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Old 04-17-2024, 12:18 PM   #1
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Just spent 2 day calling insurance companies.

With very poor results. I did get one quote for $1800. Eff that! Still trying. I called several agents listed in some of the threads. Many said 1 year ago this or 2 years ago that. Basically I'm SOL at this point. If you have any suggestions, fire away...please.

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Old 04-17-2024, 01:42 PM   #2
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With very poor results. I did get one quote for $1800. Eff that! Still trying. I called several agents listed in some of the threads. Many said 1 year ago this or 2 years ago that. Basically I'm SOL at this point. If you have any suggestions, fire away...please.



Please provide your state..
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Old 04-17-2024, 01:58 PM   #3
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Good luck

A lotta that going on the past year or two. That and people getting dropped for roof raises, roof decks, and wood burning stoves.

I'm still with foremost. Liability only renewed annually coming up again here in may. Costs me less then 200 bucks. I bought it through my local agent, who's switched between now and then. I've got no recommendations for you.
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Old 04-17-2024, 04:42 PM   #4
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.I'm in California.
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Old 06-03-2024, 09:13 AM   #5
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I am in Georgia. I was with Allstate. They dropped me and want me to go to their new company. The Quote was for 2300.00 and I would have to fill out a questionnaire and have the agent take some pictures.
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Old 06-03-2024, 09:25 AM   #6
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Try this oneÖ

I ended up with a commercial policy with Progressive until the bus is finished. Itís thru United Financial Casualty Company, 1-800-444-4487 (progressive nbr)
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Old 06-03-2024, 10:25 AM   #7
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Try,
Geico commercial.

Call the commercial dept. and not the regular retail dept.!!!

Request coverage for an incomplete bus, commercial for personal/private use.

They will ask you for the vin and realize it is a school bus.

Tell them it is a retired bus and ALL seats have been removed!

Ask for basic liabilty coverage...you can upgrade later when your ready for full coverage.

They will ask questions and need pics.

Tell them it's for travel with the family, travelling by plane is out of the question due to medical concerns.

Do not mention you are converting it to a skoolie, that get's everyone confused and you will get shut down.

Not mentioning is not lying as for right now your bus has one single purpose, commercial for personal use, that's it!

Again, you can upgrade later.

My pics showed no seats, no windows and insulation being installed.

I got coverage!

good luck!
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Old 06-04-2024, 01:22 PM   #8
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Skoolie Owners insurance company

Hi,


I'd like to mention again we really need to look seriously at starting our own insurance/underwriting company. We do know what is and isn't acceptable variance in procedure and craftsmanship.


Something like RVIA, but for DIY vehicles.
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Old 06-05-2024, 07:38 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
Hi,


I'd like to mention again we really need to look seriously at starting our own insurance/underwriting company. We do know what is and isn't acceptable variance in procedure and craftsmanship.


Something like RVIA, but for DIY vehicles.

takes tons of $$$.. insurance companies work on odds... the reason prioces are so high is because there are a lot of claims..



lets look at my house..



I have owned it 20 years ..it was a new build when I had it built .. if I take the 20 year average ive paid about 1000 bucks a year.. I paid 150K to have it built.. nowadays the same house (with lower quality finishes and components ) is being built for 320K.. a realtor says I could sell it for 370K in a few days... so lets say it would cost 300K to build my exact house back with all the high quality upgrades ive done to it since ive had it.. i have it insured for exact replacxement of house and all contents.. with special riders of 50K for tools, 30K for electronics, plus lets say 30K for clothes, dishes, furniture, trashcans, etc etc...


if it burned to the ground.. (typically houses in my neighborhood when they burn they are close to total loss... our of 400 homes in my immediate subdivision, 3 have gone up)... you can do the math as to what i pay in premiums vs what the payout is for a single loss..



you have to have a lot of non claim customers for long period of time to break even and pay out even just one major claim...


with skoolies, they can do a lot of damage and more importantly inflict a lot of injuries pretty easily in even what seems like a minor crash.. while the bus itself might not incur much damage rear ending a car, the car and its occupants can easily rack up a hell of a bill...


