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Old 04-11-2020, 06:04 PM   #21
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Location: Joshua Tree, California, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar1 View Post
Holy crap, chill Winston.
They make great diesels. More than likely they will be better taken care of! Please explain that statement, how the hell does brand choice make you more likely to be more diligent in your your maintenance? Take a breath, go fire up that awesome 6.0 and go for a cruise.
I didn't say that the brand name makes it. I just said that Navistar makes great diesels. Not the only great diesels. Cummins makes great diesels as well. Try and not read so much into my comment. You're reading out of it things I didn't write.

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Old 04-11-2020, 08:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_marko View Post
I didn't say that the brand name makes it. I just said that Navistar makes great diesels. Not the only great diesels. Cummins makes great diesels as well. Try and not read so much into my comment. You're reading out of it things I didn't write.
Actually I read everthing you wrote including where you suggested that everyone disregard the opinions of Argobus and EastCoastCB as a load of bunk, false, don't pay any attention to what these guys have to say. only listen to me my opinion is gospel. You do understand the definition of opinion right? Why is their opinion any less valid than yours? You said you sure hate it when know it all's pass rumour and innuendo as fact, you asked ECCB to back that up with some evidence, I asked you to back up your statement that ( more than likely they are better taken care of) what ever that means? some new bus buyers might see that as being Navistars are better taken care of than anything else on the market and get in to a real shitty deal. So I guess that's just you spreading that rumour and innuendo.

No need to respond any further, I've formed my opinion.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:58 PM   #23
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Fraser Valley British Columbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandinee1 View Post
Thanks for the tip. I was told the city automatically dumped it after 10 years not because of any problems, and the person who bought it had food truck plans they put aside. Here is the ad by the way:

https://nh.craigslist.org/cto/7098482441.html
One thing that I think no one has mentioned is you are thinking of a roof raise. I'm not seeing that happening structurally/easily with this body style( maybe I'm wrong) anyone?
Good luck in your search
Keep asking questions
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandinee1 View Post
Thanks for the tip. I was told the city automatically dumped it after 10 years not because of any problems, and the person who bought it had food truck plans they put aside. Here is the ad by the way:

https://nh.craigslist.org/cto/7098482441.html
Also, that bus is a 36 passenger (not 36 ft.). Its probably closer to 25 ft... 40 ft. busses are right around 84 passenger.
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_marko View Post
Navistar isn't crap. Back that up with some evidence, please. They designed the Ford 6.0L PSL is 2004 (only to have Ford @#$%# the coolant system, though). And the exhaust system was fine. That's an engine that was a marvel of engineering, putting out 734 foot-pounds of torque right off the factory floor. Navistar designs good engines and they're very popular in large diesel vehicles. They're good engines, and easier to find parts for as well. I sure hate it when know-it-alls try to pass rumor and innuendo off as fact.

You obviously know no one with a Ford diesel, the dealer lots have them all over awaitng litigation over their lously fuel systems crummy computers none of that having to do with the IH max force which has been replaced in almost all fleet service that run IH trucks with Cummins power regen cycles particulate filters and every other problem that could plague diesel seems to have settled on IH IH has not made a marvel of engineering since the the mechanical 7.3 a marvel of engineering runs well long and inexpensively none of those attributes fit either the 6.0 or any Maxx Force which is what the discussion started about. Gene
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ben_marko View Post
Such a load of bunk. Absolutely false. Don't pay attention to this post.

Most diesels will take biodiesel just fine. The only modifications have to do with fuel lines (older ones are not corrosion-resistant, so you would need to replace them - bio is mildly corrosive). I would check all your fuel lines to make sure that they are compatible (most modern diesels are). Most likely they're good as yours is a 2010 model. I would also recommend insulating your fuel tank as well. This can be done cheaply with insulation from your local big box hardware store. Bio has a "cloud point" at which the cold will cause crystals to form in the fuel from micro droplets of water - and petro diesel has these as well. Fuel pumps also will (mlost likely) have a heater built into them, but I would make sure of this as well. You also will need to find out when the last maintenance was done on the filters. Since bio does a really good job of cleaning out fuel lines, you would want to have spare ones on hand to change them out. But if it has already been running bio, then most likely the fuel lines are ok.

Here's a list of biodiesel stations in the USA:

Biodiesel Gas Station Locations in the United States

And the best part is, bio is completely soluble with petrodiesel.

And yes, bio is cheaper than petro diesel. A lot cheaper. Prices only go up marginally if you buy it rather than make your own.

Bio diesel is not less expensive in long run having run a fleet of more than 40 mixed make diesels my records showed slightly better fuel costs for bio and about 22% higher maint costs during first 2 years leveling out after that to about even.Bio was never less expensive overall.And in a non fleet situation is much harder to find. Gene
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
buses built after 2003 are quite more complex and expensive to keep alive.
This bus sounds like something expensive and complex. There's a reason its only 10 years old and getting dumped already.
You'll spend a lot more time and money with mechanics with a newer diesel than a properly maintained good running older one.

That is true. Gene
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mandinee1 View Post
Been doing a lot of research on busses (big shout out to these great forums) as my husband and I are looking to convert and live in a skoolie full time with our 2 year old daughter. This bus came up in our area (not many quality busses to be had around Maine), but I don't know much about the hybrid/electric busses and am looking for some advice.

2010 International hybrid/electric / bio diesel bus. It is a 7.6L (466 cid) International MaxForce DT diesel and an automatic transmission. It was a city bus.
Okay, grab yourself some soda and nachos --- This became a bit longer than I planned, but this is coming from someone with a little bit of experience with the larger MaxxForce engines (11 - 13L-range), having driven 18-wheelers over-the-road -- as well as well-networked with a few people who have owned / worked on / junked / got rid of the typical hybrid vehicles (Prius / Camry / Accord), etc.

