WVO and WVO blends

[the_experience03]

Ok...I got the days off for WeFest in Detroit Lakes, Minnesota off without even trying and I have free tickets so I think I'm going to have to go, but fuel prices are a killer. Unfortunately I just don't have the time or money to implement a full two tank system in my bus yet so after doing enough reading to make my eyes bleed, I think I'm going to try a somewhat common blend just to get a feel for WVO. It should cut my fuel costs by 25% which certainly adds up.

My plan:
1. Try and find a source of oil tomorrow. I will then rig up a filtering system using two water filter kits from work. For now I will heat the oil in my turkey fryer. I know propane isn't free, but this is experiemental anyway and to heat the little bit of oil I might get to an adequate filtering temp shouldn't use much propane anyway.

2. Pour a precisely measured amount of filtered oil into a mixing can along with the other ingredients

3. Put it in the tank after a good shaking and give it a test drive. I will do so for a short trip with a relatively small amount of this fuel so if there is a problem it is easy enough to correct between my tank draincock and bleeding the IP.

The blend I plan to use is 70% diesel, 25% WVO, 3% naptha, 2% gas, and a splash of fuel conditioner.

If that works, I will continue to use that mixture for the rest of the warm days of summer and build a permanent filtering system (solar heated perhaps?) as this will be necessary with the two tank system. I figure this is a good way to test my oil quality from different places and learn some of the inside tricks and secrets before I get to the full on two tank conversion.

Anyone out there have any input on this idea? If it sounds dumb, save me an injector pump and speak up now

[lapeer20m]

dont' tell anybody, but i've run 50/50 wvo diesel in my stock tank on occasion without any problem. I was on my way from nevada to michigan, and i used 50/50 for a couple of fillups. I did have 2 spare fuel filters (the oil was already filtered, and hot) It was late summer, and temps were in the 80's and 90's during the daytime.

I was able to consume all of the fuel in the tank and was running 100 percent (or very near) diesel by the time i got back to michigan so i didn't have to park the bus with lots of veggie in it.

Fuel gets heated as it passes through the injector pump then is returned to the tank. I've never measured the temperature of my diesel fuel during a long trip, but it must get pretty hot. When i'm running veggie, no matter how hot the oil is going to the engine, the oil being returned to the tank is always way hotter. I estimate that for every gallon of fuel consumed by the engine, 10 gallons is returned to the tank. This is at or near idle. I don't know if the ratio changes when the engine is running at higher speeds, but the fuel being returned to the tank is still boiling hot.

One advantage i found when running 50/50 is that there is almost no measurable loss of power when climbing hills and such. Running 100 percent veggie yeilds significantly less hill climbing power, and even takes a couple miles per hour off of the top end speed while on flat ground.

[Steve]

So for heating up your stored oil what if you had a block heater and pump that constantly circulated hot oil until your engine was up to temp and able to run without it. I'm talking about an inline hose type heater not the freeze plug type.

[lapeer20m]

i don't see why it couldn't work. If one wanted to use electricity, i think that a band heater from mcmaster carr could also work quite well.....if you didn't have a return line.

Fuel is flowing really fast with a return line, but without it, an engine only consumes a gallon every 6 -10 minutes. A pair of these heaters should do a good job heating the oil.



here is the link to the website:

http://www.mcmaster.com/index.asp

people use these when trying to burn veggie oil in their fuel oil boilers. Veggie oil has to be heated to about 300 degrees to ignite in one of those units.

you would also need a temperature controller that can be had for cheap on ebay. I got one for controlling the temp of my jacuzzi brand new for about 20 bucks.

i still think the best veggie system design uses engine coolant to heat the oil. It is certianly the most efficient.

[ParadigmCrime]

I have two tanks.. the stock tank for diesel, and the second tank for WVO.

Basically how mine works is very simple.

I have pipeing comeing off the coolant which make the coolant take a detour along the vegoil fuel line, then the coolant line cuts back into the regular system.

It takes about 5mins of running on diesel for the coolant to heat up the vegoil lines to the right tempature. Or just a minute or two on the freeway.

