Missy Conversion - 1998 MCI 102 - Page 24

Twigg · 03-02-2018, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonb8

Plagiarism is the highest form of flattery in my opinion....

I had no idea how to build a teardrop when I decided I wanted one so I read everything there was on the internet on teardrops... Amazing what you can learn from reading... I'm in that process now on the schoolie build, I'm already numb but love the idea of such a big challenge.....

When I managed a staff team I told them not to bring me problems, bring me solutions.

Often their solutions were better than I would have come up with, and at the very least they were a starting point for discussion.

It's not "plagiarism", it's recognizing the strengths of others. It's only bad when you take credit for other people's ideas.

PNWorBUST72 · 03-03-2018, 07:41 AM

JD - So did you keep anything active from the OTR Heat or AC? It looks like you laid plywood right over the ductwork and covered the intake where the ramp used to be.

JDOnTheGo · 03-03-2018, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNWorBUST72

JD - So did you keep anything active from the OTR Heat or AC? It looks like you laid plywood right over the ductwork and covered the intake where the ramp used to be.

Yes, the systems are still in place but you are correct, I covered over all the ducts.

My original plan was to remove the air conditioning system and install a generator and roof air. However; I am now undecided - several things make this a complicated decision. I'm not in a rush so just waiting to see what happens to force a decision - or sway me one way or the other.

cadillackid · 03-03-2018, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOnTheGo

Yes, the systems are still in place but you are correct, I covered over all the ducts.

My original plan was to remove the air conditioning system and install a generator and roof air. However; I am now undecided - several things make this a complicated decision. I'm not in a rush so just waiting to see what happens to force a decision - or sway me one way or the other.

drive through the south and southwest in summer a day or two and you'll be glad to have road A/C for the road and parked A/C for being parked...

JDOnTheGo · 03-04-2018, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

drive through the south and southwest in summer a day or two and you'll be glad to have road A/C for the road and parked A/C for being parked...

With a generator (or sufficient electrical power) the roof A/C can be used while driving AND parked. Redundancy is nice but, for something like A/C (large and expensive) there is certainly an argument for having a single system.

The things I'm trying to balance:
1. Height of coach in 'low ride' position for getting into/out of a building with a 12' door (a potential that may be of value to me depending on what the future holds). The most compact roof A/C units would put this height at about 12' 6" - it would be really great to stay under 12'.

2. The current OTR A/C system consumes a ton of space in the basement - one whole bay on the driver side, half a bay on passenger side. Plus the massive engine driven six-cylinder compressor. All of this space could be used for a generator - and maybe even a basement A/C system - sized more appropriately for my needs (and the coaches current use (no longer hauling around 56 hot humans)).

3. Even if I remove the OTR A/C system, I would like to retain the dash A/C. Those don't go hand in hand very easily.

4. The OTR A/C system is reportedly very expensive to maintain/repair. It works now but I would be very likely to rip it all out at the first failure (which could be next month or ten+ years from now). Compared to the cost of repairing a serious problem with the OTR A/C system, roof A/C units are pretty affordable (for example; a replacement compressor ~$3800, evaporator ~$4,300).

5. Having an alternator that produces ~6000 watts (on paper - 270 amp @ 24 volt) provides some interesting possibilities for running some sort of A/C system (roof or basement) without having to run a generator.

6. Ducting in the floor/basement already exists (for the current system) and could be used with a basement mounted A/C system.

7. I experimented with a "mobile" air conditioner (this one from Whynter) last summer. It worked well but the air hoses were a major nuisance and one unit was nowhere near sufficient my coach (which was not a surprise). The price and size were wonderful. Mounting 2-3 of these in the basement is a thought. The cold air could be ducted thru the existing floor ducts. Of course, nearly any A/C system is a possibility (mini-split, vertical or horizontal residential unit, etc…).

So…

I like what Johan (joeblack5) is doing with his A/C system (pony motor to run compressor) but I'm not sure I want to go that route yet (watching his results). I like the simplicity of a generator and rooftop A/C.

