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Old 09-30-2015, 11:20 PM   #41
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
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Engine: ISC 8.3
Whoa, hey, back up the train (or bus?) just a little bit.

I love the chilled water idea. I've been thinking the same thing for my bus.. my heating system will comprise in-floor hydronic loop(s) plus a few water-to-air heat exchangers (ie, the heaters that came with the bus). The floor loops might not be much use for cooling because of potential condensation problems, but those water-to-air exchangers could be used for cooling too if only I could figure out how to chill the water. This is perfect. I had no idea exchangers like those you have from Duda were so readily available. I too dislike rooftop A/C, and would love to air ducts since I'll already have water loops running around anyway.

Maybe you're planning to draw a schematic of the system, but in case not... I guess you've just plumbed from the compressor to the rooftop condensers, then through a thermal expansion device, into one port on the plate exchanger, and finally returning back to the compressor? (and an accumulator too, I just don't remember whether it goes on the suction or discharge side.)

Have you done any heat load/transfer calculations, or is this kind of a "some is good, more is better" approach?

You mentioned the refrigerant loops are independent. What about the water side? Are the water side of the exchangers in parallel or series, or are there two separate water systems?
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:13 AM   #42
Skoolie
 
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Join Date: May 2015
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 237
Year: 1998
Chassis: VanHool T945
Engine: Cummins M11
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For use as an RV this amount of cooling (7tons) and distribution is a bit overkill. Being that 3-5 tons is usually used on large RVs / tour busses like presvost etc..
The water loop on plate side is parallel from both plates straight to 30gal tank. This setup mocks that of large format industrial chillers. Each compressor is independent to a plate exchanger. TXV expansion valve, evap coal, and plate exchanger as condenser.
The water tank itself has a set temp of what you want your coil temps to be on the air handlers. So basically the two compressors have 4 stages to maintain the temp.

1st stage 70% one comp
2nd stage 100% one comp
3rd stage one comp at 100% and other at 70%
4th stage both at 100%

These are controlled by a temp control for each stage as to not overshoot the desired water temp. Say about 1.5 to 2deg off per stage.

The tank is insulated like mad and can store the chilled water. This means (in Vegas) I can run compressors at night when it's cooler and easier to chill and it will help get through higher load during peak day.
If you had room temp water and turned system on all for stages would fire up and chill the 30gal as quick as possible. As the desired temp is reached and to just maintain the water - it will cycle down to just one or two stages.
Idea is based to be more efficient than just running 5 rooftop units.

Difficulty like you said is condensation. All water lines need to be insulated and the air/water handlers need condensate drains to outside bus.
Cool thing is the main roof unit already has this setup. I'm just gonna run high pressure chilled water through the rather large original (but modified) condenser coil that has the blowers. I put speed controllers on the blower mothers to run them all at lower speed and have less ducting now so it is fairly quiet (this main unit is in my kitchen though, so it's not a big deal for some amount of noise)
The front lounge is tricky as the air/water coil I will use here is the old heater coil from roof. (6' long but only 1.5 deep and 5" wide) so I can build a flat but long handler that hangs sorta where old parcel racks were above the side windows.

Each compressor is 3.5 tons. Original roof coils were 8tons combined so Split it's basically 2 4 ton evap coils.
Each plate exchanger is rated around 3 tons or more pending water and refrigerant flow rates in told from manufacturer.

Here is the chiller control box I'm building

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Old 10-01-2015, 12:24 AM   #43
Skoolie
 
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Year: 1998
Chassis: VanHool T945
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Here is the blowers and where the kitchen condenser goes:



I am changing out the old 24v evap fans with modern radiator 12v Ones.. With all 5 runing you can't even hear it in bus and outside standing next to bus it's barely audible. As they shoot straight up unobstructed.

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Old 10-01-2015, 12:33 AM   #44
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Chilled water coils I'll use for the front lounge (one per side of bus above windows in the parcel area) these will have their own fan controls / condensate drains / and flow air down windows and out vents. Water is controlled via a solenoid from the water loop. Temp controller monitors the ambient air temp in this zone and turns water flow on/off.. All Fan speed is set on iPads for all zones.

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Old 10-01-2015, 06:32 AM   #45
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Review upgrade!!!!!



Well BEYOND amazing now...........

GLUED to this thread as y'all have BROKEN the bar, waaaaay beyond raised it.......

Looking forward to the movie!
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:01 AM   #46
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Sweet!!! Thanks - I'm just getting started...

So today I just confirmed arrangements with a engineer I work with at a casino that does TIG welding for stainless. I decided to go complete industrial in my kitchen and wanted the stainless countertop with sink - pre wash faucet fixtures etc to go with the True fridge. I could not find one that fit the format - so bought the items to build it. 8' counter solid surface and a nice deep sink that is TIG welded via undermount with finished edges. Will end up being one solid surface with no seams into the sink. BAM that's what I want. I'm so excited to get the kitchen on its way.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:08 AM   #47
Skoolie
 
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I'll have pics of the finished countertop before next Thursday. I drop everything off to be welded this weekend.

In one week I drive to CA to do some more woodworking with my dad - I have till then to complete the drawer and undercounter design on sketchup.

More brazing and working on chiller this weekend. Should be pressure testing the closed compressor loops.

