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Old 08-06-2021, 04:50 PM   #1
Bus Nut
 
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Location: Auburn, WA
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Broke Down Yakima, WA.

I'm broken down and Yakima Washington. I'm going to put the whole story out with all the testing so please read this carefully before suggesting things that I've already done. That said, any help beyond what I've already done is appreciated.

If you are in the Yakima area or know somebody who is that could be helpful, it would be appreciated. I'm at the McDonald's on South 1st Street.

After about 3 years of converting my bus, I left on Thursday from the Seattle area to head to Flagstaff Arizona to see Ross and hopefully Michael, if he could make it up from New Mexico.

I have had only one major mechanical issue with my bus and it was an electrical gremlin a few months ago. That turned out to be a broken lead on a very small diode. We replace the diode and everything has worked fine ever since, until Tuesday.

On Tuesday the bus again did the same thing that it happened with the diode the first time. It was a no crank no start issue. The wait to start light would not come on and the water in fuel light would come on. I thought okay it's just a diode issue again. But it wasn't, we replaced the start relay and the bus started right up I drove it home. Over the next couple of days I started and stopped the bus, it worked fine and on Thursday I took off for my trip. I got to Yakima, Washington, and had my tire pressures checked and pulled in to get something to eat. When I came out and started the bus it started but died 20 ft later. Same symptoms, the wait to start light does not appear in the water and fuel light comes on.

I have been working with Ross, Michael and my friend who has helped me build the bus all day yesterday in troubleshooting.

Yesterday, I checked the start, ecm, ignition and crank relays, all of which toned across their power and ground pins, and toned across their switch pins went in 12 volts will applied. I tested the ECM and ignition relay and they both received 12 volt.

I checked the diodes, see attached picture, and they tested at 500 ohms resistance.

All my blade fuses in the front rear panel are good.

We tried to jump the starter solenoid unsuccessfully yesterday, but today it cranked, but no indication of starting. I then jumped my start relay and it cranked but no indication of starting.

I again tested the diodes this morning and the diode we did NOT replace suddenly showed only 88 ohms no matter which side I put the meter terminals on. I tested this several times, that's important as you'll soon read.

I called around to many plus places this morning trying to get a mobile mechanic, but it's Friday, and they either don't work on buses for they don't have mobile or they are too busy.

I seems I'm stuck on my own at least through the weekend and started to search for a diode locally. I checked with RV places, solar places, electronic repair places and while all very nice people, nobody had a diode. Finally I got a lead to Yakima batteries, who apparently work on RVs all the time and as they said we have lots of diodes. So my first Uber ride to Yakima batteries to get diodes. I got back and I was in the process of changing the diode that tested at 88 ohms. Suddenly, it's testing at 500 ohms?? I double checked it with a second meter, and it's testing fine.

One mobile mechanic took a few minutes to listen to my story, and he said that the wait to start and water and fuel lights on two different circuits, and that the ECM is not getting power. This would make sense because as I was coming into Yakima I started getting spurts of the wait to start light flashing and one time the water and fuel light came on. So some kind of a electrical interruption must have been starting to happen. This makes sense of why it will crank but not start.

I also did thorough testing of my front ignition switch and it tones properly in all connections when in accessory mode or crank mode. I have a extra ignition switch, and I tried it and it did not help. I do not have a rear engine ignition networks, so any testing to assure I'm getting 12 volts requires two people.

I most likely have a starter solenoid / starter intermittent issue that needs to be addressed, but right now, getting power to the ECM appears to be the main challenge.

I may have to have it towed, but because you have to take the drive shaft off to do that, I'm trying to avoid that.

Again, any assistance is appreciated.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20210805_143603179.jpg (258.0 KB, 17 views)

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Old 08-06-2021, 09:16 PM   #2
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You have a 2000 IC with the t44e, have you pulled codes?

I have a 2004 IC with a t444e. I found a diagnostic manual for hard start/no start that shows troubleshooting. I'll PM you my # to call.

