Best (and Worst) to Look for In a Bus?

[Sevier]

Originally Posted by Maligator.

May I ask everyone, assuming all else created equal, would you go for a 1995 International Genesis w a DT408 or Cummins 5.9 w a 545 and air brakes over, for example, a 2009 DTMaxForce w air brakes and an Alison 2500, or a DT444 w air brakes and a 545?

Clarification, do you mean T444 on the last bus or is that a typo and really DT466? If so, what year?[/QUOTE]

Oops - T444E, and they are 2001, 2002, and 1998's.

[Sevier]

Originally Posted by Maligator.

Agree 100% with Cheesewagon, NO to the maxxforce for me. I'd get the DT466 with the AT545 over the MF. You can learn how to drive the AT545 and as Cheese said, the rear gears will play a big role with that Tranny. Just be prepared to drive it carefully and slowly in the mountains, you can also get an add-on cooler for it so it doesn't burn out. Also if you plan on replacing it in the future and you know it's just there for a couple years it's very livable. Many people on here have and live with that tranny.

Again, agreeing with Cheese, my bus has an older "granny gear" 5 speed, my 1st gear will rip a house off its foundations but tops out at 5 MPH ROFL!! Get a 7 speed if you find a manual, which IMO a manual is solid and desirable but I'm a one off kinda guy.

Here's a little perspective on length, my girlfriend wanted 26-32 feet so when I picked a 35 footer(sight unseen to her) she wasn't happy with me. Now that she's been in it and understands that it will fit more of everything(batteries, solar, water, CLOSET space ROFL) she's totally sold. And let's be logical for a second, 3-6 extra feet is only 10-20% longer. They engineer these to be drivable, so the difference between driving a 30 foot bus vs let's say a 35 footer like mine is negligible at best(still going to take corners the same way). Parking will likely be the biggest challenge and with help or cameras installed it's pretty easy. Go to an empty mall parking lot and practice parking for a couple hours.

I would pose a solution to your discomfort with the extra length(you aren't scared, just unfamiliar, fear comes from lack of understanding, nothing more). Why don't you pose as a potential buyer for several different lengths, engine and transmission buses? A dealer has dealer plates and will ride along and coach you so you will be fine for test drives my man. Go test drive a 28 foot cummins 5.9 lets say, see how it handles, accelerates etc. Go test drive a 36 foot DT466, same parameters. You get where I'm going with this, before you decide have a go at driving a couple of these platforms, I promise it will help you make the decision and you won't be as apprehensive.

I'm assuming as you build out your bus you are planning on back up camera and maybe side cameras? If not, you should put that in your build, it will help you feel at ease with any size bus.

Also, what's the transmission, mileage and brakes on the DT408?

Thankyou, super helpful, and I completely agree, fear is simply a lack of knowledge. Id like to maintain an appropriate dose of healthy fear when buying, owning, and driving a bus, and I think I just need some experience to get there.

Yes, planning on cameras.

Worried about length because of national park limits.

So far, I've complied a spreadsheet of 39 options, but they generally fall within a few categories. Some have an unknown AT, so just have to wait for sellers to get back to me. Almost all are International or TC2000. I've stuck w pre electrical/emissions, most have mileage around 150K-200K, and the sizes range from 28'-36' (some dog and some flat, which changes ratio of useable interior foot per exterior foot).

1) The DT408 was a 1995, 144K, w AT545, air brakes, seller is so confident in its quality he wants to drive it to DC from TX
2) Then 1991-1999 Cummins 5.2 w unknown AT (so assuming 545), air brakes
3) 2003 CAT 3126 w AT2000, air brakes
4) 1998-2000 T444E w unknown AT (so assuming 545), air brakes
5) 1991-2003 DT466 w unknown AT, air brakes
6) 1998 DT466 w MT646 but Hydrolic brakes :/
7) 2000 DT466 w Alison 2000 or 3000, air brakes

And found one beautiful 1987 International BB w a DT466 and 136K miles, but its a dog nose 47 seater and by my estimations, that makes it 40' long

(btw, I'm a lady, not a man

[Sevier]

Thankyou, super helpful, and I completely agree, fear is simply a lack of knowledge. Id like to maintain an appropriate dose of healthy fear when buying, owning, and driving a bus, and I think I just need some experience to get there.

Yes, planning on cameras.

Worried about length because of national park limits.

So far, I've complied a spreadsheet of 39 options, but they generally fall within a few categories. Some have an unknown AT, so just have to wait for sellers to get back to me. Almost all are International or TC2000. I've stuck w pre electrical/emissions, most have mileage around 150K-200K, and the sizes range from 28'-36' (some dog and some flat, which changes ratio of useable interior foot per exterior foot).