I certainly don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I personally would not touch this thing with a 40-foot pole, and these are my reasons.

1) NaviStar's MaxxForce engines have the worst reliability rating in the trucking industry. I drove seven different ProStars equipped with these abominations in seven months -- every one of them stayed in the shop. Mostly emissions and electrical issues. Lots more zeroes involved than when a car or minivan requires attention.

2) When the heavy wrecker ($100 hookup and $10 / mi) arrived to tow one of these in, the operator told me that Volvos and ProStars were 85% of their business, mostly the Internationals because of the MaxxForce's crappy emissions system. The eighth one I drove was a good truck, but at one year old with 35k on it, it had better be, right? Wrong. That one's fuel lines had been incorrectly sequenced at the factory and caused quite a few problems before I figured out what was going on.

3) I have seen many a hybrid vehicle junked because of higher repair costs, or whisked off to auction to be sold overseas with malfunction lights covered in electrical tape because they would not go out, even after a complete battery pack replacement and full diagnostic that showed no codes. Remember, a bus is essentially a commercial truck, so anything that goes wrong with them, you can generally add at least one to two zeroes to the repair bill in comparison to an everyday vehicle -- even more so with a hybrid, as they are specialized and not common.

4) Which brings me to my next point -- Many hybrid owners are locked into dealers because not just anyone can work on the hybrid unit and battery packs. Last I checked, standard commercial truck dealer labor was clocking in at around $130-$180 PER HOUR. And not just any dealer tech will be able to work on a hybrid, either, a tech certified in the system will be required, which you won't necessarily find just anywhere.

And if the dealer is backlogged -- well, I hope you have an emergency fund for motel rooms, because sometimes I saw a week or two in a hotel waiting for some jobs to be done. For example, I spent 12 days in Shreveport LA the week before/of Harvey's arrival, and I had to go down to Campti, driving through six to nine inches of water on back roads to pick up a load to Mississippi, running like my life depended on it, because the storm was moving in fast from Corpus Christi. But I digress. Point being, downtime can be BAD juju under the wrong circumstances.

5) Bio-diesel has been known to cause problems with some engines, particularly in certain climates. I was under strict orders at every carrier I drove for to NEVER fuel with bio-diesel. I think it had something to do with clogging filters and causing other fuel system problems. It really doesn't burn any cleaner than ULSD anyway, once you account for DPF / DEF systems, which are a PITA of their own category -- it is simply the selling point of being renewable, 'green' fuel. The commercials for biodiesel specifically state a lot of it is made from algae. Ask any marine-diesel boat owner about algae in their fuel and what a problem it is.

Side note here -- You would be well-advised to steer clear of CNG and LPG-powered models as well. Reason being that neither fuel source is readily available just anywhere, the tanks must be certified and checked meticulously every so often, they are extremely costly to replace, and make the vehicle a veritable bomb -- and that's all assuming it skates under the 119-gallon HazMat threshold. I'm not sure an LPG/CNG vehicle's onboard fuel tanks are exempt from this. Unless you know someone who can easily convert the vehicle to diesel or gas, whichever applies, I would pass on these as well. Power and fuel range are terrible. The only benefit is that the fuel burns clean, not enough to outweigh the current caveats.

IF you find a gas model that is Flex-Fuel, keep in mind that these engines CAN run on E85... But some of these have been known to get stuck in one mode or another when switching fuel mixtures, which usually mean a trip to the dealer.

But if they are NOT Flex-Fuel...do not run anything above E15 in '07+ models, and do not run anything above E10 in anything older than an '06. These engines are not designed for higher concentrations of ethanol and it WILL damage them.

As I stated previously, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but think long and hard about whether you want a $1300 tow bill or an $8000 repair bill that will completely outweigh any fuel you save -- which I've observed has been the case for many conventional hybrid owners. Anyone here can tell you that repairs on conventional diesel-powered models are expensive enough. I think the potential issues you will run into with such a beast will not only ruin you financially, they will completely sour you on the skoolie experience, which can be quite awesome -- but choose wisely. One nice thing about a skoolie -- as long as it's converted well and the conversion does not hinder serviceability -- truck repair shops are much more welcoming of skoolies than conventional RVs, for a number of reasons.

That being said -- Many here will tell you that the right bus takes a bit of searching and time -- don't settle on the first one that looks nice and runs good. I'll give you a run-down of what I've observed in my time here (Round two - my previous account was deleted at well over 3000 posts) and my own real-world observations and experiences.

Engines: Caterpillar 3208, Navistar DT466, DT360, T444 / T444E, Cummins 5.9 / 8.3, Ford 7.3 (essentially a T444 with a few differences, from what I gather from others, who can chime in if I've missed any gems), are all good engine choices to start with in the diesel department. Gas engines are not as common as they used to be, but most generally are not a problem. I would absolutely not buy any diesel newer than an '02, due to emissions issues, as they are somewhat expensive to fix when they decide they need attention. '02-'04s may not be AS bad, but '04+ can be a real pain (and expensive) when they need attention (and they will).

For diesels, basic emissions began around '98 with Exhaust Gas Recirculation systems, and they were headache enough.

Then Diesel Particulate Filters (diesel version of a catalytic converter) showed up around '02-'04, and they made things even more interesting... Don't take my word for it -- Google "Diesel Particulate Filter Fires" and click "Images" -- or better yet, if you know someone with 18-wheeler experience, ask them how many trucks they've seen spontaneously combust and burn to the ground because of a DPF malfunction.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid arrived somewhere between '08 for some models, and that system is the devil's spawn, especially as it is used in conjunction with the previous two. These are the primary reasons I wouldn't buy anything newer than about an '02. Albeit, the MaxxForce engines are really the problem children... The others haven't been as bad... apart from... *drum roll please*....

The '03+ 6.0 PowerStroke diesel -- avoid these like the plague, you do NOT want one. The pre-'03 7.3 is a much better engine. The Caterpillar 3126 and C-7 have been known to have head gasket issues, though I'm not sure how common those issues are.