Edited to add:

I sent you the title of the manual in my PM. With that you can download it which is how I got it. I included my # in the PM in case you feel the need to call.
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:22 AM   #3
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More than anything, I'm adding this to bump the thread back up. I feel bad for Steve, stuck and unable to start his bus in Yakima. He's called a ton of local mechanics and nobody's willing/able to help him out. At least he's near a Home Depot and food and he's got his portable home with a bed and A/C. I give him credit for digging in and learning, even through this challenge...he keeps on keeping on!
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:01 AM   #4
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I got a PM from Steve that came in at 12:41AM this morning. He said he thinks the problem is related to coolant level. He said he'd try that and see what happens. I assume he'll fill us in when he has something to tell us.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:23 AM   #5
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Dang.

Hoping for a good, easy, and cheap resolution to this. Wish I were a lot closer than Kentucky or knew the first ting about diesels.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:49 AM   #6
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Good luck, man. Sorry I know nothing about this stuff.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
I'm broken down and Yakima Washington. I'm going to put the whole story out with all the testing so please read this carefully before suggesting things that I've already done. That said, any help beyond what I've already done is appreciated.

If you are in the Yakima area or know somebody who is that could be helpful, it would be appreciated. I'm at the McDonald's on South 1st Street.

After about 3 years of converting my bus, I left on Thursday from the Seattle area to head to Flagstaff Arizona to see Ross and hopefully Michael, if he could make it up from New Mexico.

I have had only one major mechanical issue with my bus and it was an electrical gremlin a few months ago. That turned out to be a broken lead on a very small diode. We replace the diode and everything has worked fine ever since, until Tuesday.

On Tuesday the bus again did the same thing that it happened with the diode the first time. It was a no crank no start issue. The wait to start light would not come on and the water in fuel light would come on. I thought okay it's just a diode issue again. But it wasn't, we replaced the start relay and the bus started right up I drove it home. Over the next couple of days I started and stopped the bus, it worked fine and on Thursday I took off for my trip. I got to Yakima, Washington, and had my tire pressures checked and pulled in to get something to eat. When I came out and started the bus it started but died 20 ft later. Same symptoms, the wait to start light does not appear in the water and fuel light comes on.

I have been working with Ross, Michael and my friend who has helped me build the bus all day yesterday in troubleshooting.

Yesterday, I checked the start, ecm, ignition and crank relays, all of which toned across their power and ground pins, and toned across their switch pins went in 12 volts will applied. I tested the ECM and ignition relay and they both received 12 volt.

I checked the diodes, see attached picture, and they tested at 500 ohms resistance.

All my blade fuses in the front rear panel are good.

We tried to jump the starter solenoid unsuccessfully yesterday, but today it cranked, but no indication of starting. I then jumped my start relay and it cranked but no indication of starting.

I again tested the diodes this morning and the diode we did NOT replace suddenly showed only 88 ohms no matter which side I put the meter terminals on. I tested this several times, that's important as you'll soon read.

I called around to many plus places this morning trying to get a mobile mechanic, but it's Friday, and they either don't work on buses for they don't have mobile or they are too busy.

I seems I'm stuck on my own at least through the weekend and started to search for a diode locally. I checked with RV places, solar places, electronic repair places and while all very nice people, nobody had a diode. Finally I got a lead to Yakima batteries, who apparently work on RVs all the time and as they said we have lots of diodes. So my first Uber ride to Yakima batteries to get diodes. I got back and I was in the process of changing the diode that tested at 88 ohms. Suddenly, it's testing at 500 ohms?? I double checked it with a second meter, and it's testing fine.

One mobile mechanic took a few minutes to listen to my story, and he said that the wait to start and water and fuel lights on two different circuits, and that the ECM is not getting power. This would make sense because as I was coming into Yakima I started getting spurts of the wait to start light flashing and one time the water and fuel light came on. So some kind of a electrical interruption must have been starting to happen. This makes sense of why it will crank but not start.

I also did thorough testing of my front ignition switch and it tones properly in all connections when in accessory mode or crank mode. I have a extra ignition switch, and I tried it and it did not help. I do not have a rear engine ignition networks, so any testing to assure I'm getting 12 volts requires two people.

I most likely have a starter solenoid / starter intermittent issue that needs to be addressed, but right now, getting power to the ECM appears to be the main challenge.

I may have to have it towed, but because you have to take the drive shaft off to do that, I'm trying to avoid that.

Again, any assistance is appreciated.
Diodes are basically one way current control valves. They are designed to block current in one direction and allow current flow in the other.

There are other specialty diodes that do a little more but basically they control or block current flow.

