1998 bluebird RE 8.3 Advice?

[Thomas1985]

Hey guys. I'm still taking my time looking for a bus that would work best for me. I found in 1998 bluebird RE 8.3 Cummins diesel with Allison transmission. It's out of state and I could tell that in text messages the owner was put off when I asked if he can get the engine and transmission model numbers. I'm trying to do more research myself instead of bother him because I'm not interested in making a purchase until after the holidays anyway.
So, how can I tell if it's an all American or TC/2000? Are the TC/2000 chassis a lot lighter duty? What are the key differences between two?
Also, I read that the 8.3 Cummins diesel changed that year to electronic and then by 2003 they made more improvements. Is there a chance it could still have the mechanical one?
It seems like 1998/2002 were experimental years not only for that engine model but also for the coach and chassis.
I need the real expertise of several of you guys here. Should I steer clear because of the reasons listed above or can you put my mind at ease?
I like the engine as long as it's not the one model they decided needed improvements. It also has the handicap lift in the center which is very important to me. Has anyone seen this on any other makes and models? This would allow me to enter in the middle where my kitchen is and go back to the master bedroom leaving the front side of the bus undisturbed in sleeping mode. This would be nice in situations where my girlfriend and I have her daughter along who goes to bed earlier. My current situation requires the foldout beds to be stowed away in order for me to get through. two private bedrooms with a kitchen and bath room in the middle.
See the appeal?

-Thomas

[EastCoastCB]

AA has four headlights and TC has two.

[Rameses]

I'll speak to the questions about which I have some knowledge.

Easiest way to tell the difference between a TC2000 and an All American is if you can see the headlights in a picture. A TC2000 will have two headlights, one on each side. An All American will have four headlights, two on each side. I've read that the TC2000 was designed as a lighter duty chassis, but for turning into an RV, it's still plenty heavy enough. No worries there at all. I'll let somebody else chime in on what other differences there are between the two models.

As for what version of the 8.3 it has, no worries there either. Both the mechanical and electronic versions of the 8.3 were fantastic engines, won't leave you wanting more power, and are extremely durable engines.

If you have a picture where you can see the gear selector in the driver's seat area, you can make a pretty safe assumption as to what transmission it has in it. Push-button shifter, most likely an MD3060, lever shift and it most likely has an MT643.

If you can get ahold of the VIN, you can call a Blue Bird dealer and they can tell you what version of engine it came with, what transmission, what rear end ratio, and anything else you might want to know about it.

[WIbluebird]

The rear engine TC2000 was virtually the same as its All American counterpart.

The front engine TC's had lighter duty axles as opposed to the All American.

[cowlitzcoach]

The TC2000 was developed much in the same manner as the Thomas MVP. Both were Type 'D' buses built on a budget to meet a price point that was competitive to a Type 'C' bus with the same number of seating positions.

In order to get to the lower price point the "standard" spe'c's were much lighter duty than found on an All American or Westcoaster.

I could be wrong but I don't think the TC2000's or MVP's ever came with the 8.3L/ISC engine. I know they came with the Cat 3116/3126 and perhaps even some C7's. But the big engine was only available in the All American and Westcoaster.

Part of the less heavy duty nature was the frame rails were 50,000 PSI steel instead of 75,000 or 100,000 PSI steel (now all school bus frame rails are in the 50,000 PSI range and the MVP and TC2000 are no more). Front and rear axles were generally rated at lower weight ratings. And unless ordered differently the widths of both the front and rear brakes were narrower and used smaller air cans. Which meant some of them had comparatively whimpy brakes (the rear brakes on my 1990 TC 2000 were about the same width as the front brakes on my 1979 Crown A-426T-11).

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

I could be wrong but I don't think the TC2000's or MVP's ever came with the 8.3L/ISC engine. I know they came with the Cat 3116/3126 and perhaps even some C7's. But the big engine was only available in the All American and Westcoaster.

The TC2000 was available with an 8.3, but only in a rear engine configuration. It wasn't ever offered with an 8.3 mounted in the front.

[WIbluebird]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

The TC2000 was developed much in the same manner as the Thomas MVP. Both were Type 'D' buses built on a budget to meet a price point that was competitive to a Type 'C' bus with the same number of seating positions.

In order to get to the lower price point the "standard" spe'c's were much lighter duty than found on an All American or Westcoaster.

