Solar power

[jazty]

Originally Posted by Zephod_beeblebrox2

With an ac system, live and neutral both have power going through them. They're alternately positive and negative.

Unfortunately it's more complex than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral

In a closed circuit there is electricity flowing through neutral. From my limited understanding, in an open circuit with a properly wired system there should be basically no electricity flowing through it (maybe a couple volts through induction). Somewhere along its run it is bonded to ground.

Reverse polarity of an AC system is still a Very Bad Thing™

[Zephod_beeblebrox2]

I'm of the opinion that the existing fuse panels aren't what I need I think in light of the revelation (which we should have expected) that wiring at camp sites can be cock-eyed, it makes sense to be prepared. Perhaps double up on fuses - one for each wire. We should also remember that ground might not necessarily be grounded

[nat_ster]

Sorry I didn't realize you were talking about using glass fuses for 120 volt.

I thought you were talking about 12 volt stuff.

No one uses glass fuses for 120 volt either. They won't even come close to passing code.

For 120 volt, a modern breaker panel is the only way to go.

Nat

[jazty]

Originally Posted by Zephod_beeblebrox2

Perhaps double up on fuses - one for each wire. We should also remember that ground might not necessarily be grounded

That won't protect you against any of the situations discussed in the past couple threads. Breakers can be coupled (2-pole, 3-pole). Fuses cannot. If you were to fuse hot and neutral separately you will find that the chances of both blowing simultaneously will be the exception - not the norm - leaving the other potentially live wires still connected to your outlets. Heck, you might even end up in a situation where the neutral line fuse blows before the hot line fuse due to manufacturing irregularities. It's not something you want to bank on.

I'd seriously advise you to run your ideas by a qualified electrician before going ahead. You risk not only hurting/killing yourself, but others around you. OR go with UL approved devices, boxes, breakers (or fuses if you must, though there is no good reason to do so).

[Zephod_beeblebrox2]

Originally Posted by nat_ster

Sorry I didn't realize you were talking about using glass fuses for 120 volt.

I thought you were talking about 12 volt stuff.

No one uses glass fuses for 120 volt either. They won't even come close to passing code.

For 120 volt, a modern breaker panel is the only way to go.

Nat

Odd. We have breakers in Britain but every appliance has its own glass fuse in the plug and the plug goes in a switched socket. No gfi use at all. Electricity save for lighting is banned in bathroom and toilets. The only light switches permitted are pull switches with nylon cords.

And our voltage - 240

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by jazty

I'd seriously advise you to run your ideas by a qualified electrician before going ahead. You risk not only hurting/killing yourself, but others around you. OR go with UL approved devices, boxes, breakers (or fuses if you must, though there is no good reason to do so).

You will also be potentially harming others at the camp grounds with your scarey wiring.

IMO

I'm all for a individual being a DIY type. However, you have a long long way to go before you should touch a single wire.

Best start reading this thread, and many many more.
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f10/ho...ms-ac-448.html

Nat

[jazty]

Originally Posted by Zephod_beeblebrox2

Odd. We have breakers in Britain but every appliance has its own glass fuse in the plug and the plug goes in a switched socket.

Lots of devices in North America still use glass fuses internally. They only blow when something goes seriously wrong, usually meaning the device is damaged. Breakers provide over-current protection for the whole circuit. Without breakers you could plug in 500 self-fused devices and melt the circuit wires without blowing a single fuse.

Originally Posted by Zephod_beeblebrox2

No gfi use at all.

As I understand it, the equivalent to a GFI in the UK is a Residual Current Device (RCD). They typically live in the electrical panel, unlike a North American GFI which is typically an integrated outlet. RCDs are sometimes integrated into a breaker/RCD combo which is then called an RCBO (Residual-current Circuit Breaker with Overcurrent protection).

I'm just learning this UK stuff from Wikipedia and google, btw.. I'm no universal electrician

[Tango]

Me...I plan on hiring an electrical consultant to help layout my system.