Until then - it's always nice to chill on top of a bus

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Old 10-01-2015, 07:59 AM   #48
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Year: 1999
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Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
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This is the bus I would have built if I weren't a poverty stricken hippie. For comfortable long distance travel, a coach is the superior platform.
And looks really boss, too.
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:22 AM   #49
Skoolie
 
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I got bus chassis on an RV loan. I didn't have the best credit either, but she only cost me 300 month... Less than my car payment.
So going from 2k month housing expense to this was a drastic change.
My goal was to reduce my expenses and not be tied to one location.
Since it is my primary residence - I'm trying to make it a sweet ride and have all the goodies I love in a small space.
I think you can do anything you put your mind to.

I've also seen some vanhools as cheap as 9k. One is on ebay right now for 13k - It's a lot of bus for the money. Granted a skoolie can be had way cheaper at auctions and such, but Most people I talk to just don't realize the differences between these coach chassis and other busses. I just figured it was worth it in the long term.
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:41 AM   #50
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Location: Eustis FLORIDA
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Year: 1999
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Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Paid 46k cash for my house on .33 acre lot.
I agree- paying stupid high rent is for the birds. I lived in a free downtown ghetto building before I finally bought my house. I plan to rent this place out once the bus is done. I wanna be on the right end of the vicious rent cycle!
I've seen some screaming deals on VanHools.
I think there are lots of people who would do better with a coach than a school bus. But school buses are more chic... They're blowing up on Pinterest!

If driving long distances is part of one's plan then something designed for such is a logical step but many don't seem to understand that. A coach is built to go a million miles or so. School buses are pretty rough by a half mil... usually.
My bus will likely see less than 15k for the rest of its life as long as I own it so I saved a ton of money going with a more easily modded school bus.
I want an MC5 next.
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:28 AM   #51
Skoolie
 
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I hear ya.. It's all preference and intended use.
I personally drool over the newer charter coaches way more than even a 2mil luxury RV or presvost conversion.

For example:



Drool - sigh.... I want to custom convert one of those!!! Someday...

Mine kinda looks like that - lol
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:15 PM   #52
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Engine: 3208 turbo Cat
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Offgr1d, you just threw a monkey wrench on my project with all this amazing Ideas, have to say I need to re-focused on my project and love my Skoolie, but I'll keep an eye on a van-hool. keep up the pics.

J
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Old 10-01-2015, 01:55 PM   #53
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very cool build thread!!! that's an awesome platform for sure.

the vanhools buses are huge!!!

ima looking forward to see how it all finishes
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:39 PM   #54
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Year: 1992
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Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
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That sink and kitchen faucet is exactly what I'm going for. I already have the sink, I'm keeping my eye out for a used commercial faucet.

I'm so glad to see someone with vision. The ability to outsource and have things custom made is awesome. Once you open your mind, and break free from using what is made for other purposes, things become far better.

Like using custom hat channels VS square tube for roof raises.

I also love that you are doing a one piece stainless steel counter / sink. Far too many people just slap some crappy wood counter top into their bus. I hate giving mold a place to grow. Wood should not be used in wet locations.

Thanks for sharing, and keep the pics coming.

Nat
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:59 PM   #55
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Engine: ISC 8.3
Cool idea with the sink. I've been thinking about something along the lines of this sink with integrated drying rack I saw at Ikea. Trying to decide whether to have one custom made instead (or use the excuse to get into TIG myself) to also integrate a back splash, and potentially have the entire counter surface in stainless.. but what about the portable induction cooktop? I'm quite new to those, and it isn't clear to me whether there'd be any problem placing the induction cooktop on a stainless countertop, so long as the countertop is non-magnetic.
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:01 PM   #56
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Chassis: TC2000 FE
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My sink has the drying rack and back splash as one piece. It came from a oilfield geologist skid shack.

The cooktops sit on rubber legs. I can't see it being a issue.

Nat
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:12 PM   #57
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I hadn't even considered having the cooktop on a metal surface as a potential problem until I read it in the manual. It warned not to place the induction unit on top of a conventional range; I inferred this would be because the surface is likely made of mild steel... and is magnetic. Surely most of the power would go into the cookware above because it's so much closer to the coil inside the cooktop. But there would have to be some possibility of inducing heat in an object below, too. My gut says if non-magnetic stainless cookware doesn't work for cooking on the thing, then non-magnetic stainless is fine for a countertop beneath it as well. I just don't know the physics of it well enough to be sure. Not sure why rubber feet would be relevant..
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Old 10-01-2015, 03:45 PM   #58
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Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird Mini-Bird 24'
Chassis: Chevy P30
Engine: Chevy 6.2L Diesel
The rubber feet would be relevant because it would electrically isolate the cooktop from whatever */might/* become magnetically inducted underneath it. The kinds of things I could see happening would be heat underneath the cooktop, melting the rubber feet, cooking the internal wiring, or even building up electrical potential difference (read=voltage) causing the cooktop and whatever is underneath to act as a giant capacitor, creating a VERY NASTY, very possible lethal, spark potential.

I could even see something like this happening if you perhaps had the cooktop sitting over some magnetic plumbing, in the rarest/worst of cases.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:40 PM   #59
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The induction stove goes in a drawer under the stainless countertop. When extended it should be far enough from metal so it will only effect the intended cookware.
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:33 PM   #60
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Interesting points everyone.

Glad you guys brought this up before I get to that part of my build.

I will have to do a bit of reading on Google.

Nat
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