Downside to Vermont method

[firebuild]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Bizarre, hopefully you'll get a judge with common sense.

But BTW registration is based on where the **vehicle** is "habitually" located, nothing to do with the residence if the owner.

Millions of Americans have homes and vehicles in multiple states, the human can only have one legal domicile, but own properties, vehicles, businesses across the country.

Yeah I get that, and maybe I should have lied to the guy who pulled me over and told him I didn't live here when he trotted out those things as proof I did, but I figured with the RMV closed for Covid and the state refusing my proof of residency he'd understand my predicament. Alas, he did not.

[firebuild]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

Only problem as I understand it ( I admit I may not understand fully) is I can't register a bus in NJ unless it's been converted. So to get my bus to it's current location on a friend's farm I was able to get the former owner, a bus company, to have one of his drivers deliver it. I paid her and took her back to the bus yard afterward. After that I can't legally move the bus until it's been fully converted to NJ standards and inspected. Of course I can't get it inspected because I can't legally drive the bus to get it inspected. I assume to meet NJ's legal requirements I'd have to have some kind of commercial entity, tow company or maybe be professional driver with his own insurance, deliver the bus for inspection. I decided "screw it" I'll register it in VT, build it out then, if I haven't left this fine state, transfer the registration to NJ. As far as I'm concerned government is out of control. I don't feel the slightest bit guilty trying to find a way past the bureaucracy.

I don't think it's true that you can't register it in NJ if it's not converted; you just can't register it AS AN RV in NJ. As far as I know it's not illegal anywhere in the US for an individual to drive a repurposed commercial vehicle as long as the person is appropriately licensed, the vehicle is appropriately registered and insured, and any alterations (like removing the stop sign or painting - this varies state ot state) have been done. I don't know the law in NJ specifically but it many states it would be designated as a commercial vehicle for personal use. In MA, if you are not registering as an RV, you register first, inspect within a certain number of days (7 I think), which would allow you to drive it to an inspection center.

[witchywoman]

Originally Posted by firebuild

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this but I thought the point of the Vermont method from a skoolie standpoint was that you come out of the process with a title that says RV, then you take that title to your domicile state and convert to a title in THAT state that says RV, thus eliminating the need to prove your conversion to that home state in order to get a title there (if it's already an RV, they can't ask you to prove anything). Not that you leave VT plates on and drive around with them forever despite claiming a different state as your home state.

I was Under the same impression. I was planning to register my bus in Vermont then change it to VA. I won’t pass all Virginia’s requirements because I don’t plan on having certain features. Thus would help me get past that.

[Bert06840]

It seems we are making things way too complicated.

[Bert06840]

Why would you go to the DMV?

But yeah this was an actual car on the road in Brooklyn NY.

[Tickled Puppy]

I'm originally from California, where you saw a lot of people with Oregon plates because, at the time, they had a very low fee instead of California's complex and high fees depending on age and value. Over the years (I'm almost 70) I've lived in 5 states. I'm now in Vermont. Let me first explain why California, Wisconsin and other states will ticket cars or RVs with out-of-state plates... it is because the state relies on its fees for many services, and if you are evading them, yet living in the state, yes it IS defrauding the state, accept it or not.

Now let me point out an idea. After a Skoolie is legally registered as an RV in Vermont, it should then be a simple matter to transfer that registration AS AN RV to your home state. This will get you lawfully registered there, avoiding the hassle of getting a school bus registered as an RV in your home state. Sort of a step in the process.

But, that being said, if you continue to register your RV (or car, or truck) in a state where you do not reside, do not be surprised that your home state gives you a ticket or worse.

[o1marc]

Vt. is in it for the revenue. Most of the incidents mentioned here would happen outside of Vt., so why do they care? Many make the mistake of registering as an RV in Vt., and then trying to get RV insurance in their own state on an uncompleted conversion.

[n2wbl]

That is what the DMV is in Business for,,, it’s only business and if Vermont is more flexible then the State of NY or any other state, then Vermont can have my money! Their other states that provide a similar service, this group runs with Vermont,,,

[s2mikon]

Originally Posted by Tickled Puppy

I'm originally from California, where you saw a lot of people with Oregon plates because, at the time, they had a very low fee instead of California's complex and high fees depending on age and value. Over the years (I'm almost 70) I've lived in 5 states. I'm now in Vermont. Let me first explain why California, Wisconsin and other states will ticket cars or RVs with out-of-state plates... it is because the state relies on its fees for many services, and if you are evading them, yet living in the state, yes it IS defrauding the state, accept it or not.

Now let me point out an idea. After a Skoolie is legally registered as an RV in Vermont, it should then be a simple matter to transfer that registration AS AN RV to your home state. This will get you lawfully registered there, avoiding the hassle of getting a school bus registered as an RV in your home state. Sort of a step in the process.

