Hybrid Bus Advice

[Mandinee1]

By the way, can someone tell me where on the forum would be the most appropriate place for me to ask questions like "Should i buy this particular bus..." or "What does everyone think of this bus" etc.?

[Doktari]

I thought Mercedes and others researched biodiesel extensively and determined it would cause engine damage from long term use?!. I dont remember what blends they used. True or not I decided I don't want to be the guinea pig experiment. I ran commercially made biodiesel for a few thousand miles and my own biodiesel for maybe a thousand miles in various blends. I did not get the quality control to the level I wanted so gave up making it and using it.
I drove my 2004 6.0 Powerstroke E450 across the country four times with no problem. It sure ran great for a diesel. But I got tired of worrying if it was going to crap out on me and sold it. It had egr delete but original head bolts. The new owner called me a couple weeks after buying it and told me the transmission went out. All that time worrying about the engine and the transmission was weak. Which brings me to newer Ford transmissions. Ive met a bunch of people who have had issues with them. Post 1998? My older 1991 Ford is still going strong.
I was told if you keep the 6.0 PS engine the original horsepower, no chip, etc, they will last ok? I drive gently might be the other reason it didn’t go out in me.
My 2 cents worth.

[joeblack5]

Haha, I would be all over that bus. If it is indeed an hybrid electric as in Chevy volt. The biodiesel means nothing.. all diesels can tun on bio. I am probably more technical adventurous. But a no doubt lithium battery bank would be pretty nice integrated in the design. I also like the cab over design that could easily be a sleeping place for the kids.
It being a modern city bus means that standing height must be reasonable.



And oh yeah because it is just such a shitty engine that means that there are thousands in the junkyard for cheap.
I would for sre take a look at it and see what kind of hybrid / electric this really is... and how large the battery bank is.


my 0.02


Johan

[EastCoastCB]

YOu'd have to be a straight masochist to want a maxxforce. Maybe a Maxxochist?

[Sehnsucht]

Johan, that's what I was thinking as well. The driveline driven by some sort of electrical motor and the engine simply providing electrical charge to the battery pack makes the choice of engine almost a moot point. Theoretically you could install any ICE big enough to turn the generator coil. IRL though it's never as simple as that so that's why I said initially it would be a good project bus, not a good reliable bus.

If I might also disagree with Cheese Wagon on one point - the EGR/non-DEF preference isn't in my understanding the most favorable position to take. As I understand it, EGR is what doomed the MaxxForce line altogether because Navistar was trying to avoid adding the DEF requirement to their engines but in the real world that proved not up to the challenge. DEF isn't without it's problems either but as far as I know everyone eventually agreed it was superior to EGR. That's why International ended up settling multiple lawsuits and now their lineup includes DEF equipped engine models. The buses of the era we are usually shopping could be either/or since it was during this time period when all the emissions technology was coming to market.

[Mandinee1]

In case anyone was interested, these are the replies I got from the seller of the bus I posted in some e-mail exchanges:

It is a 7.6L (466 cid) International MaxForce DT diesel and an automatic transmission.
It was a city of Manchester NH passenger bus. It is a hybrid bio diesel over electric.

outside it is 36 feet long and 8 feet wide and 12 feet high.
inside it is 26 feet long from the back of the bus to the back of the drivers seat and 30 feet to the dashboard and 7'6" form floor to ceiling.

Food truck was the intention but plans have changed. It is very adaptable for a motor home, more so than a school but and it is much nicer looking. There is a ton of space underneath for all the water, gray and black water tanks as well as lots of space underneath for storage compartments. It drives and rides very nice. This rig, I don't know that it will ever wear out, they go for sometimes, over a million miles.