The 6.6L Ford / New Holland diesel is a good engine in its own right, but relatively gutless, and being a tractor engine in actuality, will prove difficult to find parts for if necessary. These are made in Brazil, hence they are known as the "Brazilian" diesel.

Transmissions: Manuals are best, but getting harder to find. Automatics: Most candidates you find will have one of these: Allison AT545, MT643, MD6030. The AT545 is very basic, and somewhat weak. Not a TERRIBLE transmission under normal use, but most need major attention when they are retired. The MT643 is a good bit better, and well, the MD6030 is a gem if you can find one. Some auto transmissions will have a bit of an Easter egg in the form of an extra gear that can be unlocked if it's not already set up -- just have to know the right person with the right equipment to do it. I'm thinking this applies to both the MT643 and the MD6030, but lack of sleep is clouding my mind at the moment -- I'm sure someone will chime in on this.

Smaller buses that are based on vans will not have these, they will have whatever normally comes in the van chassis they are based on, 4L80E / 4L85E for GM, Fords I believe used the 4R70W. None are really that bad, but neither one is bulletproof, either. A note about these smaller buses -- Depending on their age -- the diesels will either be 6.2 / 6.5L Detroit diesels or 6.6L Duramax for GM, and all of them have their own nuances. Earlier 6.2s had head gasket and block issues, the 6.6L is known for fuel problems, particularly the injectors on the LB7s. The Fords are okay up to '02 -- the last year for the 7.3L. The 6.0L is a bus-sized headache you do not want - problems galore, as I stated previously. Unfortunately, a few of the bigger buses since '03 have gotten these too.

Brakes: Air or hydraulic? Tough question, and depends on some of the following scenarios... But if your plans include mountains or a lot of hills, I would opt for air. Though the inexperienced should not attempt servicing them, they're not as complicated as most think, and hydraulic brakes can fade quickly with mountains or lots of hills, a very dangerous situation giving a point towards air brakes.

Otherwise, hydraulic will be fine, but I would avoid late-model Fords with hydraulic brakes -- the system those use is highly expensive to repair and maintain, and most shops won't even touch them -- that's assuming you can find parts without selling your first-born to buy them. This generally applies only to larger buses on chassis rated 2-ton or better (F650+), the van-based minibuses did not offer air brakes and from a mechanical standpoint are largely no different than a standard cargo van of the same body line.

Lucas-Girling is the name of the manufacturer of this system. Some NaviStars (Internationals) with hydraulic may or may not have this system as well, I believe it went the way of the do-do around 1997-1999. More or less, some crackpot engineer tried to merge operation characteristics of air brakes into a hydraulic system -- and when it worked as intended, it was good. But when it failed --- OH BOY. If the parking brake is a little metal box with a plastic toggle switch or anything similar, RUN. I had to junk an otherwise perfectly good 64-passenger Blue Bird on Ford chassis with a strong 429 and manual trans because of that system.

All this aside, If you want a bigger bus... Your body choices include conventional (dog-nose), and flat nose. Flat-nose are a bit easier to maneuver in most cases, but come in two flavors -- front engine and rear engine (also called RE or pushers). Front-engine buses will tend to be a bit hot and noisy to drive, especially on the highway. Pushers are quieter and cooler in the front when driving, and will generally have better drive traction in bad weather, but have their own special concerns with cooling at times, particularly with hills or mountains.

Consider carefully what your planned use is once your conversion is finished. Will you be traveling cross-country? Back roads? Mountains? All of these merit consideration. If you're simply going to park it on a lot and live in it, most anything will do -- but otherwise, you have to consider this to choose an optimum setup... Major mechanical changes such as rear differential gears and transmission upgrades are costly and time consuming, which take away from your enjoyment.

Occasional jaunts with no highway cruising, chances are a DT360, 7.3, T444/E, or 5.9 Cummins with an AT545 will be just fine as long as you're okay with 55-60 mph cruising -- standard axle gears in the 4.56-5.29 range will do just fine for this.

If you're planning highway cruising, you'll really want the MT643 at the minimum -- the 6030 is much better, and you'll want an axle gear more in the 4.11-4.56 range, I'd say.

If your adventures are meant to include mountains, you'll want the Caterpillar 3208 turbo, DT466, 8.3 Cummins, 7.3 Ford, the MD6030, and axle gears in the 4.56-4.88 range.

Just my $0.02 here, I'm sure others may voice agreement or dissent. But that is what I would look for, and I would pass on this seeming gem you have found -- based on my experience and observations, I think you're setting yourself up for a headache, one of many to come. I think most here will agree when taking into account my stated experience and observations.

In my experience, Freightliners with Detroit power were the most reliable. Personally, in my dream world, skoolies would have been getting Detroit's DD5 and DD8 as engine options the moment they were available in medium duty trucks, and 5 /6 speed manuals or a slightly different version of Detroit's DT12 automatic. Alas, the bus builders are only now starting to use Detroit power, and as far as I know, the MD6030 is still the best automatic you can get in a skoolie.

Remember, all I've said here is purely in the interest of increasing your enjoyment of your purchase, and the finished product, as well as, above all, safety. Remember, a school bus as it was built was and still is a commercial vehicle, even once it's been gutted and registered as a motorhome -- it is simply exempt from CDL requirements. Gutting it and making it into an RV does not change the fact that it weighs 12,000 lbs empty and has the mechanicals of a basic commercial truck. It only means you no longer need a CDL to drive it because it is no longer considered commercial use.

And be prepared to repair / replace brake linings and/or tires -- many buses being retired are on the verge of needing service in this area, which is oft-overlooked by folks new to the experience. Steer tires will likely be about $200-250 each, drive tires about the same. Brakes on most trucks are about $2000 per axle, depending on the system and the shop. Sometimes you get lucky and the bus had these serviced / replaced not long before it was retired.