1) The DT408 was a 1995, 144K, w AT545, air brakes, seller is so confident in its quality he wants to drive it to DC from TX
2) Then 1991-1999 Cummins 5.2 w unknown AT (so assuming 545), air brakes
3) 2003 CAT 3126 w AT2000, air brakes
4) 1998-2000 T444E w unknown AT (so assuming 545), air brakes
5) 1991-2003 DT466 w unknown AT, air brakes
6) 1998 DT466 w MT646 but Hydrolic brakes :/
7) 2000 DT466 w Alison 2000 or 3000, air brakes

And found one beautiful 1987 International BB w a DT466 and 136K miles, but its a dog nose 47 seater and by my estimations, that makes it 40' long

(btw, I'm a lady, not a man

[Maligator.]

Number 7 looks like a big winner to me, number 6 looks good too if you are ok with hydraulic brakes.
"Fear" and "Scared" are words that will shape your character when used too often, perhaps you should begin substituting a "healthy dose of Respect" or "Caution", both of those attributes are appropriate when in the situation you are in. I respect a woman taking the lead on a venture like this, please don't misinterpret my attempt to empower you as anything other than that. Success begins in the mind and positive self talk is the catalyst for all success IMO. As a Nurse, I have no real heavy mechanic or construction experience but I can do anything I set my mind to, I've spent countless free time hours reading and going to classes, you can do this, have patience and seek to understand, your path will reveal itself.

Also, 47 seats is going to be alot shorter than 40 feet i believe. A better guide to estimating length is the number of windows the bus has. There are threads on calculating length using number of windows. If 2 butts per seat, that bus would be 11 or 12 rows long (47/2 butts=23/2 sides of the bus=11 or 12 guestimated rows) which is gonna be close to what you want, sometimes they use 3 butts per seat to calculate seating then you'll have 7 or 8 rows, even shorter. Ask for pics and more information on the 47 seat bus, it might be your winner.

[Sevier]

Originally Posted by Maligator.

Number 7 looks like a big winner to me, number 6 looks good too if you are ok with hydraulic brakes.
"Fear" and "Scared" are words that will shape your character when used too often, perhaps you should begin substituting a "healthy dose of Respect" or "Caution", both of those attributes are appropriate when in the situation you are in. I respect a woman taking the lead on a venture like this, please don't misinterpret my attempt to empower you as anything other than that. Success begins in the mind and positive self talk is the catalyst for all success IMO. As a Nurse, I have no real heavy mechanic or construction experience but I can do anything I set my mind to, I've spent countless free time hours reading and going to classes, you can do this, have patience and seek to understand, your path will reveal itself.

Also, 47 seats is going to be alot shorter than 40 feet i believe. A better guide to estimating length is the number of windows the bus has. There are threads on calculating length using number of windows. If 2 butts per seat, that bus would be 11 or 12 rows long (47/2 butts=23/2 sides of the bus=11 or 12 guestimated rows) which is gonna be close to what you want, sometimes they use 3 butts per seat to calculate seating then you'll have 7 or 8 rows, even shorter. Ask for pics and more information on the 47 seat bus, it might be your winner.

Definitely didnt misinterpret anything - I'm a feminist in that I think men and women are equal and thats that, no more fuss need be made about it (on my end, of course, so grateful for all those women, past, present, and future, who advocate for change).

And such a good reminder about language - the body listens to what we tell it, quite literally. Of course, most healing traditions have know this for thousands of years, but recently, Western Med is getting on board too - some incredible studies, most recent one I read out of Harvard, about how powerfully our beliefs (and how we frame those beliefs with our vocabulary) changes our bodies. As a CM practitioner, I am rigorous with my patients int he treatment room to learn to identify the difference between healthy, empowering and heartful fear verses not. I however, do not always myself

Thanks for the feedback re the buses, will aim then for those combos, but otherwise, if we can nor secure one of those ideal buses, the others werent so bad?

[Maligator.]

One of the most freeing paradigm shifts a person can have is that gender, race, sexual and religious preference do not matter. The world will be an amazing place if and when the majority of people realize that we are all created beautifully, equally and wonderfully. Having said that, I agree, no more fuss need be made.

I've been a Nurse for close to 15 years now, suffered my share of injury and used my share of medications and followed conventional medicine in my own life but Mindfulness, meditation, diet and yoga have had more of an impact on my diseases and handicaps than any treatment I've given through my "conventional medical wisdom".