Basically I look at the heattemp gauge and when it reaches 180 stable I flip the switch and start running on waste veg oil.

Anyone could build this system its very easy. I want to change it a bit though and make the coolant looop run through the tank, so that in cold weather the tank doesnt get too thick. Then even if it was damn freezing out a couple minutes running on diesel would turn my vegoil tank back into very thin liquid.

I hold about 65gallons vegoil! and 65 gallons diesel. I also have a spare 55gallon drum in the back of the bus.

My plan tomarrow is to fill up the 55gallon drum, and then sunday start driving towards Texas (Im in VA right now). With the 55gallon drum filled up (and my vegoil tank full), I shouldnt have to stop for fuel until houston. Which is where Im staying for a few days to refill and hang out with friends. Then Im headed towards Arizona where I live.

I bought this Bus already converted in Asheville NC, and drove it to VA beach. The only problem I had was the waterpump breaking on the way, which was not related to the vegoil system. Its just an oldervehical with lots of miles on it.

[the_experience03]

I do plan on doing the two tank system....believe me...but the idea behind the blending is that you don't have to heat the fuel. This is not be being experimental as many people have had a great amount of success. The naptha will thin the fuel by actually suspending the fats and waxes. Other solvents work as well, but for whatever reason the naptha KEEPS it that way instead of having the veggie oil seperate out after a few days of sitting.

Anyway...I didn't get a chance to try this this weekend, but I DO intend to as the 200 some mile trip we took to Two Harbors, Minnesota to perform in a parade followed by a short scenic trip up the North Shore was a bit spendy at about $80.

[lapeer20m]

Originally Posted by the_experience03

instead of having the veggie oil seperate out after a few days of sitting..

one little expierement i've been thinking of doing is putting a blend of 50/50 veggie diesel into a clear container (pop bottle?) and leaving it sit for a while to see what happens. Does diesel and veggie actualy separate ? I've heard lots of talk about it.

[the_experience03]

I don't know for sure and that's why I was thinking about that blend with the naptha. I think I'll try your way and put some in a glass jar. In fact, I will make up several jars in a Mythbusters sort of way to test them.

The powers that be have smiled on me, actually. I have found a few sources of what appears to be good oil. On top of that, many of the components to make the true two tank system are on sale this week where I work. We have even had a few water heaters come back with some small electrical problems (ok...the big kind that get red trucks with flashing lights at your house) so I think I might try one of those as my tank. I will use a generic 1500 watt element to preheat a full tank (never a partial as I don't want the element exposed to air) at home or off the gennie, etc. One of the water lines at the top will be my return fitting while the draincock on the bottom will serve as the supply since the thing will be laying horizontally most likely with a bench on top of it.

For my heating unit I think I might weld up a small box. I will put a tranny cooler inside it which the oil will flow through. This will be put inside the box which will be filled with coolant from my old heater taps. That part of it seems simple....

Here's the tough part...what did you use for valves and where did you put them on your 6.6, Jason? Were they tied in right before the factory fuel filters on the supply side? What about the return side? Also...how do you heat the oil that is past the heat exchanger, but before the valve on the supply side? You could put the valve RIGHT after the heat exchanger, but the line would never drain even after you closed that supply because of vacuum. I really don't want a load of cold veggie hitting my IP....

Also...how did you know the oil was at 160* or so? Did you put an oil temp sending unit after the heater with a gauge or what? I don't exactly trust my temp gauge and even if I did...just because the engine is at 180* or whatever doesn't mean the veggie is that warm yet.

I think I'm on the right track here, but any help would be GREATLY appreciated. It certainly is nice to have someone on the board who has not only done plenty with veggie conversions, but has done one on my particular motor and chassis

[lapeer20m]

i think you're doing great.

I ran my veggie fuel lines zip tied to my coolant lines from the tank to the engine compartment. The final couple of feet of fuel line was not connected to the coolant line however. I did install a temp guage in the veggie tank. It was actually a engine temp guage from autozone for pretty cheap. 160 degrees is almost unatainable. Anything over about 110 or so if fine. My bus would start and idle on straight veggie oil that was over about 50 degrees. I started my bus tons of times in the morning on just veggie. She had to idle for a while to heat the oil before i could drive though. The cold oil couldn't get through the oil filter fast enough.