I'm sure there are members here that are more than willing to help you find a suitable candidate. Most of us long-timers here know good sources for finding good buses. And I wouldn't buy buses from the northern part of the country unless you're willing to contend with a lot of rust -- a far more serious problem than you might think. Just ask around the site about that one. Lots of these things hide rust in places you won't notice it until you've already bought it.

One other thing, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FLORIDA CHURCH BUS. They burned a former member here BADLY, a story I am very familiar with, as they told other potential buyers a great many untruths about the transaction and their response to the problems that ensued. Ask questions here about ANY 'dealer' you're thinking of buying from. 99% of the buses you find will carry a 'tail light' warranty, meaning the warranty expires when they lose sight of your tail lights as you're driving away.

That being said, welcome to the skoolie family, and I hope your journey is a safe and enjoyable one. Lots of good folks here with a lot of helpful advice, some are even willing to help find the right bus. ABOVE ALL -- NEVER BUY SIGHT UNSEEN, INSPECT IN PERSON IF POSSIBLE, OR AT LEAST HAVE SOMEONE EXPERIENCED TO INSPECT IT FOR YOU. I think some members here might not mind checking one out for you if it is somewhat local to them -- an experienced truck or bus mechanic would be better, however.

One other thing, most auctions and dealers will not / cannot allow you to drive your new purchase home without removing seats / stop sign arm, 'SCHOOL BUS" and municipality lettering if not already done. Some states even require that it be repainted something other than the school bus yellow. Another thing that is a snag is that most can not allow it to be driven off their lot without a CDL, either. I am one of a few members here who holds a CDL, albeit I have a Class A with only air brake endorsements -- small van-based buses require a Class C minimum, larger ones a Class B with P endorsement for transport until it is registered and titled as a motorhome, if not already done.

I have nothing better to do at the moment, so I may be able to help with this. Seeing as a Class A qualifies me for trailer trucks weighing up to 80,000 lbs loaded, as long as the bus is otherwise road legal, I don't think DOT will bother me if I can prove I am simply relocating it for the owner. If you cover my travel, fuel and motel rooms -- and something for my time, of course. Still cheaper than loading it on a low-boy or towing. Let me know if I can be of service.

But sorry, I have to say, no, no, a thousand times, no, for the bus you are discussing here. I see far more headaches than it is worth, enough to ruin the experience for you.

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Old 04-16-2020, 06:05 AM   #29
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Another issue with a hybrid bus is how old are the batteries, what life do they have left, and will the bus be drivable with dead batteries. The batteries probably cost in excess of 10,000 dollars to replace so batteries are very important to look at
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON View Post
Okay, grab yourself some soda and nachos --- This became a bit longer than I planned, but this is coming from someone with a little bit of experience with the larger MaxxForce engines (11 - 13L-range), having driven 18-wheelers over-the-road -- as well as well-networked with a few people who have owned / worked on / junked / got rid of the typical hybrid vehicles (Prius / Camry / Accord), etc.

I certainly don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I personally would not touch this thing with a 40-foot pole, and these are my reasons.

1) NaviStar's MaxxForce engines have the worst reliability rating in the trucking industry. I drove seven different ProStars equipped with these abominations in seven months -- every one of them stayed in the shop. Mostly emissions and electrical issues. Lots more zeroes involved than when a car or minivan requires attention.

2) When the heavy wrecker ($100 hookup and $10 / mi) arrived to tow one of these in, the operator told me that Volvos and ProStars were 85% of their business, mostly the Internationals because of the MaxxForce's crappy emissions system. The eighth one I drove was a good truck, but at one year old with 35k on it, it had better be, right? Wrong. That one's fuel lines had been incorrectly sequenced at the factory and caused quite a few problems before I figured out what was going on.

3) I have seen many a hybrid vehicle junked because of higher repair costs, or whisked off to auction to be sold overseas with malfunction lights covered in electrical tape because they would not go out, even after a complete battery pack replacement and full diagnostic that showed no codes. Remember, a bus is essentially a commercial truck, so anything that goes wrong with them, you can generally add at least one to two zeroes to the repair bill in comparison to an everyday vehicle -- even more so with a hybrid, as they are specialized and not common.

4) Which brings me to my next point -- Many hybrid owners are locked into dealers because not just anyone can work on the hybrid unit and battery packs. Last I checked, standard commercial truck dealer labor was clocking in at around $130-$180 PER HOUR. And not just any dealer tech will be able to work on a hybrid, either, a tech certified in the system will be required, which you won't necessarily find just anywhere.

And if the dealer is backlogged -- well, I hope you have an emergency fund for motel rooms, because sometimes I saw a week or two in a hotel waiting for some jobs to be done. For example, I spent 12 days in Shreveport LA the week before/of Harvey's arrival, and I had to go down to Campti, driving through six to nine inches of water on back roads to pick up a load to Mississippi, running like my life depended on it, because the storm was moving in fast from Corpus Christi. But I digress. Point being, downtime can be BAD juju under the wrong circumstances.

5) Bio-diesel has been known to cause problems with some engines, particularly in certain climates. I was under strict orders at every carrier I drove for to NEVER fuel with bio-diesel. I think it had something to do with clogging filters and causing other fuel system problems. It really doesn't burn any cleaner than ULSD anyway, once you account for DPF / DEF systems, which are a PITA of their own category -- it is simply the selling point of being renewable, 'green' fuel. The commercials for biodiesel specifically state a lot of it is made from algae. Ask any marine-diesel boat owner about algae in their fuel and what a problem it is.