But, that being said, if you continue to register your RV (or car, or truck) in a state where you do not reside, do not be surprised that your home state gives you a ticket or worse.

If what you say is true, registration in one state and driving in another is fraud, then if you use the mail, internet or phone to facilitate that it is felony mail fraud.

[Rock-N-Ruth]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

I'm starting to wonder how long this Vermont registration loophole is going to be allowed to continue. Technically registering a vehicle in one state and keeping/operating it in another state is fraud.

I see too many half baked conversions done by people who use the Vermont method to get around their state's definition of a legal motorhome. Just the other day on the Interstate I saw an older IC conventional with Vermont motorhome plates. The bus had the following:

1. What appeared to be windows that were spray painted black (not necessarily illegal, but doesn't give a very good impression).
2. Still school bus yellow. Wisconsin requires you to completely paint the bus with no yellow visible anywhere.
3. All school bus equipment still intact (lights, crosswalk, the works).
4. The strobe light was ON!! big no no in Wisconsin!! If you are NOT a school bus you are not allowed to run one, period. End of story.

I see this a TON on the facebook skoolie groups.

I realize that some states make it difficult and/or there are lack of guidelines for retitling a school bus as an RV but practices like this are just going to cause issues for all of us in the long run. I think it's already starting to contribute to the difficulty we have in getting insurance (they do NOT like sketchy registration workarounds).

Thoughts?

Did you even consider that the bus may not have been fro Wisconsin and the owner wasn't trying to make a good impression on you? Did you know in new Mexico that you dont have to change the color or remove the lights or stop sign? The sop sign and cross walk may not be deployed but you dont have to take them off. White strobes are just fine for use on privately owned vehicles.
How is having a New Mexico bus registered in Vt fraud? The plates are registered to our New Mexico address.
How is running the strobe on top of the bus hurting anyone or infringing on anyone? I spose it makes sure you notice the bus with the ugly windows so that you dont hit it.
Have you considered that some people join the skoolie community because they dont want to conform to your aesthetic?
Those are my thoughts. You asked for them.

[s2mikon]

Please read NMSA 66-3-835. We are not allowed to run flashing lights on a motorhome. School bus yes, motor home no. Will you get a ticket for it? Who knows.

[Tickled Puppy]

I see from this and other replies that nobody seems to understand what defrauding the state means. Each state, of course, has its own laws... I mentioned California as an example simply because I spent most of my life there, until 2016. I'm almost 70 and drove buses for 30 years. I now live in Vermont. I'm quite sure Vermont doesn't care where you live. But California (and other states) DO! Why? The revenue they take in at the DMV helps pay for the roads, signs, driver education, and whatever else the state's legislators decided to spend the money on. If you are taking advantage of that state's highways, facilities, etc., yet you are not paying that state's fees, and are paying elsewhere, such as Vermont, then yes you are in fact DEFRAUDING your state of residence of their lawfully due income. If you do not understand that from me, then simply contact your DMV, or state patrol office and ASK. I'm trying to save you a ton of trouble and legal fees here. However, most people have been "lucky" simply because the governments are overwhelmed with serious issues and will only bother about your registration if its a slow day for some cop.

[Rock-N-Ruth]

Originally Posted by s2mikon

Please read NMSA 66-3-835. We are not allowed to run flashing lights on a motorhome. School bus yes, motor home no. Will you get a ticket for it? Who knows.

I understand that. What he is ranting about is the white rooftop strobe.

[WIbluebird]

Originally Posted by Rock-N-Ruth

I u derstand that. What he is ranting about is the white rooftop strobe.

That and the amount of people who can't even be bothered to paint the bus or remove the other school bus equipment.

It's just going to make it harder for the rest of us to register and insure our skoolies when people do things like this.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Rock-N-Ruth

Did you even consider that the bus may not have been fro Wisconsin and the owner wasn't trying to make a good impression on you? Did you know in new Mexico that you dont have to change the color or remove the lights or stop sign? The sop sign and cross walk may not be deployed but you dont have to take them off. White strobes are just fine for use on privately owned vehicles.
How is having a New Mexico bus registered in Vt fraud? The plates are registered to our New Mexico address.
How is running the strobe on top of the bus hurting anyone or infringing on anyone? I spose it makes sure you notice the bus with the ugly windows so that you dont hit it.
Have you considered that some people join the skoolie community because they dont want to conform to your aesthetic?
Those are my thoughts. You asked for them.