and apparently it happens or insurance companies wouldnt be refusing to insure skoolies..



also the possibility of ones own bus causing injury... roof raises making a bus top heavy during evasive maneuvers... wood stoves that arent bolted down.. refrigerators justr setting there not properly installed.. easily whack the driver in the head and knock them out causing an even worse accident if the bus is still moving...



looking at many of the busses i see built on many different skoolie groups, i wouldnt insure more than about 10% of them..


this board is unique in that most members here think aboiut safety and the proper way to build out a skoolie to be safe and reliable (and fun)...
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Old 06-09-2024, 12:40 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
Hi,


I'd like to mention again we really need to look seriously at starting our own insurance/underwriting company. We do know what is and isn't acceptable variance in procedure and craftsmanship.


Something like RVIA, but for DIY vehicles.
I would want nothing to do with it. To many people with little building skills cut corners on there builds. Seen pictures of a local auction where a loose propane tank was plumbed to a cook top inside a bus with no ventilation, no carbon monoxide or leaking propane detector. I have that in my build and test it before each trip.

That and so many people that are young who just buy into a finished skoolie run their family off a cliff, all ejected out of the bus and if I recall all died. This is because you can at least where I live just used a standard drivers license to drive it down the road. I need a class 3 license to drive a single axle dump truck with dirt in the box. But a class 5 (generally for a car) is fine to drive a 35 foot+ bus with no education on how to pretrip a vehicle is fine so long it's registered as an RV.To me that's dumb.
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Old 06-09-2024, 03:48 PM   #11
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readig comprehension? Bias? What are those?

Cadillackid & Omnibot2000 appear to be under the misapprehension that A) insurance companies are perfectly reasonable in excluding skoolies categorically, and that for example wood stoves, roof raises, and deck can not be done safely & B) the point of skoolie owners/builders forming an insurance/underwriting company is to "get away with things".


Both impulses are unfounded.


The point of such a firm, and at least initially a non-profit one, would be to cooperatively set and only issue approvals to, those who met the standards for such and abided by them.


Decks can have railings.


Stoves through-bolted to the frame.


Roof raises done with appropriate welding/brazing to suitable cross section members and skinned tautly with appropriate gauge metal.


Etc.


Things we know work fine in real life and in accidents, and which cause no actual issues with claims.


Insurance companies are not skittish for no reason, but universally no matter the care taken for insufficient reason.


This is not a state of affairs to applaud, but an opportunity to exploit.
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Old 06-09-2024, 03:54 PM   #12
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"roof raises making a bus top heavy during evasive maneuvers."


Really? Most skoolies with raises have lower centers of gravity than a bus full of kids would.
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Old 06-09-2024, 04:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
"roof raises making a bus top heavy during evasive maneuvers."


Really? Most skoolies with raises have lower centers of gravity than a bus full of kids would.
THIS......

This exact quote is the reason why I would not have anything to do with insurance.

Complete lack of common sense.
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Old 06-09-2024, 05:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
"roof raises making a bus top heavy during evasive maneuvers."


Really? Most skoolies with raises have lower centers of gravity than a bus full of kids would.

do they? have you engineered and tested a 13' schoolie? if so im interested in your test data..


coach busses are built on completely different supensions and chassis..


the roof raise and then hanging 2 minisplits inside and a minisplit condenser up high and with a higher roof people usually have more upper cabinets and such .. the higher the roof raise.. the more Lever-arm effect you have during a turn on any item above where the original sat..



woodstoves - yep you *CAN* install one correctly.. but sorry to burst your bubble at least 80% of the woodsroves ive seen are shoddy installs.. they are safe enough that they wont burn the bus down... nut def not bolted to anything other than the floor.. if that... ive seen a couple cubic minis that are little more than sitting on a table..



your roof deck with rails.. what does that do tp the aerodynamics of your bus in the wind? those rails and wind getting under the deck most definitely affect how the bus handles..


yes you can build things safe.. *BUT* reality is People arent doin it.. they arent.. sorry to burst your bubble but theres a ton of crappy skoolies out there.. (along with some really really nice ones)..



