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Old 12-12-2018, 06:15 AM   #341
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EC - some alternators have a minimum RPM to start charging.. so sometimes you have to run the RPM up to like 1000 or so to get it to "turn-on". I dont know the 3126 but it also could be if the 3126 grid heater does like the 444E glowplugs.. they stay on for a minute or so after you start the bus.. this results in the voltage gauge reading low for a minute or so then all the sudden clicking up to 13 or so when they shut off.. my 444E will idle at like 11.9 volts or so for a minute (longer in colder weather) until the glowplugs kick off.. (grid hester in your case).



-Christopher
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:38 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by brokedown View Post
If your alternator is like mine, it won't actually engage until the first time it hits about 1500 alternator rpm. From Bosch:

What does “turn-on speed” mean?

The Alternator RPM at which it initially supplies current when the engine is turned on. The turn-on speed of the Long Hauls and the SB200 is about 1500 alternator rpm (Engine rpm approx. 500), if the L terminal is not connected. The turn-on speed of the Long Haul Alternators is about 1200 alternator rpm (Engine rpm around 400) if the L-terminal is connected
Mine didn't come on until about 800-1000 engine rpm.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:41 AM   #343
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EC - some alternators have a minimum RPM to start charging.. so sometimes you have to run the RPM up to like 1000 or so to get it to "turn-on". I dont know the 3126 but it also could be if the 3126 grid heater does like the 444E glowplugs.. they stay on for a minute or so after you start the bus.. this results in the voltage gauge reading low for a minute or so then all the sudden clicking up to 13 or so when they shut off.. my 444E will idle at like 11.9 volts or so for a minute (longer in colder weather) until the glowplugs kick off.. (grid hester in your case).



-Christopher
Ah, thanks Chris and Josh! This is exactly what its doing.
There was a little warning light that stayed on until the alternator kicked in.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:54 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by brokedown View Post
From Bosch:

What does “turn-on speed” mean?
Grrrr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
EC - some alternators have a minimum RPM to start charging.. so sometimes you have to run the RPM up to like 1000 or so to get it to "turn-on". I dont know the 3126 but it also could be if the 3126 grid heater does like the 444E glowplugs.. they stay on for a minute or so after you start the bus.. this results in the voltage gauge reading low for a minute or so then all the sudden clicking up to 13 or so when they shut off.. my 444E will idle at like 11.9 volts or so for a minute (longer in colder weather) until the glowplugs kick off.. (grid hester in your case).
-Christopher
I'm ok with the latter but I do not like the former!!!! I like my vehicles and electronics dumb. If the pulley is turning, it's making voltage. I'd be at the part store already with a new one on order all because it doesn't start until 1k~1.2k rpm?!!? Pissed I would be.


Co-workier is building a caterham from the ground up. He's looking at a 2 wire alternator. It varies based on even duty cycle of the injectors. To hell with that.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:49 AM   #345
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all alternators have a minimum speed... its on purpose.. you dont want a heavy magnetic field at such a low RPM.. the unit wouldnt be able to make a good DC voltage above 12 volts unless it spins a certain speed.. the BOSCH SB-200s run in SI mose will put voltage out at 1200 Alternator RPM... a 3:1 pulley means 400 engine RPM as Josh mentioned.. the leese neville stuff seems to start a bit higher... when running them in single wire mode its necessary to start them higher as they have a circuit to help determine battery voltagew by amp flow and output wire voltage.. you'll sometimes see a single wire bosch alternator drop off and right back on a 1/2 second later.. this is its voltage sense in single wire mode..



EC - you likely wont see the grids stay on much after start when the engine is warm or outside temp is warm... its a cold weather thing to help the engine run better when cold.. you guys recently had a cooler than n ormal spell so it probably trigered that operation..



that light symbol is the universal international symbol for glow-plug or pre-heat... my old pegueot had the same light on its dash for cold starts..
-Christopher
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:57 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
all alternators have a minimum speed... its on purpose.. you dont want a heavy magnetic field at such a low RPM.. the unit wouldnt be able to make a good DC voltage above 12 volts unless it spins a certain speed.. the BOSCH SB-200s run in SI mose will put voltage out at 1200 Alternator RPM... a 3:1 pulley means 400 engine RPM as Josh mentioned.. the leese neville stuff seems to start a bit higher... when running them in single wire mode its necessary to start them higher as they have a circuit to help determine battery voltagew by amp flow and output wire voltage.. you'll sometimes see a single wire bosch alternator drop off and right back on a 1/2 second later.. this is its voltage sense in single wire mode..