That being said, you do not check diodes with the meter in OHMS. There should be a diode symbol on your meter, select it. Then test with leads, one on each end of diode ( out of circuit of course), then reverse the leads. You should see continuity in only one direction.

If you see continuity in both direction, diode is shorted.
No continuity in either direction, diode is open.

Using the Ohms function on a diode is not accurate, and depending on the type of diode and ohmmeter, you will get false readings.


Where in the circuit is the diode located?
I can take a look at the wiring diagram for you.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:50 PM   #8
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Hey, Oldyeller...he did top off the coolant this morning but that didn't change anything.

Hi Ewo1...I'm not there with him, and I'm not really familiar with this circuit, but I did walk him through using the multimeter on those and I think he did use the diode check function. As he's explaining it, these diodes separate the front and rear start circuits...which makes sense for a diode pair, with each "pointing" towards the third leg. His bus' rear start panel has never worked. Unfortunately, none of our buses have such a system...they all have switches to select between front or rear start.
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Old 08-07-2021, 02:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by rossvtaylor View Post
Hey, Oldyeller...he did top off the coolant this morning but that didn't change anything.

Hi Ewo1...I'm not there with him, and I'm not really familiar with this circuit, but I did walk him through using the multimeter on those and I think he did use the diode check function. As he's explaining it, these diodes separate the front and rear start circuits...which makes sense for a diode pair, with each "pointing" towards the third leg. His bus' rear start panel has never worked. Unfortunately, none of our buses have such a system...they all have switches to select between front or rear start.
Hi Ross, I asked in a previous post if Steve had pulled codes on his bus. I'm assuming his bus has provisions to pull codes even without a scan tool. The procedure is in the document I suggested Steve download. Whether it works on his bus is unknown but I'm putting it out there anyway.

Is everyone sure the problem is with the starter/start circuit and not the fuel injection system. I see that he said when it stalled at the start of his Yakima problems he had started it and driven it 20 feet then it died. At the point of the bus moving the start circuit is out of the picture. I'd think you'd be looking at the fuel injection system, at least as a second resort. Maybe you have been but I'm just making suggestions please don't take it wrong.

Again the no start/hard start diagnostic manual has the procedure for testing/diagnosing the fuel injection system.
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Old 08-07-2021, 03:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossvtaylor View Post
Hey, Oldyeller...he did top off the coolant this morning but that didn't change anything.

Hi Ewo1...I'm not there with him, and I'm not really familiar with this circuit, but I did walk him through using the multimeter on those and I think he did use the diode check function. As he's explaining it, these diodes separate the front and rear start circuits...which makes sense for a diode pair, with each "pointing" towards the third leg. His bus' rear start panel has never worked. Unfortunately, none of our buses have such a system...they all have switches to select between front or rear start.
Checkout this thread.
https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f49/a...ams-25055.html

Posts 18 & 20

On post #20 I uploaded the wiring diagrams for the VIM which is where you find the diode for the front/rear start .
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Old 08-07-2021, 04:19 PM   #11
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Thank you all for your input and good wishes.

I added coolant and it did not make a difference.

With Ross's input I'm going to be bypassing the diodes and going to a simple one wire jump to eliminate the need for the diodes. This should simplify the circuitry.

I have a blue fire and no code showed on that. I did try my international software but for some reason it's not connecting to the ECM. I know there's another way to get codes from the dash, I just haven't gone there yet.

As Ross mentioned, I am self-sufficient at this point. My Westinghouse inverter generator has proven itself invaluable, running my mini split my house battery charger and my refrigerator and instant pot and a small fan with seemingly no effort at all. With all that running at once it was only at 75%, but without the instant pot and the house battery charging it's more at 50 or below percent.

I've got my starting batteries on a small 3 amp charger maintainer, so I can keep doing some testing.

Michael seems to think that the ECM isn't getting a signal and so while I can jump start the engine from the start relay, it shows no signs of trying to catch.

Thanks to randy, for directing me to the troubleshooting manual. I've downloaded it and will start looking through it

I do have the name of a couple of mobile mechanics, one of which is supposed to be back in town on Monday. I'm really trying to not have to tow the bus because I don't want to have to deal with taking the drive shaft out and putting it back in.

Again thank you for your input and support.
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Old 08-07-2021, 04:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Thank you all for your input and good wishes.