I could be wrong but I don't think the TC2000's or MVP's ever came with the 8.3L/ISC engine. I know they came with the Cat 3116/3126 and perhaps even some C7's. But the big engine was only available in the All American and Westcoaster.

Part of the less heavy duty nature was the frame rails were 50,000 PSI steel instead of 75,000 or 100,000 PSI steel (now all school bus frame rails are in the 50,000 PSI range and the MVP and TC2000 are no more). Front and rear axles were generally rated at lower weight ratings. And unless ordered differently the widths of both the front and rear brakes were narrower and used smaller air cans. Which meant some of them had comparatively whimpy brakes (the rear brakes on my 1990 TC 2000 were about the same width as the front brakes on my 1979 Crown A-426T-11).

I'm not sure about the MVP but I've seen many Bluebird RE TCs with 8.3 Cummins.

[Thomas1985]

OK,
The engine number is 45569504. Where do I look it up online? The Cummins website didn't have any information for looking it up.
The transmission number is 6510125400.
rear axle is 5.38 differential number HR44CA103 6X

-Thomas

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

OK,
The engine number is 45569504. Where do I look it up online? The Cummins website didn't have any information for looking it up.
The transmission number is 6510125400.
rear axle is 5.38 differential number HR44CA103 6X

-Thomas

That engine's a 6C8.3, 250 hp, built August 14 1997 in the CNS Consolidated Diesel Co plant, with Critical Parts List number 2103, for customer number 1123 (which is probably Blue Bird), and originally installed in VIN number 1BAAKB7A6WF078579.

That transmission's an MD3060R. Which is the overdrive automatic used in school buses and was ordered with the optional (and pretty sought after) retarder.

edit: Oh, and that VIN is a rear engine 1998 TC2000, with air brakes, built in Blue Bird's Fort Valley, GA plant.

[Thomas1985]

Originally Posted by Rameses

That engine's a 6C8.3, 250 hp, built August 14 1997 in the CNS Consolidated Diesel Co plant, with Critical Parts List number 2103, for customer number 1123 (which is probably Blue Bird), and originally installed in VIN number 1BAAKB7A6WF078579.

That transmission's an MD3060R. Which is the overdrive automatic used in school buses and was ordered with the optional (and pretty sought after) retarder.

edit: Oh, and that VIN is a rear engine 1998 TC2000, with air brakes, built in Blue Bird's Fort Valley, GA plant.

Thanks a lot man. Where do you go to get all that information? I wonder what it would cost to get that engine and the rear axle highway and mountain worthy.

-Thomas

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

Thanks a lot man. Where do you go to get all that information? I wonder what it would cost to get that engine and the rear axle highway and mountain worthy.

-Thomas

I amassed a decent collection of links in my bookmarks folder while searching for my bus. It's amazing how little most sellers know about the buses they're trying to sell and how little work they're willing to do to answer questions.

The Cummins info came from the Cummins website, but that section of the page is really difficult to find. It's called Cummins QuickServe Online It requires signing up for an account in order to get information on engine serial numbers, but the free trial account will get you everything you need.

Allison's info is easier to get. Here's the link. Very simple to use.

For the VIN, it depends on the bus's manufacturer. I never was able to find very reliable VIN info for Thomas or AmTran/IC on the internet. For those, it's best to call one of their dealers with the VIN and they can tell you anything you need to know. Just ask to speak to somebody in the parts department. For Blue Bird, I found this list of VIN info. I've never found an instance where info from that list was incorrect.


As far as the engine and axle, they're already good. That engine's got plenty of power and the 5.38 rear end is great for mountains. As is the retarder on the transmission. Some people search low and high to find a bus with a retarder to run big mountains safely. For highway speeds, with the gearing it has, it'll already cruise 60 or 65 mph without being near redline. However, if you can manage to get the transmission's 6th gear unlocked, it'll run 70 mph under 2,000 rpm. (If you're unfamiliar with that, do a search for "MD3060 unlock". That transmission is a 6 speed with two overdrive gears, but top gear is electronically locked out on school buses. Unlocking the second overdrive is something that's been discussed here at length.)

Hope all of that's helpful in some way!

[cadillackid]

sounds like ne heck of a nice drivetrain for running the mountains without any mods!!
-Christopher

[family wagon]

In my bus that power package is up against the engine RPM governor of about 2400 doing 70-72 MPH. Just FYI. Mine has the B300R transmission, but my understanding is its gear ratios are equal to the MD3060.