OK so onto the buses, without knowing a whole lot more about each of them, I'd say that number 1,3,5,6 and 7 seem like solid choices to pursue more. I don't think cummins 5.9 or T444s are bad by any stretch and for a shorter bus they may suit you just fine, however I do believe that there are better choices. The most important thing is that you do thorough research on whichever bus you want to buy before you commit. If you can get PDFs of service records, that's a huge win, regular maintenance and a clear history are IMO the biggest indicators of how a bus will be for you in the future. The speedometer can be tampered with, so miles may not be accurate. The lower the Engine hours, regular oil changes and other maintenance milestones being performed will help take a bus beyond that 500,000 mile mark, conversely, running a bus "Hot" for too long or too many times will cost you dearly later on. Missing a few oil changes can lead to big problems, high engine hours but low mileage isn't a good sign either.

If I were in your position right now, I would reach out to 3-5 of those bus owners and ask for copies of the service records. Ask for pictures of the odometer, engine hours and VIN. If a seller doesn't want to provide those, there could be an ugly reason. Once you get what you can, review the records, look the bus up by it's VIN, whether you call the manufacturer or use the online VIN portals, you can glean valuable information about the buses original disposition. With this information you can decide about each buses "merits" and also potentially be able to make a lower offer on the bus if there are "bargaining points" you discover like discrepancies between odometer and engine hours or several missed maintenance items.

I would ask for pictures of the tire tread, tire size, when the batteries were last changed, last oil change, last coolant flush and change. Pictures of the belts and hoses were something I took on the buses I was considering. All of which can help you avoid a bad egg or help you bargain a lower price. If the bus will need new batteries, new belts and new hoses I wouldn't disregard it but I would pay less for it. Same goes for tires, if you will need to pay 1500-3000 for new tires, then anyone who buys the bus will need to do that. Let them know you're willing to buy it, but that you know you're gonna be replacing items X, Y and Z so you're gonna offer less money because your out of pocket to get it safely home will be higher.

For instance my bus came from a school district where it was used for the band and sports team going to other schools or events so it wasn't in "regular service". The seller provided me with good service records and since the batteries were old and the last oil change was missed because the bus was out of service I was able to negotiate a lower purchase price, complimentary oil change and 1 new battery. If I hadn't done my research, I'd have paid full price then had to pay for an oil change and battery before I drove it 3000 miles. Hope this helps!

[CHEESE_WAGON]

As to maintenance records, I would only expect these to be available from a government auction -- they are rarely passed on by flippers.

[Maligator.]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

As to maintenance records, I would only expect these to be available from a government auction -- they are rarely passed on by flippers.

True but I got the buses original service district from the seller and called the school district myself, took about 90 minutes but I got about 8 years of records they still had. Point being don't trust others information, ferret out your own even if it takes a few calls or emails and another day or two before you buy. You may not get records but if you still like the bus at least you tried to be as informed as you could.

[Sevier]

Originally Posted by Maligator.

One of the most freeing paradigm shifts a person can have is that gender, race, sexual and religious preference do not matter. The world will be an amazing place if and when the majority of people realize that we are all created beautifully, equally and wonderfully. Having said that, I agree, no more fuss need be made.

I've been a Nurse for close to 15 years now, suffered my share of injury and used my share of medications and followed conventional medicine in my own life but Mindfulness, meditation, diet and yoga have had more of an impact on my diseases and handicaps than any treatment I've given through my "conventional medical wisdom".

OK so onto the buses, without knowing a whole lot more about each of them, I'd say that number 1,3,5,6 and 7 seem like solid choices to pursue more. I don't think cummins 5.9 or T444s are bad by any stretch and for a shorter bus they may suit you just fine, however I do believe that there are better choices. The most important thing is that you do thorough research on whichever bus you want to buy before you commit. If you can get PDFs of service records, that's a huge win, regular maintenance and a clear history are IMO the biggest indicators of how a bus will be for you in the future. The speedometer can be tampered with, so miles may not be accurate. The lower the Engine hours, regular oil changes and other maintenance milestones being performed will help take a bus beyond that 500,000 mile mark, conversely, running a bus "Hot" for too long or too many times will cost you dearly later on. Missing a few oil changes can lead to big problems, high engine hours but low mileage isn't a good sign either.

If I were in your position right now, I would reach out to 3-5 of those bus owners and ask for copies of the service records. Ask for pictures of the odometer, engine hours and VIN. If a seller doesn't want to provide those, there could be an ugly reason. Once you get what you can, review the records, look the bus up by it's VIN, whether you call the manufacturer or use the online VIN portals, you can glean valuable information about the buses original disposition. With this information you can decide about each buses "merits" and also potentially be able to make a lower offer on the bus if there are "bargaining points" you discover like discrepancies between odometer and engine hours or several missed maintenance items.

