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Old 12-05-2022, 03:01 AM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Allison 3000 series custom transmission programming impossible?

I purchased a Allison 3000 series transmission, it's going in a tandem rear axle 1973 Chevrolet C60, I am using a updated version of the big block chevrolet engine the truck came with.

The big block will be EFI and will be drive by wire capable.

I've read about people doing swaps with the MD3060's but never was able to figure out how they got around the programming issue.

The truck gvwr is well over 40,000 pounds and as far as I know there are not many A/T options out there for class 8 vintage vehicles.
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Old 12-05-2022, 07:22 AM   #2
Bus Geek
 
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Year: 1991
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what programming are you doing or wanting to do?
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Old 12-05-2022, 11:45 AM   #3
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Programming the shift points of the transmission
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Old 12-05-2022, 12:05 PM   #4
Bus Geek
 
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if you want to do direct shift-point programming.. you may be able to get a Tuneable J1939 TCM from jason at transmissiontuner dot com and then buy EFIlive and tune it.. im not sure if he can get 3000 series TCMs or not. thats what I did with my allison 1000 and I built my own transmission tunes.. and no its not easy... you can scatter an allison if you dont know what you are doing... but the result when you get it right is a well-tuned machine...


the other way is to use an allison standard tune for a vehicle that is similar in weight and engine to yours... and this works for 95% of the people..



ive personally never seen a 3000 series on a BBC.. ive seen 1000 / 2000 series that have been Built stout on BBC gas motors.. im not sure if an SAE2 Bell was ever made for the BBC.. most ive seen were with standard GM bell or were SAE3 (the 1000 / 2000 was made in an SAE3 or SAE2 or GMC Bell)..



I had my 1000 Built for 500 HP / 1000 ft lbs torque to run it behind a 7.3 diesel with some juice (injectors, tune, HPOP, turbo).. so far in 5 and a half years I havent wasted it yet...



there was no need for an extra heavy 3000.. (weighs twice a 1000/2000)..
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Old 12-05-2022, 04:58 PM   #5
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Because the smaller diesel engines tend to rev higher then the larger diesel engines I think my best bet is to find a program from a 6.7 cummins or similar size motor.

Was there ever a allison 3000 series that was paired to a smaller diesel?

My big block can make power up to 6000 rpm if I want it to, however a more reasonable shift point would be 2800-3200, do you have any suggestions on where to start looking for a base program that would shift on the high(ish) rpm?

The other question I have is what inputs does the transmission need from the engine, I assume it needs a throttle position sensor, beyond that I'm not sure what else?
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Old 12-06-2022, 07:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serp View Post
Because the smaller diesel engines tend to rev higher then the larger diesel engines I think my best bet is to find a program from a 6.7 cummins or similar size motor.

Was there ever a allison 3000 series that was paired to a smaller diesel?

My big block can make power up to 6000 rpm if I want it to, however a more reasonable shift point would be 2800-3200, do you have any suggestions on where to start looking for a base program that would shift on the high(ish) rpm?

The other question I have is what inputs does the transmission need from the engine, I assume it needs a throttle position sensor, beyond that I'm not sure what else?

I dont know of any allison that will want any more than 4000 RPM input.. Most medium duty diesel engines in stock form run a max shift point of 2600 - 2800 RPM..



the gasoline allison shift programs would allow around a 3500-3800 max RPM shift..



if you buy a pre-made TCM.. ie a straight TCM out of a donor vehicle, it will be stamped with the transmission series.. the RPM and throttle type.



if you talk to the folks at one of the companies which sells parts for doing custom swaps (ive personally dealt with CAC and Jason (transmissiontuner).. they have TCMs with preprogrammed patterns at various RPM levels.. most diesel ones are for 2700.. Jason will build you whatever you want but he may already have a gasoline program..


Tuning hours are expensive so I found it more economical for me to buy a tuneable TCM from jason and then bought EFIlive so I could make my own tables. .that method proved VERY useful in my case as ive tweaked my engine's power levels and soon will be re-gearing the rear end ill need to re-map my tables..