EC - you likely wont see the grids stay on much after start when the engine is warm or outside temp is warm... its a cold weather thing to help the engine run better when cold.. you guys recently had a cooler than n ormal spell so it probably trigered that operation..



that light symbol is the universal international symbol for glow-plug or pre-heat... my old pegueot had the same light on its dash for cold starts..
-Christopher
Thank you!!! I learn new stuff all the time on here.
Far as I can tell this as close to a brand new bus as I may ever get. It was definitely a limited-use bus. Maybe an alternate or backup bus. The engine still looks almost new.
Hoping I finally got a keeper!
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:59 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
all alternators have a minimum speed... its on purpose.. you don't want a heavy magnetic field at such a low RPM.. the unit wouldn't be able to make a good DC voltage above 12 volts unless it spins a certain speed.. the BOSCH SB-200s run in SI mode will put voltage out at 1200 Alternator RPM... a 3:1 pulley means 400 engine RPM as Josh mentioned.. the leese neville stuff seems to start a bit higher... when running them in single wire mode its necessary to start them higher as they have a circuit to help determine battery voltage by amp flow and output wire voltage.. you'll sometimes see a single wire bosch alternator drop off and right back on a 1/2 second later.. this is its voltage sense in single wire mode..
That's why I have a battery and a voltage regulator. I don't need no none of that fancy crap. Laws of physics say as soon as that sucker is spinning, there's voltage. Copper and iron don't lie. Electronics, well that's another set of dam lies!!
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:01 AM   #348
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That's why I have a battery and a voltage regulator. I don't need no none of that fancy crap. Laws of physics say as soon as that sucker is spinning, there's voltage. Copper and iron don't lie. Electronics, well that's another set of dam lies!!
You probably have the "fancy crap". My bus is a 99 same as yours. Different engines but I doubt the alternators are radically different.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:02 AM   #349
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Something I've never actually done before and I'm usure about- the stop arm on the front bumper. It needs to go. I'll pull it off after the decals. Anything I need to know?
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:19 AM   #350
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You probably have the "fancy crap". My bus is a 99 same as yours. Different engines but I doubt the alternators are radically different.
Probably but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

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Something I've never actually done before and I'm usure about- the stop arm on the front bumper. It needs to go. I'll pull it off after the decals. Anything I need to know?
The bolts are a pain in the arse. The arm is gone but the plate/cabling/something is still on mine. One of the bolts loosened half way before cross threading. I finally took an angle grinder to it and cut it semi recently. I haven't gone chasing the rest of it yet as I use it for a place to stand once in awhile. I need to build me a little catwalk that doesn't come out any further than the mirrors.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:32 AM   #351
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I'm ok with the latter but I do not like the former!!!! I like my vehicles and electronics dumb. If the pulley is turning, it's making voltage. I'd be at the part store already with a new one on order all because it doesn't start until 1k~1.2k rpm?!!? Pissed I would be.

There's a reason these alternators do this! Engineers spent many thousands of dollars doing this and not just for nothing. One reason is to lessen the load on the starting circuit and batteries ... and also for the belt(s) to get the alternator actually spinning up to speed before a heavy load, otherwise you could get belt slip and never get the alternator up to speed in the first place.


I figure factories and engineers do things a specific way for a reason, and I shouldn't undo it unless I have educated myself enough to know what I am doing and why I am (un)doing it in the first place.


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Something I've never actually done before and I'm unsure about- the stop arm on the front bumper. It needs to go. I'll pull it off after the decals. Anything I need to know?

Mine was air actuated. Easy enough. Disconnect the air line, undo the bolts, and off it comes. Mine had an electromagnet to hold the end, one wire and a couple bolts later, that came off too. I removed the air line all the way into the dash and disconnected it from the air-relays. I left the air supply as it will be repurposed for an air horn.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:44 AM   #352
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There's a reason these alternators do this! Engineers spent many thousands of dollars doing this and not just for nothing. One reason is to lessen the load on the starting circuit and batteries ... and also for the belt(s) to get the alternator actually spinning up to speed before a heavy load, otherwise you could get belt slip and never get the alternator up to speed in the first place.

I figure factories and engineers do things a specific way for a reason, and I shouldn't undo it unless I have educated myself enough to know what I am doing and why I am (un)doing it in the first place.
They do it so they can call it new and improved. You the consumer are then up-charged 17 different times thru the distribution system before getting your hands on some new fangled thing that will keep your car from starting because the left turn signal needs a new 37 cent light bulb which you can't replace because Engineer #1 has a buddy, Engineer #2, who went to the same school. Now you have to buy a $187 tail light assembly just to move your car to the other side of the driveway.


I really need to go find another '72 Dust with the 225 slant 6 engine. IF you can kill it (mighty big if, I tried and failed)you can fix it with a screwdriver and duct tape. Duct tape sticks to everything except electrons. Those are some slippery little bastards.


Quote:
Mine was air actuated. Easy enough. Disconnect the air line, undo the bolts, and off it comes. Mine had an electromagnet to hold the end, one wire and a couple bolts later, that came off too. I removed the air line all the way into the dash and disconnected it from the air-relays. I left the air supply as it will be repurposed for an air horn.
My air was disconnected before picking up the bus and capped (I assume). The front stop was done. The side stop was there. Both disconnected.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:54 AM   #353
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Is your stop sign air or electric? If it's air, there's probably an electric air valve in your electric panel. You can disable the air flow by just removing the power lead to it. Better would be to trace the feed line all the way back and cap it off.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:44 PM   #354
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Probably but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