Side note here -- You would be well-advised to steer clear of CNG and LPG-powered models as well. Reason being that neither fuel source is readily available just anywhere, the tanks must be certified and checked meticulously every so often, they are extremely costly to replace, and make the vehicle a veritable bomb -- and that's all assuming it skates under the 119-gallon HazMat threshold. I'm not sure an LPG/CNG vehicle's onboard fuel tanks are exempt from this. Unless you know someone who can easily convert the vehicle to diesel or gas, whichever applies, I would pass on these as well. Power and fuel range are terrible. The only benefit is that the fuel burns clean, not enough to outweigh the current caveats.

IF you find a gas model that is Flex-Fuel, keep in mind that these engines CAN run on E85... But some of these have been known to get stuck in one mode or another when switching fuel mixtures, which usually mean a trip to the dealer.

But if they are NOT Flex-Fuel...do not run anything above E15 in '07+ models, and do not run anything above E10 in anything older than an '06. These engines are not designed for higher concentrations of ethanol and it WILL damage them.

As I stated previously, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but think long and hard about whether you want a $1300 tow bill or an $8000 repair bill that will completely outweigh any fuel you save -- which I've observed has been the case for many conventional hybrid owners. Anyone here can tell you that repairs on conventional diesel-powered models are expensive enough. I think the potential issues you will run into with such a beast will not only ruin you financially, they will completely sour you on the skoolie experience, which can be quite awesome -- but choose wisely. One nice thing about a skoolie -- as long as it's converted well and the conversion does not hinder serviceability -- truck repair shops are much more welcoming of skoolies than conventional RVs, for a number of reasons.

That being said -- Many here will tell you that the right bus takes a bit of searching and time -- don't settle on the first one that looks nice and runs good. I'll give you a run-down of what I've observed in my time here (Round two - my previous account was deleted at well over 3000 posts) and my own real-world observations and experiences.

Engines: Caterpillar 3208, Navistar DT466, DT360, T444 / T444E, Cummins 5.9 / 8.3, Ford 7.3 (essentially a T444 with a few differences, from what I gather from others, who can chime in if I've missed any gems), are all good engine choices to start with in the diesel department. Gas engines are not as common as they used to be, but most generally are not a problem. I would absolutely not buy any diesel newer than an '02, due to emissions issues, as they are somewhat expensive to fix when they decide they need attention. '02-'04s may not be AS bad, but '04+ can be a real pain (and expensive) when they need attention (and they will).

For diesels, basic emissions began around '98 with Exhaust Gas Recirculation systems, and they were headache enough.

Then Diesel Particulate Filters (diesel version of a catalytic converter) showed up around '02-'04, and they made things even more interesting... Don't take my word for it -- Google "Diesel Particulate Filter Fires" and click "Images" -- or better yet, if you know someone with 18-wheeler experience, ask them how many trucks they've seen spontaneously combust and burn to the ground because of a DPF malfunction.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid arrived somewhere between '08 for some models, and that system is the devil's spawn, especially as it is used in conjunction with the previous two. These are the primary reasons I wouldn't buy anything newer than about an '02. Albeit, the MaxxForce engines are really the problem children... The others haven't been as bad... apart from... *drum roll please*....

The '03+ 6.0 PowerStroke diesel -- avoid these like the plague, you do NOT want one. The pre-'03 7.3 is a much better engine. The Caterpillar 3126 and C-7 have been known to have head gasket issues, though I'm not sure how common those issues are.

The 6.6L Ford / New Holland diesel is a good engine in its own right, but relatively gutless, and being a tractor engine in actuality, will prove difficult to find parts for if necessary. These are made in Brazil, hence they are known as the "Brazilian" diesel.

Transmissions: Manuals are best, but getting harder to find. Automatics: Most candidates you find will have one of these: Allison AT545, MT643, MD6030. The AT545 is very basic, and somewhat weak. Not a TERRIBLE transmission under normal use, but most need major attention when they are retired. The MT643 is a good bit better, and well, the MD6030 is a gem if you can find one. Some auto transmissions will have a bit of an Easter egg in the form of an extra gear that can be unlocked if it's not already set up -- just have to know the right person with the right equipment to do it. I'm thinking this applies to both the MT643 and the MD6030, but lack of sleep is clouding my mind at the moment -- I'm sure someone will chime in on this.

Smaller buses that are based on vans will not have these, they will have whatever normally comes in the van chassis they are based on, 4L80E / 4L85E for GM, Fords I believe used the 4R70W. None are really that bad, but neither one is bulletproof, either. A note about these smaller buses -- Depending on their age -- the diesels will either be 6.2 / 6.5L Detroit diesels or 6.6L Duramax for GM, and all of them have their own nuances. Earlier 6.2s had head gasket and block issues, the 6.6L is known for fuel problems, particularly the injectors on the LB7s. The Fords are okay up to '02 -- the last year for the 7.3L. The 6.0L is a bus-sized headache you do not want - problems galore, as I stated previously. Unfortunately, a few of the bigger buses since '03 have gotten these too.

Brakes: Air or hydraulic? Tough question, and depends on some of the following scenarios... But if your plans include mountains or a lot of hills, I would opt for air. Though the inexperienced should not attempt servicing them, they're not as complicated as most think, and hydraulic brakes can fade quickly with mountains or lots of hills, a very dangerous situation giving a point towards air brakes.

Otherwise, hydraulic will be fine, but I would avoid late-model Fords with hydraulic brakes -- the system those use is highly expensive to repair and maintain, and most shops won't even touch them -- that's assuming you can find parts without selling your first-born to buy them. This generally applies only to larger buses on chassis rated 2-ton or better (F650+), the van-based minibuses did not offer air brakes and from a mechanical standpoint are largely no different than a standard cargo van of the same body line.

Lucas-Girling is the name of the manufacturer of this system. Some NaviStars (Internationals) with hydraulic may or may not have this system as well, I believe it went the way of the do-do around 1997-1999. More or less, some crackpot engineer tried to merge operation characteristics of air brakes into a hydraulic system -- and when it worked as intended, it was good. But when it failed --- OH BOY. If the parking brake is a little metal box with a plastic toggle switch or anything similar, RUN. I had to junk an otherwise perfectly good 64-passenger Blue Bird on Ford chassis with a strong 429 and manual trans because of that system.

