Insurance Headache

[NavyVet]

National general in Portland Oregon will do schoolie insurance.
State farm will also. But may depend on the state you live in

[banman]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

A construction standard would probably make more carriers comfortable with insuring a skoolie. As it is most of the buses I've been able to insure conform to the standard underwriting guide I've been told by an underwriter. No frame modifications, no rooftop stuff except solar panels, no wood stoves, no full timers and no double deckers.

In my case -- currently I have "commercial for personal use" insurance at a very reasonable rate (I think) for what I said is an empty bus (all seats removed) used for hauling and storage.
I was told, if I converted it to an RV, then I'd need to change my insurance.
(It's with Progressive and I already know they simply don't underwrite But to RV conversions)
My plan is to build an "Irish pub" with nine foot bar with some stools and two booths. A couple beer taps and refrigeration.
This configuration would never qualify as an RV conversion based on the usual build requirements.

Do you think this would run against my policy with Progressive?

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Does "frame modifications" mean mods to the truck part (like the chassis rails) or to the bus body? I've had to do a substantial rebuild of the floor of my bus around the wheel wells, and I wonder if that will affect the possibility of my getting full RV coverage (I currently have RV coverage with Allstate but it's liability-only).

I doubt that repairs to the floor or any other framing member falls under the “modification” moniker. I think that if the exterior looks stock or near stock there won’t be anything to worry about. I’ve installed tool boxes and hatches in the skirt. It’s all sheet metal modifications and really well done so I don’t think it’s going to be a problem. I hope not!

I wish the no-no’s were better documented by underwriters.

I got to ask, who is insuring the roof raiders?

[banman]

Originally Posted by Danjo

SNIP...
I wish the no-no’s were better documented by underwriters.

I got to ask, who is insuring the roof raiders?

I suspect there's a lot of "Commercial for Personal Use" policies out there rather than convert to RV insurance.

OSU is near me and there are probably a 100 school buses converted to "party buses". They don't have all the sub-systems to qualify as an RV.

Many business concerns buy a truck chassis and build the box to fit the needs of the business. A roof raise is just a taller box -- if I wanted to raise my roof for hauling larger objects or more cargo, would I tell my insurance company that? Would I think to as a business owner?

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by banman

In my case -- currently I have "commercial for personal use" insurance at a very reasonable rate (I think) for what I said is an empty bus (all seats removed) used for hauling and storage.
I was told, if I converted it to an RV, then I'd need to change my insurance.
(It's with Progressive and I already know they simply don't underwrite But to RV conversions)
My plan is to build an "Irish pub" with nine foot bar with some stools and two booths. A couple beer taps and refrigeration.
This configuration would never qualify as an RV conversion based on the usual build requirements.

Do you think this would run against my policy with Progressive?

Yeah. Progressive insurance in our use case is less than optimal. As soon as you make any modification your policy is void.

You thought they had good rates? They dinged me for $550 a year. National General who is covering me during conversion is 280 I think.

I love your Irish pub idea! The alcohol part might be a problem.

Find an agent to help you. Don’t call it a pub. Call it an art installation. Don’t mention alcohol.

[banman]

Originally Posted by Danjo

Yeah. Progressive insurance in our use case is less than optimal. As soon as you make any modification your policy is void.

You thought they had good rates? They dinged me for $550 a year. National General who is covering me during conversion is 280 I think.

I love your Irish pub idea! The alcohol part might be a problem.

Find an agent to help you. Don’t call it a pub. Call it an art installation. Don’t mention alcohol.

Paying less than $200/yr with Progressive...

I would just say I'm temporarily storing the bar & bar stools in the bus...
(it's only bolted down for security while moving it from here to there...)
A kegorator is just a refrigeration unit until the beer goes in!

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by banman

In my case -- currently I have "commercial for personal use" insurance at a very reasonable rate (I think) for what I said is an empty bus (all seats removed) used for hauling and storage.
I was told, if I converted it to an RV, then I'd need to change my insurance.
(It's with Progressive and I already know they simply don't underwrite But to RV conversions)
My plan is to build an "Irish pub" with nine foot bar with some stools and two booths. A couple beer taps and refrigeration.
This configuration would never qualify as an RV conversion based on the usual build requirements.

Do you think this would run against my policy with Progressive?

If you're making a mobile pub then you're basically a food truck sans food. Commercial for Personal Use isn't applicable then.

I would have tried to do it as a bus under conversion after getting approval from my underwriter, knowing we'd switch to commercial auto when your build was done. You need Commercial Auto, General Liability with Liquor liability, and possibly other coverage I can't think of right now for the pub.