I like rooftop A/C for their cost and simplicity. I don't like them for adding height. The alternative, obviously, is consuming space inside the coach somewhere - likely the basement - and I don't like that either.

If I end up with roof A/C units, I need to install ducting in the ceiling. So, this decision is slowing down the ceiling construction. I realize that ducting is not required but having lived with both styles - I will only go with a ducted approach because it is much quieter inside the coach.

Juggling lots of balls at the moment and wishing something would fall into place so some decisions could be made. I may just have to pick and option and be happy with it.

cadillackid · 03-04-2018, 08:32 AM

From my experience your roof AC will leave you sweating in the driver seat unless you have one right over you.. a mini split on the front bulkhead maybe stands a chance but overcoming road heat is not an easy task. Most all motor homes built run engine AC for the road and roof air on a genny for parked.
Cooling off road heat and sun takes BTU..
Christopher

JDOnTheGo · 03-04-2018, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Most all motor homes built run engine AC for the road and roof air on a genny for parked.

That is true, but incomplete. They ALSO run the roof mounted air when on the road/driving (by running their generator). I did it for years and it works just fine. The dash A/C is terribly inadequate when very hot/humid (unless the driver compartment is "closed" - which some folks do with a 'curtain').

JDOnTheGo · 03-06-2018, 07:26 AM

The time had come to do some work on Missy's dash and wiring.

I had several goals: remove the now obsolete/unused audio/visual system wiring, clean up the dash switch panels, add some USB charging sockets, replace the cracked and broken right side switch panel, and permanently install the wiring for my backup camera system.

The right side switch panel when I started.

The rotary headlight switch has been showing signs of falling apart so I was a little nervous about it. Of course, it crumbled as soon as it was touched. Only $155 for a replacement!

Actually, while certainly not excited about the price, the fact that a replacement is even available really is a big positive. Below is a 'good' switch on left, the crumbling 'bad' switch on the right.

With everything exposed and all tie wraps - that I could find - snipped, I started gently pulling out the wires that were no longer in use. Nothing difficult about that but I always try to be very careful doing this as pulling out wiring that should not come out always seems to result in a much bigger repair job.

Next was the vehicle tracking "stuff". Once again, a good number of bits and wiring ended up on the ground. The photo doesn't do it justice as there is no scale - it is a big pile!

I pulled the backup camera wiring from the J-box to behind the dash. My handy-dandy electrical snake from Amazon went into action and did a fine job for me once again! I'm not sure how I lived for so many years without one of these snakes.

It was time to remove all the switches from the right hand switch panel. I REALLY wanted to avoid breaking a bunch of things while doing this so I was very gentle. All came apart reasonably well which left me with a pile of switches that were grimy and gross.

I gave the job of cleaning these switches to the bus boys. Note their reaction and obedience.

The left hand armrest/panel - in addition to the previously mentioned buttons - had two cigarette lighter style power sockets, only one of which worked. Also a microphone jack and two 12 VDC power sockets that were very non-standard (maybe custom for a particular device - which no longer exists onboard). Some goofball decided to "burn" cigarette lighter circles in the panel which make it look pretty bad - and it is cracked and very aged. However; a replacement panel is not available so I have to work with what I have (and I'm keeping an eye open for a good salvaged panel - if anyone spots one, let me know please).

I added two USB charging ports to the panel, fixed the power socket that was not working, and added a 5.5 mm 12 VDC socket.

The little fan I've been using to stay cool while driving has been a real nuisance. It is not mounted to anything and really likes to go flying at every opportunity. It was time to get it mounted to avoid being whacked in the head by a flying fan, again. Finding a good spot was the most difficult bit. I do not like wasting valuable real estate with rarely used items. On the side wall above me was about the best option available. It even afforded pretty simple mounting and wiring. Plus, if it ever falls, I will know immediately! I had hoped to use one of the now unused dash switches to control this fan but I failed to make it work. I ran out of patience but will eventually try again.

The end result of the right side switch panel is much improved. It would be nice to replace all those switches - or at least the face portion - but that is a chunk of change that is simply not "required" so I'll keep it in my pocket.

