played games with discount tires, and found they are never worth it in the long run.


If that is a rhetorical question, then sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled debate. Carry on, and thanks to all for the info one way or another.

[rossvtaylor]

Apologies...earlier I mentioned that the study I referenced estimated that 60% of the "semi" tires on the road were recaps and 40% were virgin. I just re-read the report, which I hadn't read in a while (and I'd slept since then...), and I actually had this reversed. The estimates are that 40% of the truck-sized tires are recapped and 60% are virgin. Here's the summary of the study's findings, after evaluating something like 86,000 tons of tire debris collected from roads and from tire shops:

10.4 Overall Study Conclusions

The analysis of tire fragments and casings collected in this study has found that the proportion of tire debris from retread tires and OE tires is similar to the estimated proportion of retread and OE tires in service. Indeed, the OE versus retread proportions of the collected tire debris broadly correlated with accepted industry expectations.

Additionally, there was no evidence to suggest that the proportion of tire fragments/shreds from retread tires was overrepresented in the debris items collected.
Examination of tire fragments and tire casings (where the OE or retread status was known) found that road hazard was the most common cause of tire failure, at 38 percent and 36 percent respectively. The analysis of tire casings found maintenance and operational issues accounted for 32 percent of the failures while over-defection accounted for 16 percent. Analysis of tire fragments found that excessive heat was evident in 30 percent of the samples examined. These results suggest that the majority of tire debris found on the Nation’s highways is not a result of manufacturing/process deficiencies. Similar findings are corroborated in earlier studies of tire debris.

The evaluation of available crash data shows that vehicle crashes related to truck tire failure and truck tire debris are very rare events that account for less than 1 percent of traffic crash involvements.

[Oscar1]

Hey Ross thanks for the follow up with that good information.
Cheers

Oscar