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Old 04-10-2017, 05:52 PM   #201
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OK Here we go... been buried in Work-stuff but have managed to get the Bus torn down, Learned alot from the Navistar Dealer... (I love rush truck columbus ohio)...

and am now on the beginnings of the buildup...

first-off getting the radiator out of one of these things seems to require as much muscle as a little 145 lb Dude can muster!! i wish my hoist wasnt being borrowed... id have used it..

take your hood off!!! makes like 10X easier.. 2 people, 4 springs and 2 pins.. and your hood is off the bus...

first off, to take off the fan clutch you will need a couple wrenches.. I have 2 clutch wrenches.. one I used on a Jeep awhile back, then the 2 i used .. the middle one and the the big wrench on the left.. that is a 2 INCH wrench.. it looks small in the pic.. but its HUGE!!.. its total coolness.. the Fan on a 444E drives with the BACK of the belt.. so it is LEFTY LOOSEY.. standard.. not backwards..




Test fitting the New horton EC-450 clutch on the old water pump... i wanted to see clearance against the belts.. esp the A/C since it was added after... looks good... mounting the strap (it doesnt carry any load) will require a bit of needle threading but nothing I havent done before..



the new Fan blades clear the belts as well... in fact the new fan span is nearly identical to the old one.. but with 9 blades and their pitch, is designed to flow about 20-25% more at a given RPM than the stock 7 blade fan...



fitment in the shroud is close but not too bad... I may still cut the top (the shroud is shown upside down in the pic.. the top is down)... so I could open the top a tad and re-work it .. the mounts on the shroud are slotted so it can be moved to fit just right, as well... if I dont work it then install it.. and no fit.. then id kick myself.. because that sucker is a total PITA to take out!!!



well well.. i found that 97E circuit connect once i had alot of stuff apart... im still going to use the external controller I got... the navistar tech recommended it stating the fan will turn on at 210 if left stock.. and even though the ECM has parameters for changing it, they wont take... he said they used to be alterable then were made permanent factory-only..



My old thermostat was stuck partial OPEN... and by 'Old' i mean i just stuck that sucker in 4 months ago!!!... I did verify that it does open all the way up just for kicks.. oh well.. gotta a New one of Those!! on the way..



Got the old water pump and oil pump off.. the water pump prob ably was pumping fine, however the bearing had a decent amount of Jiggle.. so im glad im changing it now.. it was likely gonna leak soon..



Oil pump.. the old on left, new on right... you can see the one on the left, the inner gear has some wear on the Lobes... my Oil Pressure wasnt bad... but at 150k miles figured itd be a good look... i got a melling M208 to replace it with... its design is a bit different... you can see its inner lobes fit the outer well.. there was very little wear on the bearing... both of these gears spin in the housing... and the outer gear had very little play...





My GOD its All in Pieces!!



there you have it!! I'll keep you up to date as I keep going...

-Christopher
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:59 PM   #202
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some other notes from my conversation with the Navistar tech today..

I did a little talking to the Navistar guy today, he indicated those 180 thermostats were for an old engine... they show up as a non-fit for the 444E, my response was it fit perfectly except I have to use an O-ring from the 192 as the provided one was too thin...

we then talked about what was going on..

1. he said 200-220 operating temperatue is considered very normal for the 444E.. above 220 it *MAY* (depending on software level) start to de-rate in 6% intervals.. 235 should trip the 'Im hot' alarm.. but the engine isnt in danger of damage.. Nasvistar is EXTREME conservative.. he indicated the ford guys pulling massive trailers with OIL temps at 240 and Coolant temps at 220-230 all day long...

2. Fan clutches are a big issue.. and replacements from companies like kit-masters (where everyone buys them because they are 1/3 the cost of navistar) are shipped at too high temperature... the Horton update im doing is a good upgrade.. the computer turns the fan on at like 210.. so he suggested if that bothers me to use an external control. (which im doing)..