I was able to do something similar with National General. I talked to the underwriter and was approved to quote/submit for review (which was approved as well) the bus while it was being converted for a commercial use later. There is no commercial coverage on the policy as written, and it was explained and agreed that this is only to get it built out. When it's time to do the business then we are switching to a commercial auto policy and canceling this rv conversion policy.

This is why I keep posting about finding an agent and telling them what you're doing.

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by Danjo

Don’t call it a pub. Call it an art installation. Don’t mention alcohol.

Not to be blunt, but that's a terrible suggestion.

If he had an accident, or someone got sick and filed a claim he'd most likely get cancelled for misrepresentation. That completely nulls the policy back to it's original effective date. Even if the policy is years old.

So then he's never had insurance on the bus. Not only will he be on the hook for any damages or awards from a lawsuit, but the DMV, if it's anything like VA, would request proof of insurance for the lapse period. When he can't provide that he's losing his license, getting fined at least $500, and will have to pay that + reinstatement fee + have a filing on his license for not having insurance.

With a cancellation for misrepresentation, getting any insurance will be very difficult, and much more expensive. On top of that the filing will add a cost to the policy and limit the carriers who would write his insurance in the first place.


Your clever suggestion just cost him anywhere from $600 to several million.

[banman]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

If you're making a mobile pub then you're basically a food truck sans food. Commercial for Personal Use isn't applicable then.

I would have tried to do it as a bus under conversion after getting approval from my underwriter, knowing we'd switch to commercial auto when your build was done. You need Commercial Auto, General Liability with Liquor liability, and possibly other coverage I can't think of right now for the pub.

I was able to do something similar with National General. I talked to the underwriter and was approved to quote/submit for review (which was approved as well) the bus while it was being converted for a commercial use later. There is no commercial coverage on the policy as written, and it was explained and agreed that this is only to get it built out. When it's time to do the business then we are switching to a commercial auto policy and canceling this rv conversion policy.

This is why I keep posting about finding an agent and telling them what you're doing.

Hi Sutphinins,
I appreciate the knowledgeable response!

The pub thing is stricly for personal amusement. I will never be selling anything to anybody from the bus. Nothing business like about this...

The bus will go to campout get-togethers etc. Events where private "tail-gating" is acceptable... I guess you could compare it to the "party buses" you'd see at OSU and other large college tailgate events.

Does that paint a different picture?

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by banman

Hi Sutphinins,
I appreciate the knowledgeable response!

The pub thing is stricly for personal amusement. I will never be selling anything to anybody from the bus. Nothing business like about this...

The bus will go to campout get-togethers etc. Events where private "tail-gating" is acceptable... I guess you could compare it to the "party buses" you'd see at OSU and other large college tailgate events.

Does that paint a different picture?

Maybe? That's really a question for your agent and/or Progressive if you went direct. If you were in a state I could write the National General RV policy in, I'd see if I could get it approved on the RV bus conversion policy even after the conversion is complete.

[banman]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

Maybe? That's really a question for your agent and/or Progressive if you went direct. If you were in a state I could write the National General RV policy in, I'd see if I could get it approved on the RV bus conversion policy even after the conversion is complete.

Yeah, having heard Progressive has a tendency to drop people after the fact...
I'm loath to have an adult conversation with the agent -- I think she's in Cleveland, if she was in Columbus and I could face to face I'd feel much better about asking what is and ain't acceptable behavior for a policy...

If you can do bidness in Ohio, I'd certainly enjoy a quote!

At that point PM me.

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by banman

Yeah, having heard Progressive has a tendency to drop people after the fact...
I'm loath to have an adult conversation with the agent -- I think she's in Cleveland, if she was in Columbus and I could face to face I'd feel much better about asking what is and ain't acceptable behavior for a policy...

If you can do bidness in Ohio, I'd certainly enjoy a quote!

At that point PM me.

I thought both our insurance licenses were expired for Ohio but they're not. Let me do some checking around before I ask my boss about renewing the other half of the required Ohio license.

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

Not to be blunt, but that's a terrible suggestion.

If he had an accident, or someone got sick and filed a claim he'd most likely get cancelled for misrepresentation. That completely nulls the policy back to it's original effective date. Even if the policy is years old.

So then he's never had insurance on the bus. Not only will he be on the hook for any damages or awards from a lawsuit, but the DMV, if it's anything like VA, would request proof of insurance for the lapse period. When he can't provide that he's losing his license, getting fined at least $500, and will have to pay that + reinstatement fee + have a filing on his license for not having insurance.

With a cancellation for misrepresentation, getting any insurance will be very difficult, and much more expensive. On top of that the filing will add a cost to the policy and limit the carriers who would write his insurance in the first place.


Your clever suggestion just cost him anywhere from $600 to several million.