I would ask for pictures of the tire tread, tire size, when the batteries were last changed, last oil change, last coolant flush and change. Pictures of the belts and hoses were something I took on the buses I was considering. All of which can help you avoid a bad egg or help you bargain a lower price. If the bus will need new batteries, new belts and new hoses I wouldn't disregard it but I would pay less for it. Same goes for tires, if you will need to pay 1500-3000 for new tires, then anyone who buys the bus will need to do that. Let them know you're willing to buy it, but that you know you're gonna be replacing items X, Y and Z so you're gonna offer less money because your out of pocket to get it safely home will be higher.

For instance my bus came from a school district where it was used for the band and sports team going to other schools or events so it wasn't in "regular service". The seller provided me with good service records and since the batteries were old and the last oil change was missed because the bus was out of service I was able to negotiate a lower purchase price, complimentary oil change and 1 new battery. If I hadn't done my research, I'd have paid full price then had to pay for an oil change and battery before I drove it 3000 miles. Hope this helps!

Yes, while I acknowledge Western Medicine is remarkable, and saves lives, so is and does ancient holistic modalities - approaching the human body very differently then modern medicine - emphasizing, among many things, a deeply nuanced understanding of one's self and what contributes to dis-ease, so that one neednt medicate, but instead, learn to heal.

Bus stuff - so helpful! Thankyou! I've been hoping for a government bus, its just really difficult to get to the bus to view it before the auction ends. I dont really trust myself to conduct a good inspection, so hoping I can find a mechanic in the area of whatever bus I narrow in on to inspect it with me. As someone else posted - spending $200 for an inspection is far less costly then an $1800 tow and repairs!

I actually have been asking for some of those things, pictures and such, and most sellers say they dont have. Some dont even know what kind of transmission is in the bus, which shocks me - I would never expect someone to buy my product if I cant tell them what it even is!

[peteg59]

Most times when a bus is being put up for auction, it has been out of service for months if not longer.
Often times once a bus is stricken from a municipal roster, the maintenance records are disposed of. Especially if paper records are how they roll.

So its hit or miss on how lucky one gets in having the bus's lifelong maintenance records available at time of purchase.

That's why it's so important to thoroughly check out the mechanicals before pulling the trigger on any prospective purchase whether the records are available, or not...

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by Sevier

As someone else posted - spending $200 for an inspection is far less costly then an $1800 tow and repairs!

That's if you're lucky. Far more expensive repairs await if problems are not known, ascertained, and addressed.

Case in point. I transported a '99 Blue Bird from IA to the Northeast for its new owners this summer. All was well until the engine started hiccuping about 1200 miles into a 1700-mile trip.

Turned out this particular Blue Bird had the 8.3 Cummins engine, that while a reasonably good engine, is known for camshaft wear-related problems at around 9,000 hours of runtime. It just so happened that it was on the cusp of this, and I was unaware of this issue beforehand. Fortunately, I knew enough to stop driving when it started losing power and misfiring.

Ultimately, the tow was around $900, and the camshaft replacement (at an authorized Cummins dealer with factory-certified parts, factory-trained technicians and warrantied work) ran somewhere around $8000, if memory serves. They still got a good bus, but with a rather massive repair investment up-front that probably could have been done a good bit cheaper if it could have been planned for, or taken care of beforehand.

So, yes, an ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure, but it's worth a ton of cure with a bus. That's why I push pre-trip inspections. Just my $0.02.

[Sevier]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

That's if you're lucky. Far more expensive repairs await if problems are not known, ascertained, and addressed.

Case in point. I transported a '99 Blue Bird from IA to the Northeast for its new owners this summer. All was well until the engine started hiccuping about 1200 miles into a 1700-mile trip.

Turned out this particular Blue Bird had the 8.3 Cummins engine, that while a reasonably good engine, is known for camshaft wear-related problems at around 9,000 hours of runtime. It just so happened that it was on the cusp of this, and I was unaware of this issue beforehand. Fortunately, I knew enough to stop driving when it started losing power and misfiring.

Ultimately, the tow was around $900, and the camshaft replacement (at an authorized Cummins dealer with factory-certified parts, factory-trained technicians and warrantied work) ran somewhere around $8000, if memory serves. They still got a good bus, but with a rather massive repair investment up-front that probably could have been done a good bit cheaper if it could have been planned for, or taken care of beforehand.

So, yes, an ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure, but it's worth a ton of cure with a bus. That's why I push pre-trip inspections. Just my $0.02.