I also had to pump my oil from the tank to the IP to get her to run right. Other systems i looked at did not require this aux pump however.

I used brass 1/4 turn valves in my first conversion....and i put them under the hood. That was stupid! For about the same price you can buy the fancy 6 port electric valve from jc whitney. Buy the electric valve, it's well worth it. I think it's a pollock brand. For the fuel thats going toward the IP, i've noticed that nearly all fuel filters have NPT threads on them, making it easy to tap into the fuel system. 3/8" npt is most common. The steel fuel lines themselves have some crazy compression fittings that are difficult for me to adapt to. I find that for the return line, cutting the steel fuel line (or sometimes stiff plastic) with a hacksaw and using rubber fuel line with a hose clamp makes for a suitable connection point. There's not much pressure on the return line.

make sure you use larger diameter fuel line than you think you need. Something that's nearly 1/2" ID is a good idea. My first conversion had too small diameter fuel lines on it.

one more thing.....You'll most likely need an aux coolant pump 12 volt to help convince the coolant to flow from the motor through your heat exchanger and back. You can find a suitable one at Tractor supply company.

[the_experience03]

My system will be right up behind the driver's seat and I will tap into the coolant lines there. I'm REALLY hoping I don't need an auxilary pump just because it's one more piece in the puzzle and it would likely be annoying right behind my seat. My sincere hope is that since the coolant used to flow all the way to the back of the bus for the rear heaters, it will do ok right up to the front. Time will tell.....

How about filtration? I will of course carry a few spare fuel filters for under the hood, and I will filter my oil rather well before putting it anywhere near the tank, but how fine is fine enough? We have a super deal on some Goldenrod filter assemblies this week that I will probably buy. The problem is that the finest filter we stock (and most places I've seen) for it is 10 microns. Is this fine enough? I suppose I could always prefilter it to 5 using the water filter technique and just have the 10 micron filter inline on the bus itself because I'm paranoid like that. Any ideas?

Also...I have found a few sources of non-hydrogenated oil which is good, but I could probably triple my supply if I used partially hydrogenated oil from some of the other places. Did you ever run this stuff? I know it's thick, but did it heat up and thin out ok? How about using some of the naptha to thin this :P

Sorry to harass you so much, but you seem to have made a lot of the mistakes for me already. Besides...I'm doing the environmentally sound, pocketbook friendly thing here. So far one complete tank of diesel will pay for the system as I have it laid out. Scary, eh?

[lapeer20m]

personally i'd stay away from oil that gets solid at room temperature. When it solidifies in the fuel lines, it takes a lot of driving (and sometimes a propane torch) to melt the solid material back into nice liquidy oil.

My aux coolant pump on the ford was from the factory and under the hood. You may or may not have one. MY new bus, the international, did not come with one, but after adding a pair of heater cores in the coolant circuit an aux pump was necessary for proper flow.

I filter my oil using hosehold water filters that are rated at 20 micron. The other micron rated filters do not appear to be made of the same material, and i've had the greatest success with the 20's. You can buy them at wal-mart, home-depot, tractor supply and about any hardware. They're about 2 or 3 bucks each. After the oil is filtered, i run it through the bus' stock fuel filter before it goes into the engine. I have no idea the micron rating for the stock filter, but i think i get about 1,500 miles out of the filter before it gets plugged up. Always carry a spare! Having an aux fuel pump in the diesel fuel line will make filter changes a snap. Not to mention those times when you run out of veggie, or veggie stopps flowing for whatever reason.

The difference between having the 12 volt diesel pump is this: Flip a switch to turn on the diesel fuel pump when the engine begins to die, wait a few seconds and drive on down the highway.....

or without the aux pump. when the engine begines to die, turn on yoru 4 way flashers, pull onto the shoulder, coast to a stop, get out your 3/4" wrench so you can crack an injector, use the hand primer to prime the system, turn the key, let the bus run for a few seconds before it stalls again, then repeat the priming process a couple more times until fuel sprays out of hte cracked injector (while the eingine is runnin). Shut the engine down, tighten the injector, close the hood, and take off again.