JDOnTheGo · 03-08-2018, 06:19 AM

This past week I did some experimenting with running Missy's electric (120 VAC) hot water heater from solar/battery.

A bit of rewiring was required first. The water heater power had to move from the distribution panel for the #2 leg of the 50 amp shore power system to the #1 leg distribution panel - which is powered from shore power or inverter. That was a quick and easy task.

The ability to turn off the water heater is necessary so a 25 amp/120 VAC solid state relay was installed between the distribution panel and water heater. This relay was mounted to a stainless steel rail in the basement - to act as a heat sink - and connected to a switch in my electrical cabinet in the house. The relay is powered using 12 VDC.

With the batteries at 100% SOC, the water heater switch was flipped and the inverter and solar panels came to life!

The solar panels producing ~50 amps at 27 VDC, the batteries were discharging at about 5 amps (at 27 VDC).

The water heater worked for about an hour to get the full eleven gallons up to temperature. Those numbers (~55 amps @ 27 VDC = 1485 watts) match up pretty well with the heaters 1500 watt heating element. The 120 VAC relay and surrounding metal was warm but certainly not hot.

What else could I do but jump in the shower?!?!

Ahhh - it was a wonderful HOT shower!

I think I have found my solution for hot water without shore power. For me, it is far easier to work with photoelectric solar panels - even install more of them - than it is to mess with plumbing water to the roof for solar heated water. I really like that option (solar heated water) but the potential for leaks and other complexities (such as having to run anti-freeze) is enough to discourage me - especially in a moving/shaking bus. Of course, the current solution requires a good bit of sun but who wants to take a shower on a cloudy day?!?

I have not yet experimented with leaving the water heater on all day (while powered by battery/solar). This test is certainly of interest as I would guess that getting 11 gallons of water up to temperature is far more work than just keeping it there. At least assuming the outside temperature (around the water heater) is not super cold. I'll get to that test eventually…

JDOnTheGo · 03-09-2018, 12:42 PM

While parked with shore power, heating water is not a problem. Missy's eleven gallon Kuuma heater does a fine job. Heating water while boondocking is the issue to be solved.

There are no shortage of options but there are a shortage of options that I like! It took a while but I finally decided to try operating the Kuuma hot water heater from battery/solar. This required a bit of rewiring. The water heater power cable had to move from the #2 leg of the 50 amp shore power system to leg one - which is powered from shore power or inverter. That was a quick and easy task though.

To control when the heater is on, I installed a 25 amp solid state, 120 VAC relay between the 120 VAC distribution panel to the water heater. This relay was mounted to a steel rail in the basement - to act as a heat sink - and connected to a switch in my electrical cabinet in the house.

With the batteries fully charged, the water heater switch was flipped, and the inverter and solar panels come to life!

With the solar panels producing 50 amps at 24 VDC (double that for 12 VDC), the batteries were discharging at about 5 amps (at 24 VDC).

The water heater worked for about an hour before having the full eleven gallons up to temperature. The 120 VAC relay and surrounding metal was warm but certainly not hot.

Definitely a success!

The updated electrical design is:

cadillackid · 03-09-2018, 01:45 PM

that rocks!!.. if you wwre driving from one place to another would you have enough alternator power to keep the water hot so once you went to boondock mode you only have to keep water hot and account for any usages of water you'd have? rather than have it turned off then kick it on when you stop? or do you not want any energy usage while driving?

JDOnTheGo · 03-09-2018, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

that rocks!!.. if you wwre driving from one place to another would you have enough alternator power to keep the water hot so once you went to boondock mode you only have to keep water hot and account for any usages of water you'd have? rather than have it turned off then kick it on when you stop? or do you not want any energy usage while driving?

Well... couple things.

The water heater has a built-in heat exchanger so once I connect that to the engine cooling system, I will always have hot water after driving. This is common approach with boats and many motorhomes so nothing new. I'm just nervous about cutting into the bus coolant lines. Thus; scared, lazy, not sure the water heater is in it's final resting place, etc...