I added coolant and it did not make a difference.

With Ross's input I'm going to be bypassing the diodes and going to a simple one wire jump to eliminate the need for the diodes. This should simplify the circuitry.

I have a blue fire and no code showed on that. I did try my international software but for some reason it's not connecting to the ECM. I know there's another way to get codes from the dash, I just haven't gone there yet.

As Ross mentioned, I am self-sufficient at this point. My Westinghouse inverter generator has proven itself invaluable, running my mini split my house battery charger and my refrigerator and instant pot and a small fan with seemingly no effort at all. With all that running at once it was only at 75%, but without the instant pot and the house battery charging it's more at 50 or below percent.

I've got my starting batteries on a small 3 amp charger maintainer, so I can keep doing some testing.

Michael seems to think that the ECM isn't getting a signal and so while I can jump start the engine from the start relay, it shows no signs of trying to catch.

Thanks to randy, for directing me to the troubleshooting manual. I've downloaded it and will start looking through it

I do have the name of a couple of mobile mechanics, one of which is supposed to be back in town on Monday. I'm really trying to not have to tow the bus because I don't want to have to deal with taking the drive shaft out and putting it back in.

Again thank you for your input and support.
Hi Steve, I replied to your most recent PM and mentioned the page # (14) the procedure for pulling the codes using the STI button starts on.

Was just thinking if you manage to pull codes, do you have a code listing that'll tell you what the codes mean? I found them and I even made a copy, I just can't remember which device I saved it to or in what format. Ah well, I'm old.
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Old 08-07-2021, 09:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldyeller View Post
Hi Ross, I asked in a previous post if Steve had pulled codes on his bus. I'm assuming his bus has provisions to pull codes even without a scan tool. The procedure is in the document I suggested Steve download. Whether it works on his bus is unknown but I'm putting it out there anyway.

Is everyone sure the problem is with the starter/start circuit and not the fuel injection system. I see that he said when it stalled at the start of his Yakima problems he had started it and driven it 20 feet then it died. At the point of the bus moving the start circuit is out of the picture. I'd think you'd be looking at the fuel injection system, at least as a second resort. Maybe you have been but I'm just making suggestions please don't take it wrong.

Again the no start/hard start diagnostic manual has the procedure for testing/diagnosing the fuel injection system.
Hey...I definitely don't/didn't/won't take that wrong...nor any help for Steve!

I think there are two things going on...not necessarily related. When he and I were troubleshooting yesterday, it wasn't even cranking. Not even when he jumped across the starter solenoid with proper battery voltage. His prior issues and that observation seem to point to a failing starter or brush issue. But once he got it cranking, it wouldn't start. That falls into the realm of the ECM and that's where my experience and ability to help falls off the cliff.

Thank you, sir!
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:16 PM   #14
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So as a couple of you already know, I was able to remove the diode setup for the rear and front ignitions and jump a straight wire from the front ignition to the common wire. The bus started right up and ran fine. So I started for home. It wasn't but just after I got on the freeway that the wait to start light flashed and I thought oh no. So I got out and made sure I taped up the electrical connections even better and started down the road again then wait to start light flashed again you could feel a little hiccup and then all of a sudden the bus just went dead. So I pulled over and gave it one last shot, but I finally threw in the towel and called for a tow. As I was waiting a fellow local schooly guy was driving by and pulled over, but there wasn't really much to do. So now I'm sitting on the side of the freeway.
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:18 PM   #15
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Oh, another thing that happened they never happened before was it overheated. I was getting water dripping from my newly replaced top radiator hose and from the plastic reserve tank. All my temperatures were indicating perfect, so I have no idea why this happened. It's the first time.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:04 PM   #16
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Oh, another thing that happened they never happened before was it overheated. I was getting water dripping from my newly replaced top radiator hose and from the plastic reserve tank. All my temperatures were indicating perfect, so I have no idea why this happened. It's the first time.
Hmmmm, was it in a thread on this forum where I was reading about temperature sensors not reading correctly? Or maybe it was Bus Grease Monkey video related to the old Detroit 2 strokes. Kinda scary to think you can't trust your gauges.
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Old 08-08-2021, 09:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
So as a couple of you already know, I was able to remove the diode setup for the rear and front ignitions and jump a straight wire from the front ignition to the common wire. The bus started right up and ran fine. So I started for home. It wasn't but just after I got on the freeway that the wait to start light flashed and I thought oh no. So I got out and made sure I taped up the electrical connections even better and started down the road again then wait to start light flashed again you could feel a little hiccup and then all of a sudden the bus just went dead. So I pulled over and gave it one last shot, but I finally threw in the towel and called for a tow. As I was waiting a fellow local schooly guy was driving by and pulled over, but there wasn't really much to do. So now I'm sitting on the side of the freeway.
Sucks you had to get it towed but at least your moving forward now!