For $35 and a couple hours work you can install the aux pump. Well worht the effort. Nothing impresses your friends more than sitting along the highway with your hood open trying to prime the fuel system in the middle of the nite!

[the_experience03]

Hehe...I have only cracked an injector once to see if fuel was coming out (which it wasn't). After I pumped mine up, I let it backdrain through the air purge on the filters. Did your 6.6 not have this? Also...I'm fairly well convinced my bus doesn't have the aux. coolant pump although it's just about impossible to tell with all the hacking thats been done on that system over the years

[the_experience03]

Ok....so I've done lots of research, thermodynamic calculations, etc lately in deciding what to do. I want to make my 4000 mile cross country journey across the country before school starts up again a reality, but the only way it's going to happen is on WVO.

Here's what I came up with...in terms of making my own heat exchanger, using exhaust gases to heat the oil was far and away the best method in terms of getting up to temp in a reasonable amount of time and getting HOT. However, flexible copper is up over $1.00 per foot right now. Hydronic baseboard heaters run about $10 per foot right now. Tranny coolers with enough surface area are $50. A-coils from a central air system contain too many plastic parts. Basically, I've decided against building my own heat exchanger. Instead I'm going to buy a flat plate heat exchanger off eBay. The one I found is comparable to the $170 unit we sell at work (it's actually rated slightly higher). I like how compact they are and they are well proven for WVO conversions. The one I plan to buy is listed below.

http://cgi.ebay.com/26-plate-Flat-Pl...QQcmdZViewItem

As for a tank....again I've been wrestling, but I think I'm just going to buy a new poly tank and avoid all the headaches. I can get either a 35 gallon or a 65 gallons from work for $75 or $135 respectively. They are similar to this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/35-Gallon-Horizo...QQcmdZViewItem

They are heat and chemical resistant. The only problem is that they only have one NPT fitting on them for the supply. I will have to drill and install a return line fitting. The cool thing is that the supply fitting is an inch or two above the bottom of the tank allowing for some settling room. I'm not sure which tank I will go with. The 65 gallon tank has the obvious advantage of not requiring filling up as often, but the 35 gallon will take up far less space and since it will be in the living room behind my seat, that's something to look at. Either way it will be enclosed and have a bench or something on top of it. The size of the tank really doesn't matter in terms of heating has the heating will be done downstream in the heat exchanger.

For valves I'm going to go with the 1/4 turn brass valves. I can get them cheap at work...much cheaper than the $75 Pollack electric valve. I just don't trust anything electronic plus they will allow me to prevent any WVO from returning to the diesel tank, as little as it might have been.

I haven't decided on hose yet. The clear vinyl "beer bong" hose is cheapest and is pressure rated for much more than this system will ever see, but the hot oil will be at the upper end of it's thermal ratings at the given pressure so I'm not sure about that. Rubber fuel hose is much more stout and runs $.70 per foot for 3/8ths, the biggest we carry where I work. Copper is probably the most stout option and allows heating with a torch if all else fails, but is prohibitively expensive right now. We just underwent another price change on it this week.

I have yet to find an appropriate pump for priming, etc. I might just try and see if I can get it to work without it. If I can't get it to run well without it I'll sink some money into a pump. No big deal...I guess. We used to have a neat little pump that chucked into a drill where I work, but we have since changed suppliers and can't get it anymore. Oh well I guess.

For filtering I think I will use a hand pump through a 20 micron fuel filter/water seperater and a 10 micron finishing filter. We sell both of these for cheap and the Goldenrod brand is common enough to not have a problem. They are cheaper than the water filter method and are designed for this purpose locally. I think I may try and figure out a gravity feed system so that when we park and go out and about it can do the work for me as I know we cannot haul anywhere near enough WVO with us on this trip. Even with a 55 gallons drum where the shower will eventually be and the 35 gallon tank full we will only be running 720 miles or so on WVO. Obviously fill ups anywhere possible along the way will be necessary. Thankfully we're never in a rush to get anywhere.