all that said Does not Matter one single bit.. what matters is that insurance companies are pulling out because there's NO MONEY! in insuring skoolies.. and thats even factoring in profits insurance companies may make from also insuring a skoolie owner's House and cars and business as a bundle.. knowing they often lose this customer if they wont insure the skoolie..



a Non profit still has to have and make money.. it doesnt show a profit on paper however if it intends to grow and further its cause it must be a viable business entity.. non profits losing money go under all the time..



your idea sounds awesome and wonderful from a Human point of view but it has to actually Fly.. and you need an assload of money to get going.,. you have hundreds or more regulations and filings you have to do since insurance is somewhat regulated...


so if you went on shark tank and pitched your idea to them and when they asked "what is your business idea?" "to provide an insurance marketplace for Nomads and skoolie converters to purchase insurance at a fair price"...


"OK.. and how have you determined that there is a market for it?"
"other major companies refuse to insure skoolies" - Hello big red flags would go up... they need to go up in your own head... how would you be any different than any other company... once you dig down into the potential customer base you'd find some good takers but you'd also have a lot of disqualifieds.... (shoddy builds, lots of tickets / accidents on license.. maybe not even a license at all.).. insurance companies get sued all the time and have to spend 1000s to defend themselves..



I somehow just dont see how it can be much different than any other company
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Old 06-09-2024, 05:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
Cadillackid & Omnibot2000 appear to be under the misapprehension that A) insurance companies are perfectly reasonable in excluding skoolies categorically, and that for example wood stoves, roof raises, and deck can not be done safely & B) the point of skoolie owners/builders forming an insurance/underwriting company is to "get away with things".


Both impulses are unfounded.
I don't think that both impulses are unfounded... Insurance companies are in the business for managing risk...for a profit! When there are classifications of industry or activities that need to be covered by insurance the first thing they are gonna look at is 1) how big is the need/market and 2) what does the risk curve look like?
from the beginning of the insurance industry, they have been allowed to make up their own rules, mostly based on Risk, market size and governmental regulations. there is no changing that!
Hell, just take a look at the Florida homeowner insurance crisis...it is all about RISKS and PROFITS!

One of the main reasons that the insurance companies create and manage Underwriting guidelines is to do what you yourself indicated... "would be to cooperatively set and only issue approvals to, those who met the standards for such and abided by them."

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
The point of such a firm, and at least initially a non-profit one, would be to cooperatively set and only issue approvals to, those who met the standards for such and abided by them.


Decks can have railings.


Stoves through-bolted to the frame.


Roof raises done with appropriate welding/brazing to suitable cross section members and skinned tautly with appropriate gauge metal.
I just retired from the Collateral Recovery industry (17 yrs)...I am a professional car thief! ...Boats and trucks too!!!

One of the biggest issues we have had in that industry is...INSURANCE !!!
Maybe 4-5 major insurance carriers left out there and the underwriting guidelines are super ridiculous!

What the industry has done in the last ten years is to organize, reach out to insurance companies and work with them in identifying matters that were either outdated or non existent. I can tell you that I have seen some healthy changes in the industry because of this organized effort to communicate.

Is this what the skoolie world needs... IMO - YES! Will it get done...NO!

In industry where you got to work to make money to get ahead in life, well then yes there would be a need for and organized movement and the participants within the movement would be greatly motivated to make something happen.

In the Skoolie world I do not see that happening. we all are either retired and don't want to invest time in such an effort because all we want to do is fix our bus and travel or...There are those who still work full time, raising a family, building a bus and hoping to do some travel.

You also got to consider why is it that "upfitters" can remodel a car or truck and make it something new where insurance can be easily gotten later but we as DIY builders do not enjoy from the same benefits as an "Upfitter"!

Upfitters have to follow established guidelines and protocols from either a manufacturer or other industry guidelines such as RVIAA. By following these established guidelines/protocols they are able to get their products insured!

Why is it that DIY skoolie builder do not have to follow any industry protocols or guidelines...??? Because none exist for the "Skoolie" industry.

The skoolie industry need to be formalized and recognized in order for anything like "Insurance" opportunities to get better!

I like to think that mountains CAN BE MOVED...with the right influence, attitude and manpower...where is it in the Skoolie world???





Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post

Things we know work fine in real life and in accidents, and which cause no actual issues with claims.

Insurance companies are not skittish for no reason, but universally no matter the care taken for insufficient reason.


This is not a state of affairs to applaud, but an opportunity to exploit.
I am not sure the word exploit would be the best word here ...maybe "Enhance or provide education"???

Your not wrong with your thoughts I just see it from a different view and also see that there lies an opportunity for change, if we are willing to work for it!

Me, I'm too tired to take on the fight... I fought the Recovery industry fight for almost 14 years....did not get paid, spent alot of money out of pocket...
I'll just build my bus quietly and hope to get some more traveling in!

EDIt:
Had to add this in...Since the movement for eudcation and enhancement within the recovery industry began, well sometimes change can come and bite you in the butt. More inspections required, more security requirement and protocols and much easier to get sued now... Insurance companies WILL NOT DEFEND YOU.. They WILL DEFEND THEIR INTEREST FIRST !!!

So we continue to fly under the radar or we walk right into the radar screen!
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Old 06-09-2024, 05:06 PM   #16
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cadillac kid and omnibot2000 are spot on! Roof raises do in fact change the center gravity. Adding solar panels to the roof also raise the center of gravity. I'm not aware of any wood stoves that are UL rated for motor vehicle use. Manufactures of factory built RV's have deep pockets with liability insurance that can and will be tapped in the event of a loss. If I modify my bus the manufacture of the bus is now off the hook because I did the structural changes. This is why most companies don't want to be bothered with them.
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Old 06-09-2024, 05:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
do they? have you engineered and tested a 13' schoolie? if so im interested in your test data..


coach busses are built on completely different supensions and chassis..


the roof raise and then hanging 2 minisplits inside and a minisplit condenser up high and with a higher roof people usually have more upper cabinets and such .. the higher the roof raise.. the more Lever-arm effect you have during a turn on any item above where the original sat..


pany

I'm with you.

I can simply say they don't have a lower center of gravity without tests

I have lifted enough iron between overhead cranes, jib booms, forklifts, cranes, man lifts to know.

I have repaired all these types of equipment and operated them including Aspen A62 just for an example used for inspecting bridges including being sent to Duluth Minnesota for training on said equipment.

You need to know and visualize your center of gravity as well as perform all the calculations.

Dang this site makes me feel old.
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Old 06-09-2024, 10:03 PM   #18
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There is some fairly innumerate nonsense being spread here.

A 18" roof raise raises about 2000lbs by that amount, and adds about half that in weight overall if you are doing a window delete -- and of course the weight of glass comes off that. The glass and frames weighs more than the same area of steel.


Just being a skoolie not carry kids and not having benches lowers the weight by about 9k~12klbs. (Err, I am thinking of my 70+ pax vehicle.)


Underslinging the usual 100 to 200gallons in tankage probably adds 1000lbs very low to the ground, and then there are the house batteries, heaters, generators and all other manner of fairly heavy materials going under the floor. A few more thousands of pounds.



It is fair to say a roof raised skoolie is more likely to tip over than a skoolie otherwise identical which is not raised -- there yes. To say the roof raised skoolie is more likely to tip over than a laden school bus is silly.


You people keep fussing that people won't follow the rules -- so what?


They don't follow the rules in the build, they don't get covered. They get into mishaps involved in not following the rules, and that's not covered.


Pathological skepticism is why can't have nice thing.


Insurance companies are not categorically refusing to cover skoolies because they are wise, knowledgeable, and reasonable, but because they are ignorant, stubborn, and lazy, and because the skoolie community has done nothing to give them any reason to reassess matters.


It won't happen for free.


Many people will build or will have built skoolies which can not qualify -- so what?


For the people here who bother to know what they are doing and are not reflexively depressed and despairing, we do deserve a means to show we are insurable even if have a roof raise (Still shorter than some stick RVs, at that) or a properly secured wood stove, or a deck with unfolding proper height railings which latch into place.


Dismissing that with false and circular arguments gets us right back where we are, and claims we all deserve to be in this shape.