The hybrid is the diesel/electric. When the rig is running you always hear the engine but at low speeds or more so a lack of a lot demand, the bus runs on electricity kind of in the same manner a diesel locomotive works in that the engines on a train are in short, running a generator that turns the electric motors that are out at each wheel, that is a train and that is why freight trains get phenomenal miles per gallon. A diesel freight train moves one ton of freight just under 500 miles on a single gallon of fuel. This, the bus just takes over the engines job at the transmission and in turn powers the wheels off a battery bank that the engine is always charging when the bus is running. The bus being a city bus was more of a political move telling the city folk, hey look where doing our part to save the planet. beyond that the cost of the bus originally could never make up the savings in it being more efficient. It is more efficient but at the original cost being probably 80K dollars more than a straight diesel buys a LOT of fuel.
I know there are a few, although I have never seen one, there are biodiesel pumps around but at that, because to run diesel's off of fryolator oil and such, some modification need to be done to cars and trucks to enable them to be able to run off it. This came from the factory capable of using vegetable oils and such. Hence "bodies".
And as to how I have dealt with the bidiesel is easy, I have never put French fry oil in it because I haven't had the need. We have hardly run it since we got it and the couple time I have fuel it, I have put diesel fuel from the gas station in it. I don't know that I ever would put anything other than diesel in it unless I had a restraint or knew someone that wanted to give it to me for free because from what I understand, it would have to preferred and treated somehow before it could be used but I'm sure the particulars could be found on youtube. I think if you make it yourself you have to add lye to it to keep it from hardening up like shortening in the tank. I really don't know.
We bought it because it's size and condition and looks not the biodiesel fact although buying it because of the electric hybrid was a deal, they are usually $35 thousand and up.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

Johan, that's what I was thinking as well. The driveline driven by some sort of electrical motor and the engine simply providing electrical charge to the battery pack makes the choice of engine almost a moot point. Theoretically you could install any ICE big enough to turn the generator coil. IRL though it's never as simple as that so that's why I said initially it would be a good project bus, not a good reliable bus.

If I might also disagree with Cheese Wagon on one point - the EGR/non-DEF preference isn't in my understanding the most favorable position to take. As I understand it, EGR is what doomed the MaxxForce line altogether because Navistar was trying to avoid adding the DEF requirement to their engines but in the real world that proved not up to the challenge. DEF isn't without it's problems either but as far as I know everyone eventually agreed it was superior to EGR. That's why International ended up settling multiple lawsuits and now their lineup includes DEF equipped engine models. The buses of the era we are usually shopping could be either/or since it was during this time period when all the emissions technology was coming to market.

Agree to disagree on that one, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. No offense taken. I can tell you that as an OTR driver, I drove Detroit DD15s, Paccar MX-10s, Maxxforce 11s and 13s, Volvo D13s which I derisively dubbed the


Also a Detroit 60, Cummins ISX, Cat 3406B, couple others. The Paccar MX derated twice due to DEF system problems -- in the same three weeks. Both times it had to be towed, as diesel emissions systems will cut the fuel and not allow the vehicle to go over 5-15 mph, if it allows it enough power to move at all. An EGR engine without DPF / DEF will not do that, even if it is underpowered from choking on its own exhaust. Out of 7 Volvos I was assigned, only three actually made it to the highway under load -- most I found a problem with on pre-trip before I ever hooked a trailer. Two of the other Volvo POSs derated just as the Paccar did, and both had to be towed. One of them only made it 200 miles.

Derating is a function of the engine controller cutting fuel when it senses a problem in the DPF / DEF system, and 90% of the time the problem was the DEF system in my experience. So quite simply, derating and related problems had far less to do with the engine or truck manufacturer, though the MaxxForce was a steaming pile of dog ---- to boot. That Detroit 60-powered Volvo was the only Volvo that did not let me down, and the only MaxxForce ProStar I ever drove that did not derate or go in the shop for related tendencies, they still managed to screw up by not sequencing the fuel transfer valve line feeds correctly (dual tanks, one fed into the other as the level dropped). Only package that never really let me down or left me stranded was a Freightliner with the Detroit DD15, out of at least 14 of these, only one ever had to go to the shop, once for a clogged DPF (at 475,000 miles), and once for a bad fuel gauge sending unit, common on the 2014 model. Drove one with the ISX once and hated it. Hence, I say in a perfect world, if the DD5 and DD8 are as good as their larger DD13 / DD15 brethren, skoolies would be infallible with those. But I digress.

MaxxForce... Don't even get me started, I've already outlined my experience with THAT sorry excuse for an engine. Food for thought, I watched a brand-new PornStar with a MaxxForce burn to the ground from a DPF fire before the company even had their lettering put on. Still had the dealer plastic wrap on the seats. Three weeks later it burned to a crisp and took three other trucks with it.