The only thing I know for certain about things electrical...
is that you never, ever stick bobby pins into those little holes in the wall.

Learned THAT one the hard way at an early age.

[onenationundergoat]

We generally boondock and use little power like you do, Zephod. So we went the simple route. We have one heavy duty extension cord going in each direction. The one the runs from the front of the bus connects to the inverter. That cord goes to the back of the bus and plugs into a power strip in the back room. In the middle of the bus the cord is cut and wired into the cord of another power strip. In the front room we have the same thing. We run laptops, chargers, a record player, a light, a deep freezer converted to a fridge, and occasionally will run a small lcd tv and dvd player on this setup. Generally not all at once. The inverter will cut itself off if the load is too high, and it has a marine fuse on the red wire as well.

The cord running from the other direction is set up the same but hooks up to the generator. This is for running a toaster oven, rice cooker, crock pot, vacuum cleaner, or whatever else draws a lot of power and would be used when the generator is running. (Not all at once.) The window AC and washer/dryer combo unit will be plugged up separately to the generator. Make sure not to plug too much in at once so you don't overheat the cord, and it works fine. This extension cord also has 25 feet left over to run out of the bus in plug into any regular 120v outlet. No high Amp stuff to mess with. Even the dryer runs off 115v.

[texasrednek]

So I hate read through this entire thread, and noticed that lithium ion batteries were mentioned. I read an article the other day about the new tesla batteries they are lithium ion. So I was considering using them in my (much distant) future solar system on the schoolie I will eventually buy hopefully at the end of the year. I will be using it recreationaly. For possibly up to a week at a time. Did I understand correctly that lithium ion Batts need regular (daily) discharge for the life of a battery to maintain viability making them a poor choice for my application? I'm a machinist so spacial math is second nature to me making it exceedingly frustrating that I'm having trouble with electrical math lol. I can't figure out how large system I need so I'm just going to make a huge battery bank and solar array to hedge my bet. I understand wiring (mostly) but this capacity, rate of discharge, system efficiency business is tough for me to get strait in my head. I'm going to use rv appliances except the ac witch I think I'm going to try using a mini split duct
Less AC because I'm seeing an 8/10 amp startup surge from what I have read and between that and the washer dryer combo should be the most power intensive components, since I plan on using propane alternatives as much as possible. Sorry to be long winded but I finally found a group I can ask questions to that speak like normal people!

[texasrednek]

Also sorry for that being a little tough to read, I'm on my tablet and for some reason proof reading and editing seems almost impossible I can't scroll through with out highlighting the whole post.....new to the tap talk ap

[nat_ster]

Li-on battery's don't care if they sit for a year, or get discharged everyday.

They are the best of the best for everything in every way.

Only downside is cost, and that is getting better everyday.

Nat

[Zephod_beeblebrox2]

I just don't like lion batteries. The idea of lithium and electricity together gives me the willies.

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by Zephod_beeblebrox2

I just don't like lion batteries. The idea of lithium and electricity together gives me the willies.

Your loss.

I use Li-on battery's everyday. My hand tools, shaver, cell phone, flashlight, ect.

No way I would use any other battery chemistry.

No other battery chemistry is anywhere close to as safe as Li-on.

Nat

[texasrednek]

I agree with nat, they are in everything now a days. I know I have personally blown up lead acid batteries accidently....being young and not paying attention. So there are hazards with anything. Traditional Batts can vent and kill you in your sleep BTW when a batt vents it can explode. I'm sure li-ion have inherent hazards but can safely be discharged lower (from my limited understanding) wich is why I started looking at them for solar system. I will obviously have a charge controller but it's one less thing to worry about should there be a failure.

[jazty]

If you use any battery powered digital device built within the past 10 years then you are using LiCoO2 Li-ion batteries. Laptops, phones, cameras... The dangerous kind of Li-ion battery, in fact. LiFePO4 is becoming increasingly popular for large-scale installations due to it being a far safer option than typical LiCoO2.