The only problem that REALLY remains is getting it all installed and tested in the next 3 weeks. I also need to come up with as much GOOD veggie oil as possible which may be a little more difficult. Most of the oil around here is partially hydrogenated. It's "liquid" at room temp, but not all THAT "liquid." Perhaps I'll be trying the naptha trick anyway. Either eay I'm going to have a big bottle of cetane boost, injector cleaner, and some spare fuel filters with me. Any thoughts before I proceed as planned?

[the_experience03]

Ok....I got the boost leak fixed on the bus and my phantom air leak on the brakes is gone....maybe it was just a sticking diaphragm.....I dunno.

I figured out where I want to put my lines I think. I finally found my Racor thermocoil....on a framerail way far back so so much for using that as supplemental fuel heat. I don't even know if the thing works to be perfectly honest.

I think the heat exchanger will mount nicely on the firewall on the door side. I will then use the heater lines going through the firewall there as my tap into the cooling system. They are only about 3 feet from the thermostat housing and get plenty warm though I still think I might be using the weather front in the dead of summer to get enough heat from my motor

I'm going to tie into the supply line on the firewall as well. There is an aftermarket filter assembly there that I will T into on the discharge side because it is not rated for heated fuel. In fact, it sternly warns against running heated fuel through it. I will still have the two factory filters in place for the WVO, however. This should allow my lift pump to draw the fuel though I will leave plenty of space for a pump should I need it.

As for the return lines....this is where I might need a little help, Jason. I traced the lines back to the IP as there are a ton of steel lines running all over. It appears that the steel line coming from just to the right of the primer plunger is about the only realistic place to tie in. This would be ok as it will allow me to "flush" any semi-solid WVO from the return line using diesel if need be. However...there is limited space here to work with. How did you cut the lines, Jason? I plan to use the hose clamp and rubber line method to space my valves out far enough to make them easy to use, but I'm worried about how to cut that thick steel stuff. I'm also worried about bending the fuel line enough without kinking it, but as this is a pressure line and not a suction side, I think I will be ok as the fuel will force what little deformation might occur out of it.

Oh...and I think I'm going to use a 55 gallon barrel as my fuel tank as it is free. That's $75 that can go towards better (read: electric) filtration equipment.

So far so good?

[the_experience03]

Ok....here's my theoretical, soon to be reality system to allow on-the-road filtering. I give up settling (other than in the dumpsters at the restaurants) so I will go through more filters, but for a trip of this magnitude, it becomes necessary.

I also bought my 30 plate heat exchanger last night.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/the_ex...e2.jpg&.src=ph[/url]

[lapeer20m]

steel fuel lines are pretty difficult to bend. My suggestion would be to cut out a small section of the return line so you have room to attach rubber lines. A hacksaw if you have room works quite well for cutting steel fuel lines. A sawzall also work well if you use a blade with a lot of tpi.

There's not much danger of a spark igniting the fuel, since diesel fuels ignition temperature is well above 100 degrees. To be safe, you should keep an ABC fire extinguisher handy.

[the_experience03]

I wasn't planning on bending them....hopefully....but where exactly did you tie into the return line? Trying to find a place where there's enough room for easily accessible valves is a bit tricky....

[lapeer20m]

you could cut them and attach rubber fuel lines, then mount your valve several inches from the cut in the fuel line.


on my international there was plenty of space to cut and splice

on the ford i made a very poor decision and tried to tap into the thread on the side of the injector pump where the return line is attached. The problem is that it was some crazy thread...something other than npt. It was a dumb thing to do at the time, but i forced an npt fitting into the threads....I don't think i ever got it to stop leaking completely.

[Diesel Dan]

The bus will probably run on 100% WVO in warm weather, but for how long? It may seem like it runs fine, but the problem I have heard is that over time you will get coked injectors and rings. Also, you have to wonder if it will shorten the life of your lift pump and injection pump. I don't mess around with blending. It will always be thicker than the fuel is supposed to be. I suggest you stick with a two tank system so you are starting on diesel or biodiesel, and then switching over when the WVO is up to at least 160 degrees. If you do it right, you should be able to switch over after only 5 minutes run time in warm weather, and just a few minutes more in the winter.