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Old 07-19-2017, 04:09 PM   #261
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
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Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
im using the built in radiator loop cooler.. and so far the new 1000 runs lots cooler than the 545 did..

the program im running in my TCM keeps the converter locked pretty much all the time so it seems not to make much heat..

CAC and I dont see eye to eye on locked converter in 2nd gear.. I want it locked partially through 3rd and then all the way up.. they lock it going into 2nd..

thus far even in the hot heat and me driving it on the freeway i havent seen it go above 194.. and im running transynd synthetic fluid which is good up to a much higher heat than regular fluid.. transynd isnt cheap but every allison person I talked to said thats what should be used.. and for what the $$$ transmission, a little extra in fluid didnt hurt..
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:35 PM   #262
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The thing you were using is called a fin comb, usually used to straighten out bent fins on the coil
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:52 PM   #263
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yeah and i used it very gently so i didnt straighten the squiggly fins.. just to get me started peeling the dirt off...
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:52 PM   #264
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Nothing on my rad to tie into but glad to hear yours is running cool. And ditto the TranSynd. That is what's in mine. Way out in front of conventional fluids based on what I have read. But I still want some extra heat relief so I guess it will be an aftermarket rig with a fan. I will probably have to hang it somewhere under the bus so I'm thinking that having the fan blowing straight down might help slow the build up of crud on the fins. Might ought to wait until my CAC/Rad package arrives (hopefully Friday) and see if there is any room left up front.

Also need to check what size lines come off the tranny before ordering anyway.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:12 PM   #265
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my 1000 with SAE3 bell has #12 O-ring Boss fittings on it.. the normal for GM bell is #10 O-ring boss..

are hou using an SAE3 bell to your 4BT?

I used a fitting that took the #12 ORB down to a #10 flare so i could use the radiator trans cooler.. #12 is overkill for what we are doing with these transmissions.. the cooler fittings are in the bell so im guessing allison uses that bell on multiple models..

-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:19 PM   #266
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The bell is an SAE3 but I haven't even taken a look at the fittings yet. Need to crawl under and take a peek but it's tricky trying to guess hydro fittings. I might out to contact Allison to see what it came with.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:08 PM   #267
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you probably have the same fittings as I do.. according to CAC, the SAE3 bell for 1000 / 2000 are the same thing.

I know one thing it sure is nice to have lockup.. it was 96 degrees eventually here today and I ran the bus on the freeway.. the only time I ever saw my engine temp hit 206 was only because the fan was not running.. and it reaches 205 / 206 and turns on the fan.. and would get all the way back to 195 and shut off... that NEVER happened with my AT545.. with that trans i wouldve been running 210-215 with my fan on continuously.. and my oil temp wouldve been 216-218.. today my oil temp was 196 - 202.. never higher..

my cooling problem appears to be SOLVED!!
-Christopher
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:30 PM   #268
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My at545 has cooling lines out the top. Can not see them from below, at least not easily.

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Old 07-20-2017, 12:51 AM   #269
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Based on what I am seeing online, the 1000 & 2000 have the in & out lines at the front on the passenger side on bottom, right across from the external filter.
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Old 07-20-2017, 04:41 AM   #270
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Correct, the 545 has the lines on top as #10 o ring boss, my 1000 has them on bottom as #12 as tango describes. Next to filter.

The filter on a 545 is an external setup going in series with the cooler lines.

On the 1000 the spin on filter port is part of the bell.
Christopher
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:45 PM   #271
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welcome to *MY* realm!! I got a different allison TCM to play with so I could jack with the transmission programming and really Dial it in.. so i plugged it in (thats the beauty.. just plug it in and go... it is designed with a J1939 throttle so it will see my throttle inputs from the CAC box in front of it...

connect up my EFI Flashscan and start it up.. you can watch many parameters in the transmission as you drive.. its pretty neat..

IMG_2068.jpg


and then onto tuning.. rthere are tons of things to tune... and lots I still have to learn.. this screen is looking at 6th gear and when during 6th gear my TCC or converter clutch will engage.. the exsting program disengages it at any throttle of 37.5% or more at any speed (remember its 6th gear.. so you havew to edit the gar profile as well.. and as you can see the faster you go the more it will keep the TCC engaged at deeper throttle..

for me I'll probabkt always leave it on in 6th.. and I'll call for a downshift to 5th before id run 6th in slip mode..

IMG_2070.jpg

so in my upcoming roadtrips I figure ill have time to play with my tunes along the way..

