Budd wheels: Any good reason I can't mount wheels myself?

[TheHubbardBus]

I'm about 5 minutes into knowing what a Budd wheel is, & recognizing that's what we have on our bus, so take that into consideration

One thread I got my learning from was this one: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f33/wh...nfo-10659.html

In the first post, Jatsy states he likes Daytons because they allow him mount/unmount them himself. This doesn't compute with me, because it would seem the the Budd's would be easier since you don't have to fret the runout. Are his comments based solely on the fact more strength is required to loosen/tighten lug nuts and/or lift the tire/wheel assembly? Is it realistic for a 200+ # man (I won't say how +), to mount/unmount Budds alone? If so, what do I need besides the obvious (breaker bar, stout torque wrench, jack, cribbing)?

[WIbluebird]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

I'm about 5 minutes into knowing what a Budd wheel is, & recognizing that's what we have on our bus, so take that into consideration

One thread I got my learning from was this one: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f33/wh...nfo-10659.html

In the first post, Jatsy states he likes Daytons because they allow him mount/unmount them himself. This doesn't compute with me, because it would seem the the Budd's would be easier since you don't have to fret the runout. Are his comments based solely on the fact more strength is required to loosen/tighten lug nuts and/or lift the tire/wheel assembly? Is it realistic for a 200+ # man (I won't say how +), to mount/unmount Budds alone? If so, what do I need besides the obvious (breaker bar, stout torque wrench, jack, cribbing)?

Are you sure that's a Budd wheel? 2003 seems kinda late for Budd wheels. There's a difference between Budd wheels (also called stud pilot) and the newer style hub pilot wheels. They look very similiar but there's a definite difference.

https://buytruckwheels.com/pages/hubpilotvsbudd

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

Are you sure that's a Budd wheel? 2003 seems kinda late for Budd wheels. There's a difference between Budd wheels (also called stud pilot) and the newer style hub pilot wheels. They look very similiar but there's a definite difference.

https://buytruckwheels.com/pages/hubpilotvsbudd

Thanks for the education! I guess I didn't know what I thought I did lol.


It looks like I have the hub piloted wheels as you suspect. The lug nuts don't look like the ones in the video (much wider, with less depth), and there's no backing washer (just the nut, then the rim). But I don't see any sign of there being a bevel, either on the lug nuts or the holes in the wheel they seat into.



Would this make a difference in regards to my questions, and the ease (or lack of ease) mounting/dismounting?

[WIbluebird]

You can't see the bevel on the wheels unless the rim is off the vehicle.

Another downside to stud pilot wheels is you have 2x the number of lugnuts whereas hub pilot one set of lug nuts on each corner holds both tires in place.

I would never buy a bus with Daytons. Generally you only see those on realllllly old buses or ones that were specced as cheaply as possible so they often have other undesirable features like low roofs and AT545s.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

In the first post, Jatsy states he likes Daytons because they allow him mount/unmount them himself. This doesn't compute with me, because it would seem the the Budd's would be easier since you don't have to fret the runout.

Once, you get the hang of it, setting the run out is easy. Tightening the clamps evenly until snug will usually get you close, if not correct the first time

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Are his comments based solely on the fact more strength is required to loosen/tighten lug nuts and/or lift the tire/wheel assembly? Is it realistic for a 200+ # man (I won't say how +), to mount/unmount Budds alone? If so, what do I need besides the obvious (breaker bar, stout torque wrench, jack, cribbing)?

It's realistic to think that, but the breakaway torque on a lug nut that's torqued to 500 ft lbs, especially after they become rusted from use, is a bunch. Standing on a 6 ft pipe to break them loose will be necessary, I weight just over 200, and when our 1 inch impact was down in the shop, I had to do just that to break loose lug nuts. It wasn't fun, and doing it by yourself outside could be dangerous quickly, especially if you aren't young and agile. Also, look at the cost of a 500+ ft lb torque wrench, they're not cheap.

Both are doable on the side of the road, but if I had to do it without air tools, I'd choose to do daytons. But lets be serious, most on here will call someone and pay a pro to do it.

The weight of the tire/rim is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Very few have enough strength to pick up a wheel and mount it on a bus like you would a passenger car tire. Most will roll it onto a prybar and pick it up with that, or shimmy it on from ground level.

[mmoore6856]

ask any tire man what its like when the pilot mount rusts on. if the stud has a square end its a bud if its round its a pilot mount. good luck with that pilot mount as we would loosen the lug nuts a turn then drive it in the lot to get the rims loose as they rust on badly. i got daytons as they are a stronger rim and wont rust to the hub

[mmoore6856]

use lots of neversieze on the studs and around the hub where the wheel contacts the hub. always check budd wheels for cracks s that was a common problem on them but the pilot mount pretty much solved that issue

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

It's realistic to think that, but the breakaway torque on a lug nut that's torqued to 500 ft lbs, especially after they become rusted from use, is a bunch. Standing on a 6 ft pipe to break them loose will be necessary, I weight just over 200, and when our 1 inch impact was down in the shop, I had to do just that to break loose lug nuts. It wasn't fun, and doing it by yourself outside could be dangerous quickly, especially if you aren't young and agile. Also, look at the cost of a 500+ ft lb torque wrench, they're not cheap.