Oh my god, $8,000?? And that could have been avoided if they have authorized a pre-trip inspection?

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by Sevier

Oh my god, $8,000?? And that could have been avoided if they have authorized a pre-trip inspection?

Well, pre-trip inspection in and of itself wouldn't have prevented THAT particular situation, but knowing the hours on the engine would have been a good indicator that it was coming. Which would have allowed for having it addressed prior through less expensive means. Dealer-authorized labor is expensive, and so are tow bills. A local diesel shop in Council Bluffs where I picked this thing up might have done the job for half that, or less, without a tow bill involved, because it could have been driven in, and driven out.

Unfortunately, this bus neither had an hour meter on the tachometer or the remote start console in the engine bay, so I had no way of knowing myself. And I didn't even know this to be an issue before it happened. But this is why I say finding out the engine hours is important, it can help soften the blow of such a situation.

And don't take this as, "OOGA-BOOGA... 8.3 BAD... AVOID..." I'm actually quite impressed with that 8.3 engine. It likely was on the cusp of this when I left Iowa and it made it 1200 miles with a cylinder slowing losing power, and still got 7.5 mpg with a car in tow running 70 mph. I usually don't drive much over 63, but the new owners knew the bus could run 70, and I wanted to be able to tell them the difference in fuel consumption between 60 and 70.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Sevier

Oh my god, $8,000?? And that could have been avoided if they have authorized a pre-trip inspection?

When things go wrong on a bus, they can be extremely expensive to repair. Any bus you buy is going to have some number of parts or systems that are close to the end of their service lives. It's kind of a crapshoot as to how many there are, when you're going to hit them, and how much it's going to cost. When I see people buying a bus when they only have a $5K to $10K (or less!) total budget for the conversion, I want to cry. They're one trip to the mechanics away from a catastrophic ending.

[musigenesis]

Bus #3 (with the CAT3126) is good.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

When I see people buying a bus when they only have a $5K to $10K (or less!) total budget for the conversion, I want to cry. They're one trip to the mechanics away from a catastrophic ending.

Exactly the reason I'm on the fence. My claim is in the process of settling, and I won't have half the budget I would like. Also, my health issues put me in a bad position from the DIY perspective, meaning the budget won't go nearly as far without a lot of help.

[EastCoastCB]

I like #3. The FS65 is a good chassis. The 3126 is pretty damn solid and easy to service. And its got OD.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

Exactly the reason I'm on the fence. My claim is in the process of settling, and I won't have half the budget I would like. Also, my health issues put me in a bad position from the DIY perspective, meaning the budget won't go nearly as far without a lot of help.

FWIW I think the biggest budget threat is to people like me who know bupkis about the mechanical side of buses. We are completely at the mercy of mechanics who, even if they're not consciously trying to screw us over, are used to dealing with businesses for whom multi-thousand dollar bills are routine and they may not even consider cheaper alternatives.

I just paid close to $3K for a new HPOP and it seems at least possible that nothing that expensive was truly required to fix my problem. Someone with your background and knowledge is not as likely to get re-plumbed by a mechanic even if you can't do the work yourself any longer.

Also, I know if you lived near me, I would happily trade work on your bus for knowledge transfer on my bus (like how to turn my heat back on, which would be useful to have for winter here). There's a lot of clueless young skoolier types who would do well to make a similar arrangement with you.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

FWIW I think the biggest budget threat is to people like me who know bupkis about the mechanical side of buses. We are completely at the mercy of mechanics who, even if they're not consciously trying to screw us over, are used to dealing with businesses for whom multi-thousand dollar bills are routine and they may not even consider cheaper alternatives.

I just paid close to $3K for a new HPOP and it seems at least possible that nothing that expensive was truly required to fix my problem. Someone with your background and knowledge is not as likely to get re-plumbed by a mechanic even if you can't do the work yourself any longer.

Also, I know if you lived near me, I would happily trade work on your bus for knowledge transfer on my bus (like how to turn my heat back on, which would be useful to have for winter here). There's a lot of clueless young skoolier types who would do well to make a similar arrangement with you.

I've not done one, but I've watched videos and talked to folks who've done them and an hpop is something a lot of folks could probably do themselves.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Also, I know if you lived near me, I would happily trade work on your bus for knowledge transfer on my bus (like how to turn my heat back on, which would be useful to have for winter here). There's a lot of clueless young skoolier types who would do well to make a similar arrangement with you.

Caplansail's IC transport is taking me through Lancaster briefly before final destination to upstate NY. Perhaps I could arrange a short layover there if you can meet up, and I could possibly help figure that out, if you can swing bringing your rig that far.