-Christopher
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:18 PM   #272
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Amazing work so far with your conversion Christopher. You are almost finished I take it. What an amazing system and how you understand its operation and installation is priceless information for us all.

Glad mine is an old 5 speed standard though. Just listen to it and shift. autos are great for what your bus was built for more than when mine was built.

Congratulations,

John
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:13 PM   #273
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Amazing capabilities the new trans (and you) have there. Just wish I understood a single word of it. Please...try to keep educating us old timers!
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:24 PM   #274
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Tango we may need to work on yours if your trans guy keeps flaking out lolol
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:59 PM   #275
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Roger that Cadillac. I just yesterday got confirmation he will NOT be back this way for quite some time. He decided on taking flying lessons in search of a new career path.

Getting desperate on a couple of trans related issues. No idea if I have the TPS set up properly or not. Then there are all those wires and fancy computer doo-hikeys. Maybe I should have gone with a clutch and three on the tree.
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Old 07-22-2017, 10:10 PM   #276
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Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
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tango - did all your parts come from S&S or did you get some of it from CA conversions also?
I probably cant program your 5th gen TCM.. (no one but allison can... they locked it down pretty tight).

truth is any TCM 2006 and newer (some older) can run standalone with just a TPS.. there are several ways it can be set up..without seeing some of your setup I dont know how they have you doing it..

you *should* have the tap up / down capability on yours.. which is a REAL nicde feature.. you basically use a nice little switch to tell it the max gear you want to be in.. climbing mountains.. easy to lock out 6th gear.. but still have 5th..

the mechanical shifter on a 2000 usually is D (through 6th).. then 4-2-1 so you lose the ability to go just 5-4-3-2-1..

ive already locked my 6th gear out purposely on a couple drives ive made where I was going up and down some mild hills..

-Christopher
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:11 PM   #277
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This is awesome! Is there any chance you can timestamp your data from the TCM monitor and from your tablet monitor, or add a "click track" so that you could see what the engine parameters were when the TCM commanded its actions? Stuff like turbo boost pressure, EGT, etc would be interesting to correlate to the transmission decisions.

How much of this stuff is the Allison box aware of as input parameters? Throttle, RPM, and ??? Is there a torque sensor anywhere in the driveline?

The more I think about it, I like the idea of recording every parameter I can with timestamp, dumping it to the cloud, and letting Google Analytics see if they can find patterns in it.
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:57 PM   #278
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see thats the issue.. well with ruinning standalone anyway... there are lots of parameters that exist. but these companies offering standalone solutions have a common theme.. just send it TPS and thats it.. thats an Old-school way of handling a transmission... simpler is better right? sometimes but not always..

mechanical transmissions had a vacuum line or a cable going to the transmission. which modulated shift-lione pressure... that coupled with the springs in the valve body and increasing pump pressures with RPM created your shift patterns on mechanical automatics .. even the AT545 and MT643 commonly found in achool busses..

early electronic transmissions were just electrically shifted mechanical transmissions.. the likes of the 4L60E, E4AOD fords, etc.. the likes of these started appearing in the 90s.. they typically got MAP (vacuum) and throttle position both in electronic form sent to to them.. so they have the ability to see driver demanded engine request and actual engine load... a really nice way to control a transmission.. so even if you are at 100% load... if the drivers foot is only 1/2 way down, you can assume that the driver is fine with where things are at... as well the computer can see if the vehicle is keeping up or not... it has the VSS so it knows if we are slowing down or speeding up...

enter in the most modern of transmission integrations... full-on ECM to TCM integration... lots of things are sent through... the engine reacts to the transmission as well as the typical trans reacting to the engine..

ie in the past shift smoothness for driver comfort was handled by slow-shifting a transmission.. effectively shifting the clutches slower... this results in more wear and heat on a transmission.. under full throttle shifts were harder but still smooth..

nowadays on a modern car shift smoothness is handled by the transmission telling the engine (hey im gonna shift).. and the engine reduces the throttle till the shift is completed... (de-fueling).. the result is the trans can engage the clutch quickly and the driver feels the same soft shift they like... less wear and heat on the trans.

now lets talk retrofitting an vehicle with a new trans.. ie this conversion here..

aftermarket companies make all kinds of "black boxes" tyhat will talk to the allison TCM... ultimately you need the allison TCM... though a few are working on making their own TCM..