All this aside, If you want a bigger bus... Your body choices include conventional (dog-nose), and flat nose. Flat-nose are a bit easier to maneuver in most cases, but come in two flavors -- front engine and rear engine (also called RE or pushers). Front-engine buses will tend to be a bit hot and noisy to drive, especially on the highway. Pushers are quieter and cooler in the front when driving, and will generally have better drive traction in bad weather, but have their own special concerns with cooling at times, particularly with hills or mountains.

Consider carefully what your planned use is once your conversion is finished. Will you be traveling cross-country? Back roads? Mountains? All of these merit consideration. If you're simply going to park it on a lot and live in it, most anything will do -- but otherwise, you have to consider this to choose an optimum setup... Major mechanical changes such as rear differential gears and transmission upgrades are costly and time consuming, which take away from your enjoyment.

Occasional jaunts with no highway cruising, chances are a DT360, 7.3, T444/E, or 5.9 Cummins with an AT545 will be just fine as long as you're okay with 55-60 mph cruising -- standard axle gears in the 4.56-5.29 range will do just fine for this.

If you're planning highway cruising, you'll really want the MT643 at the minimum -- the 6030 is much better, and you'll want an axle gear more in the 4.11-4.56 range, I'd say.

If your adventures are meant to include mountains, you'll want the Caterpillar 3208 turbo, DT466, 8.3 Cummins, 7.3 Ford, the MD6030, and axle gears in the 4.56-4.88 range.

Just my $0.02 here, I'm sure others may voice agreement or dissent. But that is what I would look for, and I would pass on this seeming gem you have found -- based on my experience and observations, I think you're setting yourself up for a headache, one of many to come. I think most here will agree when taking into account my stated experience and observations.

In my experience, Freightliners with Detroit power were the most reliable. Personally, in my dream world, skoolies would have been getting Detroit's DD5 and DD8 as engine options the moment they were available in medium duty trucks, and 5 /6 speed manuals or a slightly different version of Detroit's DT12 automatic. Alas, the bus builders are only now starting to use Detroit power, and as far as I know, the MD6030 is still the best automatic you can get in a skoolie.

Remember, all I've said here is purely in the interest of increasing your enjoyment of your purchase, and the finished product, as well as, above all, safety. Remember, a school bus as it was built was and still is a commercial vehicle, even once it's been gutted and registered as a motorhome -- it is simply exempt from CDL requirements. Gutting it and making it into an RV does not change the fact that it weighs 12,000 lbs empty and has the mechanicals of a basic commercial truck. It only means you no longer need a CDL to drive it because it is no longer considered commercial use.

And be prepared to repair / replace brake linings and/or tires -- many buses being retired are on the verge of needing service in this area, which is oft-overlooked by folks new to the experience. Steer tires will likely be about $200-250 each, drive tires about the same. Brakes on most trucks are about $2000 per axle, depending on the system and the shop. Sometimes you get lucky and the bus had these serviced / replaced not long before it was retired.

I'm sure there are members here that are more than willing to help you find a suitable candidate. Most of us long-timers here know good sources for finding good buses. And I wouldn't buy buses from the northern part of the country unless you're willing to contend with a lot of rust -- a far more serious problem than you might think. Just ask around the site about that one. Lots of these things hide rust in places you won't notice it until you've already bought it.

One other thing, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT FLORIDA CHURCH BUS. They burned a former member here BADLY, a story I am very familiar with, as they told other potential buyers a great many untruths about the transaction and their response to the problems that ensued. Ask questions here about ANY 'dealer' you're thinking of buying from. 99% of the buses you find will carry a 'tail light' warranty, meaning the warranty expires when they lose sight of your tail lights as you're driving away.

That being said, welcome to the skoolie family, and I hope your journey is a safe and enjoyable one. Lots of good folks here with a lot of helpful advice, some are even willing to help find the right bus. ABOVE ALL -- NEVER BUY SIGHT UNSEEN, INSPECT IN PERSON IF POSSIBLE, OR AT LEAST HAVE SOMEONE EXPERIENCED TO INSPECT IT FOR YOU. I think some members here might not mind checking one out for you if it is somewhat local to them -- an experienced truck or bus mechanic would be better, however.

One other thing, most auctions and dealers will not / cannot allow you to drive your new purchase home without removing seats / stop sign arm, 'SCHOOL BUS" and municipality lettering if not already done. Some states even require that it be repainted something other than the school bus yellow. Another thing that is a snag is that most can not allow it to be driven off their lot without a CDL, either. I am one of a few members here who holds a CDL, albeit I have a Class A with only air brake endorsements -- small van-based buses require a Class C minimum, larger ones a Class B with P endorsement for transport until it is registered and titled as a motorhome, if not already done.

I have nothing better to do at the moment, so I may be able to help with this. Seeing as a Class A qualifies me for trailer trucks weighing up to 80,000 lbs loaded, as long as the bus is otherwise road legal, I don't think DOT will bother me if I can prove I am simply relocating it for the owner. If you cover my travel, fuel and motel rooms -- and something for my time, of course. Still cheaper than loading it on a low-boy or towing. Let me know if I can be of service.

But sorry, I have to say, no, no, a thousand times, no, for the bus you are discussing here. I see far more headaches than it is worth, enough to ruin the experience for you.