I assumed his project was not a commercial venture and I guess that’s the case. I’m a homebrewer and I’ve thrown a few big parties and certainly the CYA questions have been discussed, especially the scenario where someone gets drunk and chooses to drive. We always have water and a non-alcoholic drink option and food so that no one can ever say the only thing to drink was beer.

If this were a commercial venture I’d never say skirt the law or insurance.

[banman]

Originally Posted by Danjo

I assumed his project was not a commercial venture and I guess that’s the case. I’m a homebrewer and I’ve thrown a few big parties and certainly the CYA questions have been discussed, especially the scenario where someone gets drunk and chooses to drive. We always have water and a non-alcoholic drink option and food so that no one can ever say the only thing to drink was beer.

If this were a commercial venture I’d never say skirt the law or insurance.

Exactly this -- I only do/allow serious drinking at multi-day events where no one has any expectation of driving for a good long while...

I suspect the cost of insurance as a commercial venture would be so cost prohibitive that it would never be worth it --

Probably why I'm in possession of said bus for free...

Commercial registration is several thousand in OH and would require a CDL qualified driver to boot...
Can only imagine what business insurance would cost for such a venture...

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by Danjo

I assumed his project was not a commercial venture and I guess that’s the case. I’m a homebrewer and I’ve thrown a few big parties and certainly the CYA questions have been discussed, especially the scenario where someone gets drunk and chooses to drive. We always have water and a non-alcoholic drink option and food so that no one can ever say the only thing to drink was beer.

If this were a commercial venture I’d never say skirt the law or insurance.

A friend of mine does homebrew, and I think the personal use of Banman's pub and you & my friend brewing is higher risk than the commercial.

In VA, when I do a general liability (commercial) policy I start at $1,000,000/$2,000,000 limits. That's per claim/aggregate limits. Not all agents do, sometimes you'll see a general liability policy at $300,000/$600,000. It depends on the state, carrier minimums and the agent.

Most homeowners liability minimum is $100,000, and medical payments is minimum $1,000 or not included. On a general liability policy it's usually defaulted at $5,000.

Having parties and sharing your brews with your friends/guests is great. Unfortunately someone could get sick and decide it was your beer and maybe sue you. Same could happen to Banman. So then what happens? Your homeowners would possibly pay out the medical payment limit. If they decide to sue you and their award is more than your liability, that difference is out of your pocket.

My friend makes a great RIS, but I have gotten sick from one of his beers where it was too yeasty. Nothing major, and I certainly wouldn't sue over the backdoor trots for a day.

If you, Danjo, haven't talked to your agent and looked at higher liability limits, I would. And an umbrella. If your state has uninsured/underinsured motorist limits on your auto policy, make sure your umbrella offers it too.

Originally Posted by banman

Exactly this -- I only do/allow serious drinking at multi-day events where no one has any expectation of driving for a good long while...

I suspect the cost of insurance as a commercial venture would be so cost prohibitive that it would never be worth it --

Probably why I'm in possession of said bus for free...

Commercial registration is several thousand in OH and would require a CDL qualified driver to boot...
Can only imagine what business insurance would cost for such a venture...

Why would you have to have a CDL if there are no passengers? I don't know the regs in Ohio but a commercial auto policy doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a CDL. Technically any vehicle you see with a sign on it for a business should have commercial auto insurance. Even those poor souls that got sucked into a MLM and have their back window with a sign on it.

In Virginia, a general liability policy is usually less than $1500/year, usually closer to $700 than $1000, but it depends on what you're doing. Commercial auto is going to be based on vehicle, risk and driving record, so it might be expensive it might not be much more than the general liability.

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

A friend of mine does homebrew, and I think the personal use of Banman's pub and you & my friend brewing is higher risk than the commercial.

In VA, when I do a general liability (commercial) policy I start at $1,000,000/$2,000,000 limits. That's per claim/aggregate limits. Not all agents do, sometimes you'll see a general liability policy at $300,000/$600,000. It depends on the state, carrier minimums and the agent.

Most homeowners liability minimum is $100,000, and medical payments is minimum $1,000 or not included. On a general liability policy it's usually defaulted at $5,000.

Having parties and sharing your brews with your friends/guests is great. Unfortunately someone could get sick and decide it was your beer and maybe sue you. Same could happen to Banman. So then what happens? Your homeowners would possibly pay out the medical payment limit. If they decide to sue you and their award is more than your liability, that difference is out of your pocket.

My friend makes a great RIS, but I have gotten sick from one of his beers where it was too yeasty. Nothing major, and I certainly wouldn't sue over the backdoor trots for a day.

If you, Danjo, haven't talked to your agent and looked at higher liability limits, I would. And an umbrella. If your state has uninsured/underinsured motorist limits on your auto policy, make sure your umbrella offers it too.