allisons have the ability to take in various inputs.. however they hold their communications guides close to the chest... the likes of manufacturers who buy 1000s of transmissions nbot only getr those documents but also allison will build custome TCM loads for them... most school busses are running s 'Medium Duty' load.. and there is level 1 ECM to TCM communications...

from what i can tell TPS and engine load are the 2 big ones.. in fact even if a J1939 CAN net isnt used.. a stock allison TCM can read those 2 things by analog PWM input... and ultimately thiose are the 2 single most importanbt pieces of input.. what is the driver demanding and what is the engine giving... the trans internally knows the vehicle speed rate of increase. and by its adaptive learning it learns the vehicle weight...

if you reset the adaptive fast-learn bit on a TCM.. the procedure is to go drive it like you stole it... on as flat of ground as possible, with full throttle from a stop up to as high gear as safely possible.. you have already plugged into the TCM the tire sizes, gear ratio, engine max torque and the trans ratios (TCMs are used on more than one so you tell it what its own ratios are).. now when you do your fast learn, the trans learns how quickly it can accelerate under full load.. and it knows the rate of slippage on the clutches.. so it develops the best possible shifts for you.. (and they are TERRIBLE at first as you saw in the first video..)..

and it also keeps track of your right-now driving conditions.. for instance when I take my bus out on a road that has up and down hills. where its constantly dropping out of 6th gear to 5th t omake a hill.. after a couple of them, its leaving it in 5th longer to see if im going to hit another... once it sees me steady out on speed and throttle for a bit it goes right back to 6th... anbd a quick punch and release will drop it to 5th and then right back to 6th.. so it learns...

these aftermarket companies typically feed only TPS to the trans.. or if they are feeding engine load, its a manufactured number to keep the TCM happy... so we have lost one of the key functions that the transmission can use to adjust itself.. it never knows the real engine load... it can manufacture it within itself or if said "black box" does it then it "sees" it.. but its not real... as the only thing you wire up to said "box" is the TPS... no comms link..

cruise control leaves the pedal up all the time... so the transmission is assuming you are at light throttle.. esp if the converter is locked.. the only way the transmission really measures any kind of torque input is when the converter is unlocked and it can get the spin difference.. and the TCM isprogrammed with the various parameters of your chosen torque converter.. but most of the black boxes lock your converter up quickly... as running locked as much as possible generates less slip, better economy and more efficient operation...
CAC;'s method forhandling cruise is simply manual intervention.. press the tap up or down buttons as needed,, Ok point-taken we are Driving our busses.. and so part of driving may mean intervention... i get it.. but I really dont like it... after all i have an automatic for a reason...

so MY AIM is to talk to my ECM and snag engine load data, cruise data, real TPS data and manufacture my own TPS value while in cruise mode.. my ECM sends me that data over the J1708 bus.. (the transmission recognizes J1939 not 170... so my task is a "black box" that can push the data through to the TCM as it wants.. after all I can monitor engine load, cruise modes, and the rate of speed drop or accel. and can forge a TPS value.. as well as send real engine load... and tell the transmission my actual and demanded... thus restoring the fact I have an automatic transmission...

tuning it finely gets into a totally more in depth piece... and I REALLY love your idea of pulling my data and pushingit to google analytics.. what a super idea.. I believe i can grab any sensor data as a comma delimited file when I record it... and thus it would be real easy for me to write a script to push that data out to google

I realize this gets much deeper than most go... but you have to understand this *IS* a big part of the fun for me... while others find fun in building out really nice woodwork.. or super cool furniture they build into their busses... its *THIS* that gets me pumped up...

it was the same on my hotrods... the drive-tune-drive-tune. pieces were some of the most challenging but also the most fun!

-Christopher
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Old 07-26-2017, 05:42 PM   #279
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Is the TCM the latest from Alison or one that dates to the transmission manufacturer date? It maybe that it has no built in options.

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Old 07-26-2017, 07:41 PM   #280
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Join Date: May 2009
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Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the tuneable TCM is a few years back...(A41) only certain options can be tuned with 3rd party software... the TCM that came with my trans which is read only is a late 4th gen.. (A53) no one has cracked the 5th gen TCMs yet..

for what im doing theres really not much difference between an A41 and an A53 TCM... they are both 6 speed 4th gen TCM's with tapshift and adaptive learn... the A53 has more memory in it so I guess the adaptive leaern is supposed to be better.. but i havent seen it do anything different shift quality wise than the A41.. other than the A53 I cant touch the tune in it without allison DOC and an allison certification... im thinking someone told me im about 5K and a lot of time getting both of those
-Christopher
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