CAC sells a TCM package and throttle box which allows you to have Tap shift (at least on the 6 speed 1000/2000.. essentially giving you the same control a 3000 series has native.. I bought that psckage and then never used it..



much of the equipment sold out in the world is for 4th gen allison controls (6 speed on the 1000/2000).. whereas many donor allison 3000s and their TCMs are 3rd gen (pre 06)..



I briefly looked at a 3000 swap in my bus but when I quickly learned that a 1000 could be built to handle way more than id ever throw at it from a 7.3 I went that direction just because of much more aftermarket Swap support..
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Old 12-06-2022, 04:20 PM   #7
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@ Mr Kid, What ratio changes are you making?

Do you mind sharing the how and why?
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Old 12-06-2022, 04:35 PM   #8
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Have any suggestions on what controller type/model I should be looking for? Was there ever a 5.9 or 6.7 that was ever equipped with 3000 from the factory?

It looks like the newer Birds do have a 3000 series as a option with the 6.7, note sure about the older ones, It would need to be a 4th Gen TCM
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Old 12-06-2022, 05:27 PM   #9
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Yes both could be equipped with a 3000 series.. I know for sure the ISB was. I’m not sure if the 12 valve was or not and of course the 6.7 , the newer 6.7 will be 5th Gen controls where shiftsense is likely required..

SEM didn’t exist on the 5.9 so no worries .. SEM is the engine reducing power during shifts which allows much higher HP and torque rating for the transmissions.. trans are under most stress during actual shifts thus why SEM (shift energy management) also called shiftsense by Allison was developed.. you can get TCMs easily without it enabled ..

To the one asking about me re-gearing ..
My bus has 225/70R19.5 tires and was already a 70MPh bus before I swapped in a double overdrive trans.. the 3.54 rear is way too tall.. I have to play fancy with my shift points to keep from lugging the engine … lugging is the easiest way to tear out your mains and rod bearings..

My 6th is pretty much unusable so I want to gear down to a 4.10 or maybe even a 4.30 to increase my RPM and make 6th gear relevant. It will reduce lugging esp on hills .. I’ll do it by simply swapping out my 3rd member in the rear axle for one with the ratio I want.. it’s not a hard job.. pull the axles, drop the driveshaft, and roll the punkin out.. don’t even haven’t take off the wheels.
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Old 12-07-2022, 05:36 PM   #10
Mini-Skoolie
 
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A little more information I called the local allison distributor, I was told my 3200SP was made for a dt466 engine they told me in order to get a base calibration I would need a cin #, I also don't have a ecu, so I need a ecu and a cin#

If I give them the vin for this 2007 dt466 should the corresponding vin/cin work with the transmission I have?

https://www.mylittlesalesman.com/200...0sp_p-10760122

I assume whatever ecu I get will have a cin # somewhere on the ecu label?

Based on this what would you recommend?
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Old 12-07-2022, 09:54 PM   #11
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so you will need an "ecu" TCM in allison-speak, and the wiring harness to match the trans and TCM..


was the donor truck a 2007 ? if the VIN you are giving is from where it came from then the CIN and TCM part numbers would match your transmission...


if you are just surfing the web looking then you could end up mismatched..



have you got the harness? if you are missing the harness and the TCM (those are literally as if not more expensive than the trans itself)..


if you have the harness you can look at the type of connectors to know which generation TCM..


if its a 2007 truck id expect to see something like an A41 or A51 / A53 model TCM (4th gen).. and the shift controller pad if it matches that same year would be a 2 digit display as opposed to the 3rd gen single digit display..


lots of unknowns here
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Old 12-07-2022, 10:02 PM   #12
Mini-Skoolie
 
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I have no idea what vehicle my transmission was taken out of, this number was on the front of the t.c. 29535593 and was the number that I gave to the Dealer to identify what ecu to use. I forgot to add the dealer told me it was a gen 4.

I did a Google search for dt466+allison 3200SP, and this was the only thing that I get get a vin from.

https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f33/a...tml#post484902
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Old 12-08-2022, 07:29 AM   #13
Bus Geek
 
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Chassis: International 3800
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Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
you can look the serial number of the transmission itself up on "my allison" which will tell you more about it..


