Budd wheels: Any good reason I can't mount wheels myself?

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

3/4" air line is pretty large, seems a bit overkill. Nothing wrong with that but not consumer available really. I have done alright with 3/8" air hose, yes a bit small but it works for an occasional tire or two.

The horrible freight "Earthquake" series of impact guns have a high torque rating and seem to do well. I have one and like it, 1/2" drive, and will get the lug nuts off. They do have a 3/4" drive as well.

I first purchased a multiplier, that did not budge the nuts. I then bought the Earthquake 20v, 1/2", 1200ftlbs. It also didn't budge them. Brought the tool home, then needed a 1/2"-3/4" adaptor for the socket, search 5 stores before finding one at O'Reilly's , got hom eonly to find the multiplier socket was 1" drive , not 3/4. So ended up buying an impact 1/2 drive socket. Still have yet to break a nut loose.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Dangerous as in a fall hazard, hence the young and agile comment. In the shop it wasn't bad, but on the side of the road, working in a grassy ditch, in the rain or snow, no thank you. There are a lot of sources for an accident in that scenario.

1 inch impact to remove and tighten. 3/4 inch air hose, large volume of compressed air.
https://www.alltiresupply.com/produc...nt=16349636037

The impact has a few different settings for power levels, I usually keep it on full blast. We started using a torque stick on the impact. Some people will have a stroke at that statement but ours works like it's supposed to. Here is an example if you don't know what they are. https://sunextools.com/products/1-dr...extension-bar/

They're designed to tighten to a certain ft lb with an impact gun, and then absorb anything more then that like a torsion spring. You can't use it with a breaker bar.

We have a 1" drive micrometer type torque wrench on the shelf in the back room if it's needed, but it hasn't been used in some time(the last time I used it was when the impact was broken). I've been told to never use any pipe with a torque wrench, it changes the movement which changes the value. The 1" torque wrench has a long handle, so there's no need for an extension. A lot of places and side of the road service guys will just hammer the nuts back on with the impact only, so I'm satisfied with our method.

What do you think about oil on the threads on install? penetrating oil on break loose/out?

[Ronnie]

I put antiseize on the threads, and the hub pilot.

In engine building you always oil the threads, it is part of getting the correct torque. Dry threads will give a different torque reading.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by o1marc

I first purchased a multiplier, that did not budge the nuts. I then bought the Earthquake 20v, 1/2", 1200ftlbs. It also didn't budge them. Brought the tool home, then needed a 1/2"-3/4" adaptor for the socket, search 5 stores before finding one at O'Reilly's , got hom eonly to find the multiplier socket was 1" drive , not 3/4. So ended up buying an impact 1/2 drive socket. Still have yet to break a nut loose.

I have not tried the electric impact from Horrible freight just the air one.

[Alan N]

The harbor freight one inch impact has served me well.

Using your buses air compressor will be slow but you will get the job done.
The six foot pipe will work as well but it is less fun.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Alan N

Using your buses air compressor will be slow but you will get the job done.

That's exactly why road service trucks use gas powered, high CFM air compressors. For our purposes, as long as you don't mind the air recharge rate, one or two lugs at a time will be fine. And let's be honest, how often are you going to be removing/replacing tires yourself?

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by kidharris

What do you think about oil on the threads on install? penetrating oil on break loose/out?

All of them say to install them with the threads clean. That's from passenger cars all the way up to Heavy duty. So that's step 1.

On hd stuff where you torque to 500 ft lbs, you can lube the threads. Some use anti-seize, and that's probably okay. I put a drop of oil between the washer and nut (you're supposed to if you don't), so the oil can is already there beside me, so I just use oil on the threads too.

On some of your lighter torqued wheels, they don't want any oil/grease/antisieze on the threads, just between the nut and washer, so check with a manual/expert/etc.

[Truthseeker4449]

Originally Posted by kidharris

Is this an 18v battery operated tool you are refering to? Model #?

Milwaukee 2767-20 is the bare tool, it part of the M18 FUEL line.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

The impact has a few different settings for power levels, I usually keep it on full blast. We started using a torque stick on the impact. Some people will have a stroke at that statement but ours works like it's supposed to. Here is an example if you don't know what they are. https://sunextools.com/products/1-dr...extension-bar/

They're designed to tighten to a certain ft lb with an impact gun, and then absorb anything more then that like a torsion spring. You can't use it with a breaker bar.

We have a 1" drive micrometer type torque wrench on the shelf in the back room if it's needed, but it hasn't been used in some time(the last time I used it was when the impact was broken). I've been told to never use any pipe with a torque wrench, it changes the movement which changes the value. The 1" torque wrench has a long handle, so there's no need for an extension. A lot of places and side of the road service guys will just hammer the nuts back on with the impact only, so I'm satisfied with our method.

A couple of questions about torque sticks. First, that brand that you linked to is exoensive. Is that the brand you use at work that you trust? Have you checked the torque with a torque wrench?