The RVIA wasn't created in heaven for the benefit of RV builders -- people who build RVs started it on their own.
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins View Post
A 18" roof raise raises about 2000lbs by that amount, and adds about half that in weight overall if you are doing a window delete -- and of course the weight of glass comes off that. The glass and frames weighs more than the same area of steel.


Just being a skoolie not carry kids and not having benches lowers the weight by about 9k~12klbs. (Err, I am thinking of my 70+ pax vehicle.)


Underslinging the usual 100 to 200gallons in tankage probably adds 1000lbs very low to the ground, and then there are the house batteries, heaters, generators and all other manner of fairly heavy materials going under the floor. A few more thousands of pounds.



It is fair to say a roof raised skoolie is more likely to tip over than a skoolie otherwise identical which is not raised -- there yes. To say the roof raised skoolie is more likely to tip over than a laden school bus is silly.


You people keep fussing that people won't follow the rules -- so what?


They don't follow the rules in the build, they don't get covered. They get into mishaps involved in not following the rules, and that's not covered.


Pathological skepticism is why can't have nice thing.


Insurance companies are not categorically refusing to cover skoolies because they are wise, knowledgeable, and reasonable, but because they are ignorant, stubborn, and lazy, and because the skoolie community has done nothing to give them any reason to reassess matters.


It won't happen for free.


Many people will build or will have built skoolies which can not qualify -- so what?


For the people here who bother to know what they are doing and are not reflexively depressed and despairing, we do deserve a means to show we are insurable even if have a roof raise (Still shorter than some stick RVs, at that) or a properly secured wood stove, or a deck with unfolding proper height railings which latch into place.


Dismissing that with false and circular arguments gets us right back where we are, and claims we all deserve to be in this shape.


The RVIA wasn't created in heaven for the benefit of RV builders -- people who build RVs started it on their own.
You are wrong about the center of gravity It is not lower. You go put your roof deck on a 18 inch raised roof. Add in your solar panels, don't forget the roof top A/C. All your shelves and so on.

Let us say the bus is designed to have depending on size 6000lbs 18 inches above the floor level. I'm not saying this as fact as I don't have that exact info.

Keeping it very simple here. Take your 2000lbs and elevate it 54 inches. you now have tripled the energy of that 2000lbs in a tip over event.

The thing about a person who built a skoolie, your not going to roll test every custom built skoolie. Your not 100% sure that the roof deck is not going to torpedo itself into another car during an accident. There is to many unknowns with out testing. Testing like an front offset car collision car manufactures perform. Blue bird runs there buses through tests. You modify it and the test is void.

Off base but we have a grader with a rops (roll over protection system) certified cab. The moment I drill or weld on that structure the ROPS is out of service untill repaired and approved by an engineer. The point is, certification is void when modifications are done.

But you got it all figured out. Go raise some capital, when you have that insurance company and tens of thousands skoolie owners are insured through you. Feel free to come back here and brag about it.
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:25 AM   #20
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I'm not going to argue with anyone about physics.


"Let us say the bus is designed to have depending on size 6000lbs 18 inches above the floor level. I'm not saying this as fact as I don't have that exact info." <-- What?


"Take your 2000lbs and elevate it 54 inches." <-- Why? an 18" raise is not 54".


The overturning moment is the result of the addition of all the torques the differing masses at differing heights above ground level have.


Try to please reply to what I actually said vs what you apparently think I said.


The roof probably already weighs 2000 pounds at about 11.5 feet in height. It is going to 13. Solar and AC might go be 2000 pounds (I don't think so and know mine will not be, but whatever.) at 13.25.


Weight at roughly 9 feet is dropping by 1500 pounds because the roof isn't starting there and it's just rib extension, skinning, and window deletes.


Weight at roughly 7 feet is dropping by 9k to 12k pounds, because kids and their seats aren't in it.


Weight at roughly 3 feet is going up by several tons of tankage, batteries, and what not.


Every appliance and counter and whatever I have at roughly 7 feet doesn't go over 5000 pounds back in at about 7.



Bottom line is the skoolie is even with assumptions generous to your idea, a little less likely to go over than is a school bus full of kids.


Leverage is not magic, it's math.
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