The engine alternator output is not currently providing any input to the house electrical system (lithium battery bank). It certainly could be done with the appropriate equipment but so far I haven't needed it so no attention has been spent on it. That said, I have had cursory thoughts about running roof air conditioners (such as the Coleman Mach 8 15k btu) from the 270 amp @ 24 volt engine alternator via an inverter. On paper there is plenty of power available for that but I haven't spent any time to determine if it is a good idea or what the issues might be.

cadillackid · 03-09-2018, 02:46 PM

actually that could be a great thing... ypu use the engine coolant as heat.. most likely you stop driving at the end of your day.. what a perfect time to cook and take a shower while the engine coolant stays hot and a little pump circulates it into the water heat.. so you end the daylight hours with a full tank of hot water and fully charged batteries from travelling in the daylight and not much turned on using power...

JDOnTheGo · 03-13-2018, 01:09 PM

Tiny thing, I know…

Missy has an air tank in each of her wheel wells. They are not supposed to be invisible but neither are they supposed to stand out.

It would seem that the last time Missy was painted white a good bit of over-spray fell on these air tanks. With that white on them, they do kind of stand out. I decided it was time to fix that.

A little scrubbing to get the muck and grime off, a few seconds with the can of flat black spray paint, and the air tanks are back to hiding as they are supposed to.

JDOnTheGo · 03-15-2018, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOnTheGo

I have not yet experimented with leaving the water heater on all day (while powered by battery/solar). This test is certainly of interest as I would guess that getting 11 gallons of water up to temperature is far more work than just keeping it there. At least assuming the outside temperature (around the water heater) is not super cold. I'll get to that test eventually…

I noticed today that the water heater switch was on - and I had hot water.

SURPRISE!

I spent a few nights with electric hookups several days ago and must have forgotten to turn the heater off.

So, the heater has been running from battery for the last two days. I haven't been watching very closely but had not noticed any 'unusual' power consumption. So, I guess my speculation was reasonably accurate - once up to temperature, the heater doesn't use a lot power to keep the water hot.

joeblack5 · 03-15-2018, 07:06 PM

Looks like you are already getting to "detail" work. Looks good. Did you polish that rim up for the pic?
later J

JDOnTheGo · 03-16-2018, 07:19 AM

Ha!! I always keep 'em shining!

Actually, I usually have tire covers installed when parked so the wheels tend to stay in pretty good shape.

Sometimes (many times) the big projects just require too much brain power and something simple - like a spray can of paint - sound really enjoyable!!

ben2go · 03-16-2018, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOnTheGo

I noticed today that the water heater switch was on - and I had hot water.

SURPRISE!

I spent a few nights with electric hookups several days ago and must have forgotten to turn the heater off.

So, the heater has been running from battery for the last two days. I haven't been watching very closely but had not noticed any 'unusual' power consumption. So, I guess my speculation was reasonably accurate - once up to temperature, the heater doesn't use a lot power to keep the water hot.

Our old trailer had an 11 gallon unit in it. If we turned it on, allowed it to completely heat up, and then shut it off, we still had hot water 3 days later. The temps outside would stay between 50 and 80 degrees for those three days. I think the heater shut off at 120 to 125 degrees.

JDOnTheGo · 03-19-2018, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben2go

Our old trailer had an 11 gallon unit in it. If we turned it on, allowed it to completely heat up, and then shut it off, we still had hot water 3 days later. The temps outside would stay between 50 and 80 degrees for those three days. I think the heater shut off at 120 to 125 degrees.

That sounds like one well insulated water heater! Mine will stay warm for quite a while but not that long... but my overnight temps are cooler.

ben2go · 03-19-2018, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOnTheGo

That sounds like one well insulated water heater! Mine will stay warm for quite a while but not that long... but my overnight temps are cooler.

It had the factory foam insulation. Then the manufacturer wrapped it with a fiberglass blanket backed with coated nylon or vinyl before the cabinets were put in. It was a 1998 or 99 Coleman 14 foot. I don't remember the exact model. It was an odd model because it had a full bathroom instead of the combo with the toilet in the shower. It also had a double sink instead of a single.The settee was small tho and barely made a twin size bed.

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