3. oil temperatures under load at 10-15-20 degrees over Coolant temp is very normal and nothing to worry about... though navistar will De-rate on OIL temps over 230 i think he said... the De-rate on these engines is very gradual and not like CUmmins that just drops off into completely limp mode..

4. if your engine is older than FEB 1999 the *DONT* update your coolant to the ELC (red) type coolants.. there were issues with injector cup seats and such... navistar did some updates in feb of 99 to various parts... kind of a mid-cycle refresh on the engine.. mine is Aug 99 and the VIN showed AOK to use Peak FinalCHarge and a NON-SCA coolant filter...

-Christopher

P.S. dropped my radiator at my favorite indie Truck shop this AM... they are going to fully clean and test it, inside and out... the fins didnt look terrible.. i couldnt tell about the inside... he said they blast it out so if any cores are clogged, they wont be... said it appears to be in nice shape physically.. so 99% likely thats $800 I wont have to spend to get a new radiator...
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:03 PM   #203
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VERY cool, man!
Thanks a million for beta testing all this lol.

Know what you need? One of these-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/311842116613?ul_noapp=true

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Old 04-10-2017, 10:56 PM   #204
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Mmmmmmmm...shiny it is.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:40 AM   #205
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Ooooh! Then I could figure how. To mount lights in those holes... chrome n lights, lights n chrome, that's how it's done !
Christopher
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:07 PM   #206
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Pics to come later, I got the bus started up today, it's 82 here, haven't driven it on the highway yet as the bonnet is still off, but the coolant circulation is strong now, I set the fan to go on at 195 and off at 188, it kicked right in and ran about 30-45,seconds and kicked off. The air from the radiator when the fan is on was much hotter than previous so I'm guessing I have a lot better heat transfer from the radiator now than previous , the new fan is a bit louder, sounds like the semi truck fans.
Christopher
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:09 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
Pics to come later, I got the bus started up today, it's 82 here, haven't driven it on the highway yet as the bonnet is still off, but the coolant circulation is strong now, I set the fan to go on at 195 and off at 188, it kicked right in and ran about 30-45,seconds and kicked off. The air from the radiator when the fan is on was much hotter than previous so I'm guessing I have a lot better heat transfer from the radiator now than previous , the new fan is a bit louder, sounds like the semi truck fans.
Christopher
Would that fan be a direct bolt on upgrade for my Horton viscous fan clutch?
And looking forward to those pics!
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:30 PM   #208
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You have a borg Warner viscous and that fan blade should be a direct bolt, the thing I notice is how hot the air is now.. which means your theory of clogged radiators may be the ticket, my old water pump mpeller was perfect, I had the rad boiled And of course they cleaned the fins too.
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Old 04-15-2017, 05:54 PM   #209
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You have a borg Warner viscous and that fan blade should be a direct bolt, the thing I notice is how hot the air is now.. which means your theory of clogged radiators may be the ticket, my old water pump mpeller was perfect, I had the rad boiled And of course they cleaned the fins too.
Christopher
With all the bent, rusty fins I'm prolly gonna pop for a new rad.
Whether or not I try to go for the full core or stock half n half is the question now.
I'll definitely lower the fan engagement temp and order that upgraded fan blade, THANKS!
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:42 PM   #210
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we can lower your fan engagement temp easily. thats at least a start..

I just got back from a nice long drive... when I started out it was 84 degrees, moderate humidity.. of course I had the Air-Conditioner on.. I took it out on the freeway with some mild inclines and ran it pretty much flat out at 70-72 MPH.. (holiday weekend and 65 MPOH speed limit so I didnt want to attract the PoPo)..

I first had the clutch set at 195 on and 190 off.. the fan liked to run almost continuous with the engine load at 80-100%, and hold the coolant temp sensor at about 192-193.. i surmised I was likely starting to close my 182 thermostat.. (when I did the boiling water test it was fully open at 195 and started to close below that)..

my oil temp stayed below 201 the whole time, and oil pressure on the new oil pump was 43-48 all the time..(at 199-200 oil temp).. it varies as the HPOP calls for oil.. thats a few PSI higher than what it ran previously before the pump change at the given temp..