Gen 4 is good!.. all of your components need to match, trans, TCM, Harness, and the shift pad.. im not sure if you can get any of those other pieces from the same vehicle.. or possibly from the link you sent or not.. you should be able to interchange gen 4 TCMs and transmissions.. meaning the internals are the same.. a PTO would be a different configuration so youd want to make sure the CIN you use is from a bus or other truck that didnt have a lot of inhibit inputs..



for imstance if the CIN is available for that RE300 bus then id go with that.. biut any TCM built and set up by an allison dealer itself you wont be able to alter the shift schedule.. you will have manual control as all 3000s offered the ability for "max gear" setting..
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Old 12-08-2022, 07:40 AM   #14
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Let's say the I source a tcm, will there need to be some kind of electrical interface with the engine?

Is the speed of the engines crankshaft all that is required to determine when to shift?

https://www.allisontransmission.com/...-allison-basic

I'm not sure which one of these links to use to do model info s/n lookup
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Old 12-08-2022, 07:55 AM   #15
Bus Geek
 
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if your engine is not a J1939 electronic then you'll need a throttle box.. pretty much All of the Gen4 TCMs will be J1939 data-link for throttle input.. I know CAC makes a box which will take a mechanical throttle input and turn it into J1939 data...


essentially it has a cable which pulls out and activates a sensor which tells the transmission how far down on the pedal you are.. you would connect this to your mechanical engine throttle.. make a plate and a hold anchor for the cable so you can get the correct "geometry".. meaning the throttle curve you wish to send your transmission.. and most of all that when you floor the engine, the trans sees 100% throttle.


aftermarket 4th gen TCMs built by CAC, Jason, PCM etc can be set up to have a secondary CAN2 port programmed for "OBD2" (standard car) compliant data-stream so you can use a regular scan tool like a Launch CRP129, etc to read the throttle position while you are setting it up.. this is paramount if you dont have access to allison DOC and a nexiq device...



Now if you are using an electronic Diesel like an IH DT466E, T444E, or Cat 3126, C7, Cummins ISB, ISC (later versions).. then you'll have Native J1939 data from your engine ECM and can simply connect to the J1939 pins on your TCM and go.



again you need the FULL HARNESS of wires for your setup... the best way to get one is find a donor truck / Bus to pull one from.. you can have a new one made but will cost you likely a grand or more as they are complex and use expensive connectors..



you will also need the Allison 3000 Gen 4 Shift pad (the pushbutton shifter control from a Gen4 vehicle).. if you pull from a rear engine bus you get the extra long wiring to go from the rear to front for the shifter pad.. if thats not necessary then you can pull from conventional or front engine...
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:05 AM   #16
Mini-Skoolie
 
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I am using a custom programable engine ecu which has 2 dbw outputs, so one can go to the throttle the other can go to the transmission,

Is there a link to this CAC J1939 converter?

Fyi, I'm using a gas engine not diesel
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:16 AM   #17
Bus Geek
 
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got it on the gas engine.. it will be tougher to set up a gas engine as SAE2, i honestly dont know of any which were SAE2.. the allison 3000 series is an SAE2 bell-housing.. all of the Gas engines in medium duty im familiar with ran SAE3 bells.. doesnt mean the ydidnt exist.. i just dont know of any..



have you found a flywheel housing which is SAE2 to bolt that 3000 series up?



here is what it looks like.. best idea is to call them and talk to them...

https://www.caconversions.com/cac-th...osition-sensor
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Old 12-08-2022, 08:42 AM   #18
Mini-Skoolie
 
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The housing is taken care of, I found a sae 3 to sae 2 adapter ring, it's from an old 90s top kick I think
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Old 12-08-2022, 09:21 AM   #19
Bus Geek
 
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wow thats cool.. ive never seen a 3-2 adapter ring... 2-3 are all over the place as most diesels were the larger 2 and adapted down to 3 for the AT545 transmissions which were commonplace in busses and smaller trucks..
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Old 12-08-2022, 02:18 PM   #20
Mini-Skoolie
 
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https://www.allisontransmission.com/...-allison-basic

I'm not sure which one of these links to use to do model info s/n lookup
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