Attachment 43352
Egr's are usually found in 2004 and up.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:42 AM   #31
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Egr's are usually found in 2004 and up.
Yes, but my understanding is that some 5.9 Cummins had them as early as '98... Not sure if application or 12V / 24V makes a difference in that department, as I don't remember what year the 24V was available. I've also read the 24V is known for injection issues, the pump if memory serves. My experience is largely with heavier Class 8 trucks, and while officially Detroit did not announce EGR until the '03 model year, I have seen truck owners with models in the '98-'02 range that discussed EGR deletes. Perhaps their truck had been swapped with a later EGR engine out of necessity and availability? *shrugs* I just wanted to make sure that a new potential owner has as much info as possible, even if I might be a bit cloudy on a detail or two...
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:47 AM   #32
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Yes, but my understand is that some 5.9 Cummins had them as early as '98... Not sure if application or 12V / 24V makes a difference in that department, as I don't remember what year the 24V was available. I've also read the 24V is known for injection issues, the pump if memory serves.
The 2003 Kubla and I sold didn't have an egr. 24v.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:57 AM   #33
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The 2003 Kubla and I sold didn't have an egr. 24v.
Cool.
Must be a hit-or-miss application thing then? I could swear I remember reading or hearing something about 1998 model year in regard to diesel emissions.
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:23 AM   #34
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Cool.
Must be a hit-or-miss application thing then? I could swear I remember reading or hearing something about 1998 model year in regard to diesel emissions.
I read an article a few months back (can't find it right now) about the process for the emissions systems that were officially required from 2004 onwards. The companies that manufactured diesel engines apparently switched their production over to the new engines throughout the 2003 calendar year, with some companies even getting a head start on this process in late 2002. So whether a particular 2003 or 2004 bus has the emissions controls systems or not might be a bit of a crapshoot.

All I know is that my 2003 doesn't have the stuff. And actually I don't know that at all, I've just always assumed it!
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:43 AM   #35
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I read an article a few months back (can't find it right now) about the process for the emissions systems that were officially required from 2004 onwards. The companies that manufactured diesel engines apparently switched their production over to the new engines throughout the 2003 calendar year, with some companies even getting a head start on this process in late 2002. So whether a particular 2003 or 2004 bus has the emissions controls systems or not might be a bit of a crapshoot.

All I know is that my 2003 doesn't have the stuff. And actually I don't know that at all, I've just always assumed it!
Considering my experience is largely with Class 8 trucks, and further considering that such trucks are required to run electronic logs, I'm wondering I'm not getting the ELD requirement (older trucks have no provision for hardwired ELDs) confused with the emissions requirement. I'm thinking 1998 and older model trucks were the cut-off point for the ELD requirement, perhaps BSF can confirm this -- I'd only been OTR about 4 years when respiratory issues forced me out of running solo.

However, I stand by my statement that most, if not all 02-03+ diesels had some form of emission controls, and that 04+ diesels are a monumental PITA, especially MaxxForce engines. Not only have I seen "M-F" engines (as they are commonly called, among other names -- truckers HATE these things) being emission deleted to keep them running, I have even seen an older PornStar, er, ProStar (some '08-'10s had Cat engines -- C12/C15 or some emission-equipped junk of the like) that had been swapped to a 3406B Cat. Completely illegal -- but it got it down the road without seeing a repair shop.

Diesel emissions have become such a problem now for fleets that districts have begun ordering gassers again. I saw a damaged 2020 Blue Bird Vision on the block at CoPart that had apparently been totaled out en route before it was ever delivered. Sad. Brand-new bus with obvious frame and other structural damage past the axle. I was surprised to see it was a 6.8L V10 Ford gasser. So apparently the districts have wised up to this emissions BS and realized the downtime outweighs the fuel savings anymore. Thanks, Obama! *insert middle finger here*

And yes, I'm aware he was not in office in '02. But his administration made diesel emissions even more of a Charlie Foxtrot than it already was by increasing already unrealistic standards. Brand-new refrigerated trailers are being built with this crap (on a 2-4 cyl, of all things), and California soon will not allow any refrigerated loads in on trailers not so equipped. Already heard about a couple of these things going haywire and shutting down, causing the entire load to spoil. And they wonder why truckers don't like going to California... *middle finger* goes for California government, too -- not to get political, and no offense to residing members here, but their government leaders are completely nuts. This is why milk may soon be $8 a gallon there, and so on. I've even seen this DPF/DEF crap on agricultural tractors (I used to deliver smaller John Deere).

On the plus side, this trend may spurn new fleets of gassers, making skoolie ownership more fun and easier to find good buses in the years to come... But now we have to wait for those newer gassers to be retired -- See you in 10-20 years....

At least, that's the average age of the last gasser skoolies I remember seeing being retired. The county I attended school in was running what I call open-faced Chevrolet C60 and egg-crate grilled GMC buses with 366 gassers and granny-low 4-speeds well into the early 90s. Y'all know the ones I'm talking about...

Last bus I rode to school was one such bus -- I believe these were built from '70-'82? Coming on 20 years old and still going strong. One GMC version still sits at the county bus garage as a storage shed to this day, a bus I remember well because my mother drove this exact bus, it still has the number 11 on it, which is how I recognized it. Ah, simpler times of good buses a' plenty and simple mechanics.
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Old 04-16-2020, 09:28 AM   #36
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I read an article a few months back (can't find it right now) about the process for the emissions systems that were officially required from 2004 onwards. The companies that manufactured diesel engines apparently switched their production over to the new engines throughout the 2003 calendar year, with some companies even getting a head start on this process in late 2002. So whether a particular 2003 or 2004 bus has the emissions controls systems or not might be a bit of a crapshoot.