How would blue lights on the front of my vehicle hurt or infringe on anyone? Run some and see how long it takes to get pulled over. I think the strobe is a great safety item, but illegal in some states.
The states want revenue from the vehicles stored in their state, skirting that rule could be considered fraud.
Ga. says "Georgia law requires that you apply for or transfer title and registration for your vehicle within 30 days of moving to Georgia or moving from one county to another.", but it doesn't say I have to register it in Ga.
I haven't moved since I bought my bus.

[s2mikon]

Originally Posted by Rock-N-Ruth

I understand that. What he is ranting about is the white rooftop strobe.

NMSA 66-3-835 covers that. I have strobe warning lights on my service truck but I can't run them while driving.

[Rock-N-Ruth]

Originally Posted by o1marc

How would blue lights on the front of my vehicle hurt or infringe on anyone? Run some and see how long it takes to get pulled over. I think the strobe is a great safety item, but illegal in some states.
The states want revenue from the vehicles stored in their state, skirting that rule could be considered fraud.
Ga. says "Georgia law requires that you apply for or transfer title and registration for your vehicle within 30 days of moving to Georgia or moving from one county to another.", but it doesn't say I have to register it in Ga.
I haven't moved since I bought my bus.

In states wher blue lights are reserved for emergency vehicles, using them without proper credentials certainly does infringe on citizens reasonable sense of security and trust in vehicles that may or may not be emergency or law enforcement vehicles.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Ga. says "Georgia law requires that you apply for or transfer title and registration for your vehicle within 30 days of moving to Georgia or moving from one county to another.", but it doesn't say I have to register it in Ga.

Wut? Comprehension failure there.

Again, nothing to do with the **owner's** residence.

Clearly states right there, if the vehicle remains

i.e. is "garaged" in, does not depend on "moving" it in a given county for 30 days

then the rego & title must be transferred at that county's tag office so the proper fees & taxes can be collected.

The VT rego does not violate anything, no "fraud" involved anywhere.

It is your not complying with the **Georgia** law that puts you in violation.

If the GA authorities do not enforce those laws, then in practice you are fine,

just like all those other weird blue laws, plus the dozens of felonies every citizen violates every year usually without even being aware.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

That and the amount of people who can't even be bothered to paint the bus or remove the other school bus equipment.

It's just going to make it harder for the rest of us to register and insure our skoolies when people do things like this.

if its not required to take it off then why take it off?? some of us actually restore busses back ot original or keepo them like busses becauses we like busses.. not all of us are making campers or houses out of busses... it turns out that most states have provisions for that and allow you to keep the school bus equipment.. most states do require that you cover up the "school bus" wording while driving such a bus on the road when it is not being used for school purposes.. but that on private property you can restore the letters.. (ie a show or in your driveway, etc)..


some states have provisions for removal of school bus equipment requirements qhen a bus becomes a commercial or church bus which is a commercial operation vs private not-for-hire..



its not blanket.. im familiar with a lot of people i nthe classic bus community who choose to keep their school busses as school busses and drive them all over the country doing so and not having legal issues doing it..



there may very well be special rules if a bus becomes a camper that requires removal in some states vs the bus being a personal vehicle.. again its not blanket.. it is common on our cross country classic-bus caravans to use our strobe lights to see each other in traffic esp at night.. we have been doing it for years and never heard a word about it..



no one ever ever operates the school lights on a public road whatsoever.. they arent operated as brake lights, turn signals or anything.. and never are turned on as the wig-wag school pattern.. not even the yellows.. they do get turned on at bus shows sometimes but the busses are in a parking lot or someone;s home at that point..



there was one time that I can remember where a participant operated his reds on a street to warn traffic on a blind curve that a motorcycle had wrecked in front of our caravan and the rider was laying in the road.. the police / fired dept never said boo about it when they arrived as it very well may have saved a life

[Sehnsucht]

CadillacKid makes a good point that some buses are restoration projects and some are RV conversion projects. But that distinction again brings us back to the topic of state of registration as well as driver license requirements and insurance types. If its still a bus whether for restoration or for non-student transportation then the VT method probably doesn't offer any real value because its not an issue of what does or doesn't constitute an RV to a particular state. It is however still a commercial class of vehicle and if it meets the federal threshold then every state is going to require the proper class of driver's license. Additionally, a restoration isn't necessarily used for any commercial, non-commercial, church or other passenger purpose but that doesn't mean insurance is going to be cheap because its still CAPABLE of being used for any of those purposes. Insurance can also vary by state and if one state allows a policy for commercial class vehicle private use that still doesn't mean every insurance company wants to insure it or what it is going to cost. AND if you try the VT method calling it an RV when its clearly still a passenger capable bus I'd still expect some hard questions from LEO should you encounter them because a misclassified vehicle raises all kinds of red flags! I kind of feel like that's the core issue of this topic, more so than the whole 'my state is greedy' debate.