Now for my real concern. I am considering buying a 18volt 1/2" impact that has enough power to break/install my bus wheels, but I want to be able to do all of my other vehicles wheels with it as well. What worries me is snapping off the studs on the smaller wheels. Can I just use a torque stick lower than the required torque setting and then finish with a torque wrench on the smaller stuff? Or will 700-1000 ftlb impact wrench just snap the low 50-150 ftlb torque sticks or studs? Do I need a lighter duty impact for the smaller stuff? This is not something that I want to experiment with or find out the hard way.

On the Makita impacts that I was looking at, there is not enough of a difference in weight between the lighter and heavier impacts to make tool weight a factor. The Milwaukee impact discussed elsewhere in this thread is also under consideration, but it will cost more for me since I already have Makita batteries/chargers

These are the tools I am considering:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-1...8XVZ/302978341

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...7-20/302654201

Any thoughts/advice is appreciated?


I know that I will still need air to inflate the tires/fix flats. But I am trying to avoid the expense and space required for carrying a big compressor, big air lines and huge air impact on the bus. Replacing all of that with a small impact (that doesn't require fuel to operate) that can be used for other things appeals to me. I also got your point about just using a breakaway, cheater bar, extension and socket. I like it, but I am lazy and want a impact for lots of other stuff too.

I have a cheap bead blaster that works so I am not worried about needing a lot of cfm to air the tires or seal the bead. I am a little light weight for handling the tires, but if I can't find help I will rig something.

A lot of the time I am in places that if you can't get yourself out then you are not getting out. I don't want to leave the bus behind if I don't have to. I'm thinking of just carrying a spare tire (used? hope I never need to use it), no wheel - lighter to handle, less space, but slower to change. In a real emergency, shtf, I could also use a tire from an abandoned vehicle, maybe fix my tire, whatever.

[magnakansas]

several ways to get them off. tightening the nut is maybe a hard part. and lifting that wheel up into place could be , well, difficult.

go watch some videos on you tube about four hours worth on changing heavy truck tires/wheels. you can by 40" pry bars that will help you lift the tire up on to the studs. you can buy a torque multiplier that can be used to get nuts off and on and torqued. not as fast as impact guns... but they work. also, if you have the ability you can modify a 12v or 18 volt impacts to run from your bus batteries probably the 20v stuff too. I have a 12v snap on.... it has jumper cables wired into it..... I connect to my starter batteries.

william

[Truthseeker4449]

I just remembered they also make torque multiplication tools that brace off of other studs with crazy high gear ratios so you can break the lugs loose with a hand crank then take them off with almost anything else. I've use them a few times, but not in quite a few months and I don't own one, hence how it slipped my memory.

https://www.amazon.com/Torque-Multip.../dp/B00FPS5SQS

Strength wise, I'm not very strong. I don't like lifting, and I hated doing tire rotations on big tires. As soon as I got into working on buses, I was shown the old timer way of using a big prybar. It works better on alloy wheels than steel wheels, less likely to bind up, but it makes even 22.5" rims fairly easy to handle.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by kidharris

A couple of questions about torque sticks. First, that brand that you linked to is exoensive. Is that the brand you use at work that you trust? Have you checked the torque with a torque wrench?

Our HD torque stick is from ken-tool. That's what our tire distributor recommended and got for us. I'm not sure what you consider cheap vs expensive, but that sunex brand one is less then 100 bucks on amazon.

We checked it when we originally purchased it. Checked it a bunch of different ways. One way was by comparing the orientation of a nut when torqued with this vs a torque wrench(they were identical). We also tightened half the lug nuts on a wheel with this, and the other half with a torque wrench, and then compared the torque it took to break the nut loose. They were all about the same. Then we used our smaller digital wrench with a borrowed torque multiplier to see if we could tell where they were torqued to, and they all seemed to be either correct or slightly over, which is fine by me.

Originally Posted by kidharris

Now for my real concern. I am considering buying a 18volt 1/2" impact that has enough power to break/install my bus wheels, but I want to be able to do all of my other vehicles wheels with it as well. What worries me is snapping off the studs on the smaller wheels. Can I just use a torque stick lower than the required torque setting and then finish with a torque wrench on the smaller stuff? Or will 700-1000 ftlb impact wrench just snap the low 50-150 ftlb torque sticks or studs? Do I need a lighter duty impact for the smaller stuff? This is not something that I want to experiment with or find out the hard way.

Using a half inch battery impact, I'd be surprised if you could ruin a half inch torque stick. I know those impacts are rated at 1000 ft lbs, but I'd be interested in seeing what they can do in a real world scenario. We've had a few battery impacts from snap on and milwaukee in the shop, and contrary to what their ratings said, they always seemed to under perform the air impacts that were rated at or below them. The bigger problem that I saw with battery impacts is that their performance will vary pretty wildly over the battery life. Granted, they were the first gen li-ion batteries, not the newer fuel series, but I'm still not certain I would trust a torque stick and electric impact in this situation.

Originally Posted by kidharris

On the Makita impacts that I was looking at, there is not enough of a difference in weight between the lighter and heavier impacts to make tool weight a factor. The Milwaukee impact discussed elsewhere in this thread is also under consideration, but it will cost more for me since I already have Makita batteries/chargers

These are the tools I am considering:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-1...8XVZ/302978341

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...7-20/302654201

Any thoughts/advice is appreciated?