I honestly don't even like its alternative, the Cummins ISX. We call them Cummaparts for a reason. Three million truckers can't be wrong, unless they got their license at the (S)tevie (W)onder (I)nstitute (F)or (T)trucking. The 5.9 and 8.3 are much better by comparison.

OP seeks to put their life, and that of their family, in the hands of their conversion. Would you trust anything that was known to catch the vapors going down the road or spontaneously combust? I know I wouldn't. As Mr. Toad said, "Shan't! Won't!"

As a final nail in the coffin condemning hybrid / electric buses, my locality bought three or four pure electric transit buses. Bad move, they SUCKED in this hilly region. Passengers were literally having to debark and help push the POS when it couldn't make it up a hill even when empty. They were quietly furloughed and forgotten until they could be auctioned away in the night.

Originally Posted by joeblack5

And oh yeah because it is just such a shitty engine that means that there are thousands in the junkyard for cheap.
I would for sre take a look at it and see what kind of hybrid / electric this really is... and how large the battery bank is.

Be our guest Just don't say we didn't warn you. And just because thousands of that engine are in the junkyard for cheap doesn't mean they will be any better than the one you're replacing. Don't you think they are there for a reason?

Originally Posted by Doktari

Which brings me to newer Ford transmissions. Ive met a bunch of people who have had issues with them. Post 1998? My older 1991 Ford is still going strong.
I was told if you keep the 6.0 PS engine the original horsepower, no chip, etc, they will last ok? I drive gently might be the other reason it didn’t go out in me.
My 2 cents worth.

You owned, drove AND got rid of a PowerStroke without it grenading? And it actually outlasted the transmission? Keep your cheeks clinched tight walking into the store to buy a lottery ticket, so the horseshoe doesn't fall out... YOU GOT LUCKY.

"Cruisin' down the street in my 6-0... knockin' and weak... gaskets are blown..."



My theory (and it's just a theory, Fords are not 100% my forte, as I've owned far fewer) is that Ford overdrive automatics are generally weak, but are okay as long as they are not beat on and subjected to the increased torque of a diesel, especially combined with the added strain of an extra 3,500 lbs of bus body. Standard F150 with a gasser, probably just fine. GM's transmission quality control really is no better as of late. Allisons are the way to go, and some DuraMax engines got these, just be aware of the fuel system problems they bring with them.

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

YOu'd have to be a straight masochist to want a maxxforce. Maybe a Maxxochist?

Did someone say masochist? Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me...
Trucker joke, flatbedders do it with straps and chains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TytGOeiW0aE

There's a reason most OTR truckers called them MaxiPad engines -- you throw them away before too long. I just called them M-F for short, everyone laughed because they knew what I meant.

Originally Posted by Mandinee1

In case anyone was interested, these are the replies I got from the seller of the bus I posted in some e-mail exchanges:
The hybrid is the diesel/electric. When the rig is running you always hear the engine but at low speeds or more so a lack of a lot demand, the bus runs on electricity kind of in the same manner a diesel locomotive works in that the engines on a train are in short, running a generator that turns the electric motors that are out at each wheel, that is a train and that is why freight trains get phenomenal miles per gallon. A diesel freight train moves one ton of freight just under 500 miles on a single gallon of fuel. *snip* We bought it because it's size and condition and looks not the biodiesel fact although buying it because of the electric hybrid was a deal, they are usually $35 thousand and up. The bus being a city bus was more of a political move telling the city folk, hey look where doing our part to save the planet. beyond that the cost of the bus originally could never make up the savings in it being more efficient. It is more efficient but at the original cost being probably 80K dollars more than a straight diesel buys a LOT of fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJGUSrL63jE

BINGO. You learn quickly, grasshoppa. Interesting how when we read between the lines of political babble, we realize the hidden meaning of "read between the lines" (and if you don't know what I'm getting at, hold up your index, middle and third fingers together, then "read between the lines." What most proponents of diesel/electric setups such as this will not admit is that they are very costly to repair when they break. Those traction motors on each hub are NOT cheap, nor are they available at your local International dealer in-stock. And last, but not least, a typical truck mechanic may not be able to swap these out.