All I know is that my 2003 doesn't have the stuff. And actually I don't know that at all, I've just always assumed it!
Look at the exhaust/turbo side of your engine and compare-

This is an egr model^ the egr cooler is atop the exhaust manifold.
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Old 04-16-2020, 09:51 AM   #37
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I think it's also important to remember that certain States which shall remain unnamed (California) were imposing stricter guidelines with earlier deadlines than the federal government so you could have a model year bus built with emissions equipment because it was heading for a stricter state and the next one on the assembly line not have the emissions equipment because it was destined for a lax state. There was a window of time in which the engine manufacturers were in transition and could offer either/or.
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Old 04-16-2020, 10:52 AM   #38
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There's some great advice in this thread, minus my earlier post. It looks like I was actually talking about WVO, not biodiesel. However, ben_marko's and Cheese_Wagon's posts only reaffirm my opinion about the original post: I would pass on this bus, and probably most alternative fuel busses, simply because I am NOT AN EXPERT with skoolies or engines or mechanics and want to keep things simple and convenient.



I will add this, however: my mechanic (yes, I bring it in to the shop for mx because--and I cannot emphasize this enough--I AM NOT AN EXPERT!) always has another skoolie in the shop, and he tells me I lucked out with my 7.3L Powerstroke because the other skoolie had the 6.0 PS, and he said he wouldn't ever buy a vehicle with that engine.
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:36 PM   #39
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Hi everyone! Lost power for a few days here in Maine and just got back in the loop- wow! So, off the bat I got the message that I should not and will not get the hybrid bus. I have learned so much from this (at times, heated) thread! I thank you all. CheeseWagon's final big post is one I will save as we search. We feel at this point we want a 40 ft flat nose that we will raise the roof on and make off-grid and live in full time (me, husband, 2 year old daughter). We sell books online so we need space for those and us. We intend to travel around, yet stay put for awhile in isolated places, so we aren't going to be driving constantly yet over time will certainly be logging miles.
I am searching a lot, every day. I have narrowed into the government auctions as the most economical if we can get them inspected and know what's happening with them. Although, it also seems a lot of partially started conversions are popping up and maybe it would be nice to have a head start as time is a factor.
The the fact is, we live in Maine. There is nowhere anywhere near here with rust-free busses, so it seems we are inevitably going to have to pay to have a bus hauled here, and therefore, we shouldn't limit our search and just find the best bus out there and bite the bullet on whatever it takes to get it here.
SOO, ANY busses that fit the bill, please send our way. Your knowledge, as individuals and collectively, is greater than ours. We are pretty ready to get the bus here and get started but the bus we choose is the ground we lay all our hard work on and want to make sure it is right.

THANK YOU EVERYONE!
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:48 PM   #40
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I think it's also important to remember that certain States which shall remain unnamed (California) were imposing stricter guidelines with earlier deadlines than the federal government so you could have a model year bus built with emissions equipment because it was heading for a stricter state and the next one on the assembly line not have the emissions equipment because it was destined for a lax state. There was a window of time in which the engine manufacturers were in transition and could offer either/or.
Ah, yes... That might explain my thinking that '98 models had EGR. Good chance those were CARB-spec CA models. Hadn't thought about that, but it would make sense. I'm sure the Detroit GM pickups/vans/minibuses, etc., Cummins Dodge Rams and Ford 7.3s would have been the first diesels to get EGR in CA, and that may well have started earlier than in other states. I've also seen a lot of to-do about CA scrambling to get rid of all its older non-emission models, only selling online to out-of-state buyers to make sure they get rid of them for good.

So this could possibly be a good source of good, reliable rust-free buses for the OP. *hint-hint* My thinking is, if ya gotta settle for emissions equipment, keep it simple as possible and buy EGR-equipped, without DPF / DEF if you can. And keep in mind, OP, as you search, army buses, activity buses and prison buses are pretty much identical and may already have the mechanical package you need with low miles and low hours. One recent newcomer actually bought a good bus that had been set up to haul firefighters either to training or perhaps locations that a typical fire truck could not carry enough personnel. Other alternatives you might consider are buses that have been fitted out as bookmobiles, blood donation centers, etc. Blue Bird flat-noses were quite popular for this sort of thing.

None of these get used much, hence the low miles / low hours potential. But prison buses will require a little more work to gut and prepare for conversion, they typically have a bit more hardware to keep inmates in and restrained. An added bonus to these is they do not have the school bus yellow paint, stop sign arm, or four amber / reds to change / remove, though some like to swap those for clear lenses (reverse light lenses often interchange) for ambient exterior lighting when parked. I've even seen a mobile recording mini skoolie fitted with marine speakers in their place.

And I highly recommend doing oil / coolant / trans fluid analysis, prior to purchase if at all possible. They are a simple test that takes a little while to get back, but it speaks volumes about the health of the engine / trans, and helps to address looming issues before they become a disaster.

Coolant is known to cross-flow in radiators and trans coolers supplemented with engine coolant, and can fry auto trans clutches. It is also known to get into engine oil when problems such as head gaskets, cylinder heads or EGR coolers are leaking (a major concern with the 6.0h-no). Coolant contamination of engine oil or trans can cause major failure in the engine or trans, but if caught and corrected early enough, won't be a problem, barring such issues as cracked cylinder heads or engine block. This is why fluid analysis is an indispensable tool.

Also, depending on your primary location of usage - I can't stress this enough -- INSULATION, INSULATION, INSULATION. I think many members here have opted for spray-in foam once the interior wall skins were removed and the floor was prepped and ready. I used R2 styrofoam in the Ford I owned, but styrofoam is likely to create condensation and moisture retention problems, which will invite rust.

Another tip -- I found that a typical-sized window shaker fit nicely in an open window hole (window removed of course -- it's just a few screws on most) with a piece of plywood cut to fit the gap. Different coachwork (Blue Bird, Thomas, Carpenter, Ward) will require different improvisation to make this work. Certain Carpenters, by the way, were known to have defective welds / rivets if produced at a certain plant (Indiana if I remember correctly), and something to inspect a Carpenter-bodied bus for during demo. Easy fix, just have to address it while you're gutting it. Anyway, this setup cooled mine quite nicely in the time I was mounting security equipment in it, and served to keep the equipment cool without taking up too much space inside. A good way you can cool the interior while you're doing the demo and upfitting.
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