[Thomas1985]

Was the ceiling height listed anywhere?

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

Was the ceiling height listed anywhere?

Not that I'm aware of. It's my understanding that on a Blue Bird, you have to talk to a dealership to find that out.

[Thomas1985]

Ok,

We pretty well know all about it now. Thanks Ramses. I didn't mention it has 230, 000 miles but I figure there's plenty more in it. I'm interested in that mechanical engine and if I wait until late next year I imagine the buses for sale will be newer models and electronic so I feel like I should jump on it.
What should I look for if I travel to buy it? Im no mechanic (in a wheelchair actually) & those with me have no diesel knowledge.
Also, if I let it set for a year as we build it is there anything I should do regularly to keep it running well? Any worry with the air brakes?

- Thomas

[GreyCoyote]

I just fire mine up every couple of weeks until operating temperatures are reached. It seems to respond well to that. And every couple of months I take it out for a cruise for an hour. The rest of the time it spends on an 8 amp trickle charger. Never a problem.

[Thomas1985]

do I need a commercial driver's license? Is it under 26,000 pounds?

- Thomas

[cowlitzcoach]

You won't need a CDL if it is titled as an RV.

It is better to let a diesel sit than to run it at an idle, even a fast idle, for extended periods of time. You will tend to dilute the lube oil with unburned fuel. The best thing you can do for it is to take it out on a run and exercise it a little. 50 miles at speed would be a long enough to get it up to speed and dry out most of the moisture.

Things to check:

• If the engine is cold, does it start right up or does it need to crank a lot?
• When it starts, what color is the smoke and how much smoke is there? White is pretty normal. Blue means lube oil is burning but if it clears up immediately it shouldn't be that concerning. Black means unburned fuel and if it clears up immediately it shouldn't be a concern.
• Are there any obvious leaks? Most diesels leak out of all of the knotholes. Some are worse than others. If the engine compartment is covered with layers of gunk, that is a big concern. If the engine compartment and the bottom of the engine is relatively clean that is a good thing. If the engine compartment looks like it has recently been cleaned and it appears as if an effort has been made to make things look nice I would be concerned about what might be cleaned up so you can't see what is leaking. It should be pretty obvious if it has been cleaned for the first time in a long time and whether it has been kept relatively clean for a long time.
• What does the oil in the engine and transmission look like and smell like? The engine oil will most likely be blacker than black but it should not smell like diesel fuel. The transmission fluid should be cherry pink and smell sweet. If it is at all darker or smell like caramel that could be a problem.
• If the bus has air brakes, how long does it take to build up air pressure? At what pressure does the compressor cut in and cut out? Are there any leaks?
• What does the bus look like in person? The condition of the paint isn't as important as the condition of the sheet metal. A lot of parking lot rash or evidence of body repair is not good. Some parking lot rash is expected.
• Is there any rust? Bad rust is relative. Bad rust here in WA state means the frame rails are no longer black and shiny. Bad rust in the rust belt means you can stick your fingers through the body panels.

At the end of the day you have to weigh all of the pros and cons of the bus versus what the cost of the bus will be once it is parked in your driveway. A cheap bus that is across the country might be a much better bus than an expensive bus in the next county. The most important things you need to know before you go out kicking the tires is what important have to haves the bus has to have, what would be nice but not willing to pay extra to have, and what you do not want to have.

Good luck!

[Iceni John]

You mentioned it having a transmission retarder, making it good for use in mountains. Just bear in mind that a retarder produces a lot of heat, and it's very easy to seriously overheat a transmission if it's used continuously, especially if there's no transmission fluid cooler or it's too small. The fluid itself can easily be overheated, then it can subsequently cause mechanical wear because it's no longer an effective lubricant. At the very least, install an accurate transmission fluid temperature gauge (I recently replaced mine with a Speedhut gauge, very nice quality and less than $100), and consider installing a transmission fluid remote cooler with thermostatically-controlled fan.

Any supplementary brake, whether a Jake, a retarder or even a Telma, is not an excuse to descend long grades too fast or in too high a gear. You should never descend faster than you would without a supplementary brake. Imagine the supplementary brake suddenly failing - could you then still control the bus?

John