The bolts are a pain in the arse. The arm is gone but the plate/cabling/something is still on mine. One of the bolts loosened half way before cross threading. I finally took an angle grinder to it and cut it semi recently. I haven't gone chasing the rest of it yet as I use it for a place to stand once in awhile. I need to build me a little catwalk that doesn't come out any further than the mirrors.
The bolts I can deal with. A sawzall, a torch, a grinder... I'll get those one way or another if the impact doesn't get em.
The wiring and such is what I'm wondering about.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:46 PM   #355
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Is your stop sign air or electric? If it's air, there's probably an electric air valve in your electric panel. You can disable the air flow by just removing the power lead to it. Better would be to trace the feed line all the way back and cap it off.
Thanks. I'll check it out today or tomorrow. I've been avoiding the bus as I've had other stuff going on but I'm wanting to have this bus done by Feb.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:55 PM   #356
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There's a reason these alternators do this! Engineers spent many thousands of dollars doing this and not just for nothing. One reason is to lessen the load on the starting circuit and batteries ... and also for the belt(s) to get the alternator actually spinning up to speed before a heavy load, otherwise you could get belt slip and never get the alternator up to speed in the first place.


I figure factories and engineers do things a specific way for a reason, and I shouldn't undo it unless I have educated myself enough to know what I am doing and why I am (un)doing it in the first place.





Mine was air actuated. Easy enough. Disconnect the air line, undo the bolts, and off it comes. Mine had an electromagnet to hold the end, one wire and a couple bolts later, that came off too. I removed the air line all the way into the dash and disconnected it from the air-relays. I left the air supply as it will be repurposed for an air horn.
Air horn is on the to-do list. IDK if there's already a line for an air seat but its got one, it just doesn't work.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:59 PM   #357
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They do it so they can call it new and improved. You the consumer are then up-charged 17 different times thru the distribution system before getting your hands on some new fangled thing that will keep your car from starting because the left turn signal needs a new 37 cent light bulb which you can't replace because Engineer #1 has a buddy, Engineer #2, who went to the same school. Now you have to buy a $187 tail light assembly just to move your car to the other side of the driveway.

That may hold some truth in the personal vehicle world, but buyers of school buses don't stand for such nonsense. Look at any modern car, you need special tools, 3 arms and 17 fingers just to open the dash, and the flexibility of a contortionist to do any work inside it. Now look at a school bus dash, most of which can be disassembled with a simple, common #2 Philips screwdriver in about 5 minutes. Buses are designed to be inexpensive to build (as much as reasonably possible), because each company is competing with the others to get bids for replacement buses. They don't sell based on style, color availability, or passenger comfort. They sell based on purchase cost, estimated fuel economy (often with real-world testing to back up those claims), future parts availability, reliability, and cost-of-maintenance, which includes how much work can be done in-house as opposed to dealerships.


So if I were a buyer for a school district and I'm consider Brand A, on which 95% of everything is easily serviced by our own shops, or Brand B, on which 70% of everything needs special tools and diagnostics only available at a dealer (and assuming all other factors are close to equal), which do you think I'd buy? You think I'm sending a bus to a dealer for a blown taillight? Or buying one I can have fixed in house for less? School Bus manufacturers are not oblivious to this.
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Old 12-12-2018, 01:25 PM   #358
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That may hold some truth in the personal vehicle world, but buyers of school buses don't stand for such nonsense. Look at any modern car, you need special tools, 3 arms and 17 fingers just to open the dash, and the flexibility of a contortionist to do any work inside it. Now look at a school bus dash, most of which can be disassembled with a simple, common #2 Philips screwdriver in about 5 minutes. Buses are designed to be inexpensive to build (as much as reasonably possible), because each company is competing with the others to get bids for replacement buses. They don't sell based on style, color availability, or passenger comfort. They sell based on purchase cost, estimated fuel economy (often with real-world testing to back up those claims), future parts availability, reliability, and cost-of-maintenance, which includes how much work can be done in-house as opposed to dealerships.


So if I were a buyer for a school district and I'm consider Brand A, on which 95% of everything is easily serviced by our own shops, or Brand B, on which 70% of everything needs special tools and diagnostics only available at a dealer (and assuming all other factors are close to equal), which do you think I'd buy? You think I'm sending a bus to a dealer for a blown taillight? Or buying one I can have fixed in house for less? School Bus manufacturers are not oblivious to this.

unfortunately brad the days of the easy to disassemble school busses are gone.. many of my friends / acuaintences run fleets... seen a safe-T-Liner C2? has a regular FL60 truck dash.. thats a total PITA to tear apart from what I hear... even the new IC CE series and Bluebird Visions have gone to that more plastic-and-snap-together impossiuble to fix style.. unfortiunately msking it more difficult for the average fleet mechanic to make a repair.. or to make someone's bus look sucky and crappy when its only a few years old because dirty greasy big-brute hands broke 3 of 5 tabs off of a plastic dash that wont ever fit back together tight again...



-Christopher
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:22 PM   #359
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I'm wanting to have this bus done by Feb.
It's starting to look like I'm done until AFTER Feb.



1) it's damn cold out there 2) I'm at a point where I'm done with solo work. 3) see 1, gf doesn't do well in cold.
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:46 PM   #360
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