Why would you have to have a CDL if there are no passengers? I don't know the regs in Ohio but a commercial auto policy doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a CDL. Technically any vehicle you see with a sign on it for a business should have commercial auto insurance. Even those poor souls that got sucked into a MLM and have their back window with a sign on it.

In Virginia, a general liability policy is usually less than $1500/year, usually closer to $700 than $1000, but it depends on what you're doing. Commercial auto is going to be based on vehicle, risk and driving record, so it might be expensive it might not be much more than the general liability.

Suing for getting the squirts?!?! I guess, but come on! I sure hope I never hang out with THAT guy.

It just seems laughable. This same idea could be extended to food. Suppose I had a dinner party and someone got a tummy ache. Give me a break.

[banman]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

A friend of mine does homebrew, and I think the personal use of Banman's pub and you & my friend brewing is higher risk than the commercial.

In VA, when I do a general liability (commercial) policy I start at $1,000,000/$2,000,000 limits. That's per claim/aggregate limits. Not all agents do, sometimes you'll see a general liability policy at $300,000/$600,000. It depends on the state, carrier minimums and the agent.

Most homeowners liability minimum is $100,000, and medical payments is minimum $1,000 or not included. On a general liability policy it's usually defaulted at $5,000.

Having parties and sharing your brews with your friends/guests is great. Unfortunately someone could get sick and decide it was your beer and maybe sue you. Same could happen to Banman. So then what happens? Your homeowners would possibly pay out the medical payment limit. If they decide to sue you and their award is more than your liability, that difference is out of your pocket.

My friend makes a great RIS, but I have gotten sick from one of his beers where it was too yeasty. Nothing major, and I certainly wouldn't sue over the backdoor trots for a day.

If you, Danjo, haven't talked to your agent and looked at higher liability limits, I would. And an umbrella. If your state has uninsured/underinsured motorist limits on your auto policy, make sure your umbrella offers it too.



Why would you have to have a CDL if there are no passengers? I don't know the regs in Ohio but a commercial auto policy doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a CDL. Technically any vehicle you see with a sign on it for a business should have commercial auto insurance. Even those poor souls that got sucked into a MLM and have their back window with a sign on it.

In Virginia, a general liability policy is usually less than $1500/year, usually closer to $700 than $1000, but it depends on what you're doing. Commercial auto is going to be based on vehicle, risk and driving record, so it might be expensive it might not be much more than the general liability.

The beauty of beer as a food is that there is literally nothing dangerous to humans that can grow in beer!
Thus did Arnold become Saint Arnold because his (low alcohol) beer saved thousands of lives relieving the common populace from the dangers of drinking contaminated water...
(This by the way is FACT, not forum fiction...)


I could easily be incorrect on this but my understanding was that if a business used a vehicle over the 26k pound limit it's drivers would require a CDL to drive it.

Your point of limits is important though regarding vehicles or homeowners -- for example, if my minimum liability is $100k and my house is worth $300k -- am I unprotected in that if I'm sued for more than my policy I might have to sell my house...?

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by Danjo

Suing for getting the squirts?!?! I guess, but come on! I sure hope I never hang out with THAT guy.

It just seems laughable. This same idea could be extended to food. Suppose I had a dinner party and someone got a tummy ache. Give me a break.

People will sue or try to file claims, it happens. If you don't think it's worth it, that's up to you, I was just pointing out what could happen.

Originally Posted by banman

Your point of limits is important though regarding vehicles or homeowners -- for example, if my minimum liability is $100k and my house is worth $300k -- am I unprotected in that if I'm sued for more than my policy I might have to sell my house...?

The agency owner wouldn't put liability less than the value of the house, and I usually go for the max available and explain/give them the difference with a lower value.

If your home is worth $300k, I'd definitely suggest talking to your agent about raising it. Honestly the difference in price is not huge for the year. It's not expensive to go to $500,000 or $1,000,000 in liability on your homeowners.

[Mako]

I have just started converting my bus and initially tried with Geico. As soon as I gave them the VIN they said sorry. I was given a guy with All State and had no issues. With my discounts and only using basic coverage until it gets fully converted and ready to use, I am paying $125/year. Now that only covers basics and the lady I spoke to said full time, for me, would be between $600/$900 per year. For me that sounded pretty good. Not sure if it is ok to post the insurance person's name on here but if you want it PM me and I will give it to you. (unless the administrators say it is ok) I should also say that I live in Florida so not sure if that makes a difference with my policy or not.

[Dirtdoctor]

I converted Mine Into a RV. Curtains counter with sink (5 gal bucket under the drain, small 12 v pump I to another bucket of clear water. Bed and a seat. The DMV inspection lady didn’t even go onboard she stepped on the first step and looked in. Then as an arc my insurance company (she’s a broker) got me some $40/month coverage