All that aside, I laugh at the BS 500 mpg claimed by trains. What they don't tell you is that it is moving many thousands of tons, and burning gallons per hour -- of dirty, carbon-based, off-road diesel, not the Ultra-Low-Sulfur Diesel for highway use... And they are not yet subject to emissions across the board, which means they are not yet catching the vapors with emissions equipment, but the coming Tier 4 requirements will ensure they embrace the same unreliability of some highway diesels of today. (Which, by the way, still spew carbon out when the DPF regenerates, it just does it in a short concentrated burst rather than over thousands of miles). We should ALL be so fortunate to have elevated levels of diesel soot in only select aquifers from rain runoff. Don't *YOU* feel better under the delusion that you're saving the planet?

[Kubla]

Locomotives are diesel/electric because they could not come up with a mechanical clutch that could take the torque of starting a 5000 ton train rolling. There are passenger trains in Europe that literally have giant automatic transmissions but they are much smaller and lighter than US freight trains. Hybrid busses are not diesel electric like a train, they have a direct connection from the engine to the drive wheels along with the electric motor, they get their fuel savings by using the electric motor to help start the bus moving which allows a smaller diesel engine and regenerative braking to recover energy while stopping which is stored in batferies

[Sehnsucht]

Originally Posted by Kubla

Locomotives are diesel/electric because they could not come up with a mechanical clutch that could take the torque of starting a 5000 ton train rolling. There are passenger trains in Europe that literally have giant automatic transmissions but they are much smaller and lighter than US freight trains. Hybrid busses are not diesel electric like a train, they have a direct connection from the engine to the drive wheels along with the electric motor, they get their fuel savings by using the electric motor to help start the bus moving which allows a smaller diesel engine and regenerative braking to recover energy while stopping which is stored in batferies

Is this how the Prius works? I remember commuting in one and the engine would only start once we were already rolling from a stop and also periodically to regenerate the batteries or if the driver 'punched it' I guess so it had battery and charger power. But I never thought the engine connected directly to the drive wheels because the engine RPM didn't correlate with our speed. I could see this being the case in a car or perhaps even pickup truck but a bus is a whole other animal. If the electrical drive component was only supplemental then I honestly can't see much point because that's the same size engine whether it's hybrid-electric or not. I'm kinda disappointed to be honest.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

Is this how the Prius works? I remember commuting in one and the engine would only start once we were already rolling from a stop and also periodically to regenerate the batteries or if the driver 'punched it' I guess so it had battery and charger power. But I never thought the engine connected directly to the drive wheels because the engine RPM didn't correlate with our speed. I could see this being the case in a car or perhaps even pickup truck but a bus is a whole other animal. If the electrical drive component was only supplemental then I honestly can't see much point because that's the same size engine whether it's hybrid-electric or not. I'm kinda disappointed to be honest.

**** MUST.... SLEEP *** (Initially said no to this) If I'm understanding both systems correctly, yes -- sort of. The Synergy-Drive system sort of pancakes the electric motor between the flywheel/flexplate and engine block, allowing either to drive a continuously variable transaxle (CVT), which is basically a centrifugal clutch, like a go-kart. CVTs do not show the typical engine RPM rise and fall of a conventional auto because they do only have one gear. The electric motor gets the car moving from a stop until the system detects hard acceleration or speed beyond 30, at which point the motor kicks against the engine, cranking it for the extra power needed (or to keep the batteries charged when not moving). The same motor kicks into regenerative braking when the accelerator is released. But it very much is inline with the engine as though they shared a common shaft.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Kubla

Locomotives are diesel/electric because they could not come up with a mechanical clutch that could take the torque of starting a 5000 ton train rolling. There are passenger trains in Europe that literally have giant automatic transmissions but they are much smaller and lighter than US freight trains. Hybrid busses are not diesel electric like a train, they have a direct connection from the engine to the drive wheels along with the electric motor, they get their fuel savings by using the electric motor to help start the bus moving which allows a smaller diesel engine and regenerative braking to recover energy while stopping which is stored in batferies

There ya go- from a guy that buys and drives electric and hybrid vehicles.

[ben_marko]

Mercedes is a huge proponent of bio. They build their BLUETEC diesels with bio in mind, as the EU mandates 5% bio in all petroleum diesel sold in the EU.

[Sehnsucht]

I recall fueling my Freightliner in Cali once and didn't get 100 miles before it started throwing engine codes and performance tanked. Come to find out Cali was pumping 20% biodiesel which is far more than Freightliner/Detroit intended.