I used to own a '97 international medium duty wrecker with a dt466E a few years back and it would occasionally just shut off on me...drove me crazy!
At red lights, driving down the road...it would just shut down.
Back then I didn't know anything about these motors but what I did learn from that truck, when it stalled I would play musical chairs with the relays on the firewall. I would simply switch them around. they are all the same so it was ok to do that.

The truck would always start right up, run for a few days, weeks and then it would do it again.

Final solution, I replaced the three relays, problem went away.

I really don't know if the relays were just old and starting to become faulty, dirty corrosion on the relay socket contacts, loos wiring...

You mentioned you jumper the diodes with a piece of straight wire. Did you do it on both diodes at the same time or just one at a time.
My thought is that it should be one at a time.

also, did it start back up normally with just one wire..??? Front or rear start??

I ask because there are technically two starting circuits on your bus. so if one works and the other does not, could help indicate where to look at next.

The fact that she started back up makes me want to think the ECM is ok.

Since we are looking at diodes, there is another diode to check for. You got the two diode setup for the front/rear key switch (47) and you also have an ECM relay diode that would be worth looking at. I t looks like it is feed from a 5A fuse, feeding the ECM relay?

I have no idea if this is causing your problems but it surely is easy to check it out, just to be sure!

Here are the wiring diagrams for the starting / VIM circuits.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf VIM-Control Box wiring.pdf (614.6 KB, 8 views)
File Type: pdf Diode Assembly-VIM control box.pdf (581.9 KB, 4 views)
File Type: pdf VIM-Control box wiring_pg1 of 3.pdf (617.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: pdf VIM-Control box wiring_pg 2 of 3.pdf (464.8 KB, 1 views)
File Type: pdf VIM_Control Box wiring Pg 3 of 3.pdf (651.6 KB, 1 views)
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:14 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ewo1 View Post
Sucks you had to get it towed but at least your moving forward now!
I just heard from Steve and he's still waiting for the tow...
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:48 AM   #19
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Engine: 345
If you have no communication with the ECM when you're trying to pull codes check your clean power and ground connections on top of your batteries. They are the 10 guage wires with plugs and fuses. I've seen them fail before and cause some weird hard to find problems. I've seen corrosion where they are crimped into the battery cable ends too under the factory tape. I'm the mobile mechanic for the International dealer over here in Spokane and I think the Yakima International mobile tech is out for a couple of weeks. I work on alot of school buses for districts in eastern WA.
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:22 AM   #20
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im coming in late.. (I really was planning on never coming back to the forum again).. anyway to this post..



the wait-start light is only ever designed to come on during ECM bootup.. if its illuminating while driving its either the ECM going through a reboot (read that as momentary power cycle) or the crappy IH dash cluster..



if the ECM detects RPM on powerup it goes through an abbreviated self check and comes right back online..



like mentioned in the post directly before mine check the separatred ECM wires at the batteries.. I believe one of those contains a fusible link (it did on mine).. fusible links are a known intermittent failure point.. I swap them to fused circuits whenever possible..



if the IH software wouldnt connect to your ECM (using a nexiq or clone.. you cant use bluefire to connect with IH) then its likely either the ECM fails to boot or no power to the DIAG circuit.. the DIAG fuse along with the ECM fuses need to have power for the computer to run.. ive seen these IH fuse panels (in my conventional) get loose and not hold the blades tight.. going over bumps would cause similar things in mine.. my WARN light would flash on then right back off and the engine would "burp" ..


the Power relay circuit is the one which enables everything to operate.. somewhere recently the Power relay diagram was posted.. check that circuit and that relay and its pins.. without that you wont even get crank (unless you are jumping things)..



in a no-crankl state its unlinkely you can read codes as the ECM is likely not booted.
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