[bearbus]

w00t now we can armor our buses AND go green

PowerArmor™ solar panels from IDG Europe are first to provide ballistic protection, with Dyneema® high strength fibers - 11 - 2014 - Information center - Media - DSM

[kwang_yi]

Originally Posted by nat_ster

Your loss.

I use Li-on battery's everyday. My hand tools, shaver, cell phone, flashlight, ect.

No way I would use any other battery chemistry.

No other battery chemistry is anywhere close to as safe as Li-on.

Nat

It's not the safest battery, I know because I burnt few lithium batteries while experimenting with charger that I designed using SOC algorithm developed by the biggest chipset manufacturer in the US. Actually, it was their engineering evaluation kit, not my charger. Simply put, this device allows chipset to communicate with external device such as PC, so that designer don't need xtalk device the read the memory, closely monitoring the parameters stored. Ideally, it's so fanatic, they claimed their chipset will predict stored energy within something like 90% accuracy, something every system designer are dying to have in their system, but it just burnt my battery in the end. I would love to have my battery system able to continually monitor battery's SOC without complication of adding new device. Charger Controller have no business telling the SOC, and it's completely flawed marketing scheme because batteries will be charged from multiple source, not just from solar panel.

Lithium is known to start mysterious fire, and due to high density of energy cell, it's very difficult to control flames once battery is on fire. It's fire is so intense, it burnt the solid metal desk and the black dust that penetrated my lab space for days if not for weeks, just unbelievable. Metal will not melt unless it's exposed to extreme high temperature, and the lithium chew my desk's metal surface like a pancake. If I recall my incident, it's like burning a highly explosive chemical like gun powder, you get the idea.

You cannot not compare 1AH lithium battery commonly used on portable devices to lithium battery with thousand times higher capacity in vehicle application.

When Boeing company had to ground all new 787 airplanes for month, taking heavy loses, I can understand why they were so scared to death by lithium battery incidents in Japan. If I understand it correctly, Boeing tried lithium pack for plane's auxiliary power system traditionally used by engaging APU generator, because it save fuel consumption by reducing planes's weight, same reason why bus converter are trying to achieve, no other valid reason to use solar power in a bus conversion, in my opinion. Of course, once in a while, people will try different thing without a reason other than bragging right. Hey, its your money you're wasting. I'm not in a position to criticize your choice but strongly recommend looking into solar system with no bias, use your own head to justify other than someone else telling you how cool it is to have a solar system. Realistically speaking, you're NOT saving our planet by reducing couple of gallons of fuel consumption. Solar manufacturing plant itself is known to create a lot more toxic air, if you want to be technical.

Back to lithium incident in Japan, they (FAA & Boeing) determined the cause of fire to be the impurities from manufacturing process, but then the vendor is known for high QA program, far exceeding that of Toyota plant. It's easy to blame on commonly accepted cause, been used for ages. I'm not so convinced that impurities will start a fire, knowing how lithium cell generates energy. It's like a pandora box, no one really want to know, from my perspective.

From my experience working with Boeing, they're very conservative toward adopting technology, rarely incorporates new thing unless management is completely assured its safety, and the lithium has embarrassed them like never before.

[jazty]

As stated above, the large scale installs people are doing these days are using LiFePO4 technology, not the more volatile LiCoO2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that your fire incident was with a LiCoO2 battery. While no battery is perfectly safe (lead acid included) LiFePO4 has proved to be quiet stable.

[kwang_yi]

jazty,

I was involved in Electrical Vehicle program, when Musk was still in the kinder garden, I don't know you've heard of EV-1.
I know little of lithium batteries, unless you have a scientific data to prove Lithium Phosphate is more safer than Lithium Ion, you're not telling me anything. I read few IEEE publication, nothing has convinced me one is better than other, you think you can tell me more that I should know?