No opinion really. All the battery stuff we have in the shop is from snap on or milwaukee, and all of it is over 5 years old. I'm in the same boat as you in that I'm looking to upgrade and I don't know what brand to get. I'll likely stick with milwaukee, because the tools we have now are still functional, it's just the batteries are trash. My local weld shop sells milwaukee tools and they do a trade in event where you can upgrade from what you currently have for pretty cheap. It will still be a couple hundred dollar bill, but it's cheaper then buying them without the deal.

Originally Posted by kidharris

I know that I will still need air to inflate the tires/fix flats. But I am trying to avoid the expense and space required for carrying a big compressor, big air lines and huge air impact on the bus. Replacing all of that with a small impact (that doesn't require fuel to operate) that can be used for other things appeals to me. I also got your point about just using a breakaway, cheater bar, extension and socket. I like it, but I am lazy and want a impact for lots of other stuff too.

I have a cheap bead blaster that works so I am not worried about needing a lot of cfm to air the tires or seal the bead. I am a little light weight for handling the tires, but if I can't find help I will rig something.

A lot of the time I am in places that if you can't get yourself out then you are not getting out. I don't want to leave the bus behind if I don't have to. I'm thinking of just carrying a spare tire (used? hope I never need to use it), no wheel - lighter to handle, less space, but slower to change. In a real emergency, shtf, I could also use a tire from an abandoned vehicle, maybe fix my tire, whatever.

Then buy one of the electric impacts and see if they'll work in the situation. I'm going to hold my breath but would be willing to be surprised. If it doesn't work, you can always go back to the breaker bar and pipe.

I wouldn't buy an inch drive gun unless you plan on doing it regularly. It's foolish in my eyes to spend that kind of money on something you'll likely never use.

Doesn't matter your weight, I've seen folks who couldn't have weighed more then 100 lbs install and remove wheels. It's all about leverage and force multiplication. Look up videos on how guys install the tires. Nobody is heaving the thing on there at chest height using their arms/back. If they are, they won't be for long. Everyone that's smart use a breaker bar underneath to pick it up the inch or so onto the hub. Those that are really smart have a wheel dolly and do even less work.

And! Unless it's an inside dual, I've seen guys replace the tire without removing the wheel from the vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI5Q8rBhB5U

And if it is one of the duals, you can always limp back to civilization/cell service.

[Free Bird]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

I'm about 5 minutes into knowing what a Budd wheel is, & recognizing that's what we have on our bus, so take that into consideration

Is it realistic for a 200+ # man (I won't say how +), to mount/unmount Budds alone? If so, what do I need besides the obvious (breaker bar, stout torque wrench, jack, cribbing)?

Yep, It's totally realistic, you can do it yourself with hand tools and for roadside repair you can skip the torque wrench. Think automotive, only bigger.
I carry a 3/4 drive breaker bar with an extendable handle and an 8 ton jack. Do a dry run at home so you know your nuts aren't rusted solid

A few short pieces of 2x6 are all you need for leveling when camping and they are also handy during a tire change. Rolling the replacement tire on to blocking involves a bit of fooling around to get the height perfect for stud alignment but it's a useful trick when working alone. With both hands free you are in good position to hold the wheel in place and start a lug nut. Also it saves you from crawling under the bus (unsafe) to make height adjustments with the jack.

I travel pretty minimal in the tools department, I doubt I will ever have to change one of my tires on the road. The other consideration is how much value in easily stolen items do you want to leave in the bus?

[brokedown]

marc, after you said you couldn't do your lugs with the Earthquake, i went out and tested it on my A3RE. I made a video too but the wind was blowing and my action cam couldn't handle it so you can't hear anything I was saying and i didn't post it.

Since I don't have a torque wrench that can accurate measure 450 lb/ft, I used math. Torque scales linearly, so 100 pounds at 2 feet from the pivot is 200 lb/ft. I weighed in at exactly 180 pounds and assembled a combination of breaker bar, deep well socket, and enough extensions to put me 30 inches out. 180 pounds x 2.5 ft =450 lb/ft with me standing on the end. The Earthquake had no problem with them. I even bounced as much as I dared given that the makeshift lever was flexing pretty far and it still knocked them right off. Something is screwy with your lugs if neither the Earthquake nor the torque multiplier will loosen them. have you tried heating them with a propane torch?

I'll remake that video at some point, I need to figure out a better system for audio.

Also, a nut takes about 10% less torque to loosen than it took to tighten, here's a video on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zuqSrD6F8I

[brokedown]

here I am putting way too much faith in some tools I didn't pay full price for.

[Free Bird]

Originally Posted by o1marc

I first purchased a multiplier, that did not budge the nuts. I then bought the Earthquake 20v, 1/2", 1200ftlbs. It also didn't budge them. Brought the tool home, then needed a 1/2"-3/4" adaptor for the socket, search 5 stores before finding one at O'Reilly's , got hom eonly to find the multiplier socket was 1" drive , not 3/4. So ended up buying an impact 1/2 drive socket. Still have yet to break a nut loose.

When the option is there a small propane torch can make all the difference with rusted on nuts.