I stopped and ran around in town a bit.. the fan would come on and run for 10-20 seconds hear or there... maybe a few longer if I was punching it to get up to 45 or so..

I stop and set the control to go on at 200 and off at 195. it cycled more... fairly often in fact.. the engine temp went from 201 or so down to 196.. (my 2 sensors are in slightly different spots, so what I read on the computer and on the fan controller sometimes vary a bit..).. my oil temp reached 203 at one point but never higher.. at this setting...

it then started to get to be sunset and cool down so I no longer had the hot conditions.. I returned home at this point.

The Navistar OnCommand diagnostic and the Navistar guy I asked when picking up my new serp belt the other day said the factory fan on temp is 210-215 depending on various things set up.. he couldnt tell by my VIN since it came with a Viscous, the setting was marked as "should be disable" for my computer.. (which it was).. 210-215 was nothingto worry about in his eyes.. 220 and above were too hot and 235 is where he said "alarm bells will ring"...

so I could go to say a 205 on 200 off setting and reduce the ampunt of fan run time most likely..

my main thing is wanting to make sure its under-control and not runaway like it was previously... I wont really know till i take it to florida, or climb a mountain (like a trip to florida does)..

but it sure seems like I have it well under control... I did also install a manual switch that will engage the clutch all the time if i so choose.. according to the email from Horton the clutch is rated at 100% duty and a million or nore cycles at full RPM before the clutch material wears out.. and supposedly thats replaceable..

the *BEST* part is I am BIG-RIGGIN!! I love that little 'Screech' and then woooahhh!! sound from the fan... makes me sound like a Semi truck now!.. its highere pitch than the metal fan was..

I did go with a little less than 50/50 Mix on coolant... i have about 2 gallons of distilled water in the mix with the 50/50 coolant... and one bottle of diesel water-wetter..

it took a while to get all the heater loops bled of air.. the bleeder screw was definitely a huge help...

the other part of this is the personal psychological part... I had given up Hotrodding 6 years ago... last year i did a little wrench turning on the DEV... added A/C.. , but this was the first tike I had turned a more Serious Wrench in a while... yeah it felt good to be out in the driveway, tools everywhere, alan jackson blasting in the garage.. my roomie giving me H*LL for running my clothes and rags through the washing machine 3 times... yeah just like old times.. sprayin the wasps with BraKleen when they started bugging me...
-Christopher
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:08 PM   #211
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heres a short youtube video I posted of the first Test-run of the new fan clutch... this is just a driveway test.. sorry the video wont go landscape.. my iphone is a PITA!




-Christopher
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:17 PM   #212
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Well, luckily our laptops will go sideways. Pretty cool.

I could do that. All except for the cool readout thingy and the wiring and all that other stuff.
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:25 PM   #213
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this is gonna sound funny.. but to me the Hardest part of the whole project was probably getting the Bonnett off and back on... im just a little guy.. and I had a bigger guy help me with it.. but still that bugger was heavy...

the radiator too ka little wrestle too.. to fit the radiator, turbo cooler, and shroud all in without damaging things ...

the wiring wasnt too bad... the controller thingie came with a nice diagram.. so I then just did a design and made a harness for it... using the same factory tubing and such..

I buttoned the inside up after the video... there was also a nice little pile of wires I yanked out that were obsolete.. and theres more.. I just dont like to jerk out too much stuff at once in case i bust something that I need..
-Christopher
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:35 PM   #214
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Yes. On the very few days that I've had to mess with electrical my bus gets restarted quite often.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:15 PM   #215
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Very cool! thanks for the update, man! I'm GONNA have to get that badass fan blade!
I, too, have used many a bottle of Brake cleaner to take out wasps and other insects of pestilent variety.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:06 AM   #216
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Christopher - sweet sounding engine. Nice. I need to get one of those gauge monitors - that looks to me a little more accurate than the factory gauges

Nice work! I can't wait to see it!
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