Just pulling this much out but thanks for all the advice (along w/ everyone else!)

Could you define 'dangerous'? I'm not exactly sure what types of potential injuries you're inferring.

Finally, how do you do it in a shop? Do you use an impact to remove & tighten, or just to remove? If the former, do you have a way to set the impact to a certain torque, or do you get it close & then finish it off with a torque wrench? Are these big-a$$ torque wrenches designed so breakers can easily be slipped over them?

[sportyrick]

Changing a tire on the road is a nightmare plus you lose valuable space for a spare and tools, that's why we all carry a credit card. Short story: we drove all night and were in the middle of Nebraska and at 5:30 AM and heard that terrible sound... a flat. Having 10:00 20's on the front I didn't want to be stuck with them for eternity so opted for modern tires and wheels so 5 hours and $1600 later we were back on the road with 2 bare 10:00-20 Alcoa wheels stowed in the wood box (which I am trying to sell)

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Just pulling this much out but thanks for all the advice (along w/ everyone else!)

Could you define 'dangerous'? I'm not exactly sure what types of potential injuries you're inferring.

Finally, how do you do it in a shop? Do you use an impact to remove & tighten, or just to remove? If the former, do you have a way to set the impact to a certain torque, or do you get it close & then finish it off with a torque wrench? Are these big-a$$ torque wrenches designed so breakers can easily be slipped over them?

Dangerous as in a fall hazard, hence the young and agile comment. In the shop it wasn't bad, but on the side of the road, working in a grassy ditch, in the rain or snow, no thank you. There are a lot of sources for an accident in that scenario.

1 inch impact to remove and tighten. 3/4 inch air hose, large volume of compressed air.
https://www.alltiresupply.com/produc...nt=16349636037

The impact has a few different settings for power levels, I usually keep it on full blast. We started using a torque stick on the impact. Some people will have a stroke at that statement but ours works like it's supposed to. Here is an example if you don't know what they are. https://sunextools.com/products/1-dr...extension-bar/

They're designed to tighten to a certain ft lb with an impact gun, and then absorb anything more then that like a torsion spring. You can't use it with a breaker bar.

We have a 1" drive micrometer type torque wrench on the shelf in the back room if it's needed, but it hasn't been used in some time(the last time I used it was when the impact was broken). I've been told to never use any pipe with a torque wrench, it changes the movement which changes the value. The 1" torque wrench has a long handle, so there's no need for an extension. A lot of places and side of the road service guys will just hammer the nuts back on with the impact only, so I'm satisfied with our method.

[TheHubbardBus]

Thanks so much for all the info, Booyah. I know no-one's paying you to give me (& the world) free lessons on tire mounting, so I really appreciate the time you've taken to explain the process.


Reality may be beginning to set in

[Truthseeker4449]

As an alternative to the bulky 1" drive, check out Milkwaukee's 1/2" High Torque impact gun. I use one at work and it usually will take off the wheels off a bus, especially if it was actually torqued to spec (around 450 ft lbs). It's stronger than a lot of air impacts short of a high end beefy 3/4" and of course the massive 1" drives.

I would strongly suggest trying to borrow one to demo before buying one with high amp hour batteries and highly recommend switching batteries before tightening the wheels. You'll need all the power you can get to avoid having a wheel come loose.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by sportyrick

Changing a tire on the road is a nightmare plus you lose valuable space for a spare and tools, that's why we all carry a credit card. Short story: we drove all night and were in the middle of Nebraska and at 5:30 AM and heard that terrible sound... a flat. Having 10:00 20's on the front I didn't want to be stuck with them for eternity so opted for modern tires and wheels so 5 hours and $1600 later we were back on the road with 2 bare 10:00-20 Alcoa wheels stowed in the wood box (which I am trying to sell)

That credit card is not going to do you any good if you don't have cell phone service or you are so far off the main highway that the tire trucks don't want to mess with you. The western states are not at all like Nebraska.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

As an alternative to the bulky 1" drive, check out Milkwaukee's 1/2" High Torque impact gun. I use one at work and it usually will take off the wheels off a bus, especially if it was actually torqued to spec (around 450 ft lbs). It's stronger than a lot of air impacts short of a high end beefy 3/4" and of course the massive 1" drives.

I would strongly suggest trying to borrow one to demo before buying one with high amp hour batteries and highly recommend switching batteries before tightening the wheels. You'll need all the power you can get to avoid having a wheel come loose.

Is this an 18v battery operated tool you are refering to? Model #?

[Ronnie]

The battery powered Milwaukee impact really does have some torque. My axle studs/nuts came loose and a friend had one of them and we tightened the nuts right up. This was last summer. I just serviced my brakes last week, so needed to get the axle out and my normal air impact had a hard time loosening the same nuts.

Check out the specs on one they should do the job and would be handy to have.

[TheHubbardBus]

Definitely intrigued.

Considering we have air brakes, would I have the air capacity to drive an impact that would do as good or a better job than the electric impact we're discussing?

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Definitely intrigued.

Considering we have air brakes, would I have the air capacity to drive an impact that would do as good or a better job than the electric impact we're discussing?

I'd give this a provisional yes. You'll have the 120 PSI but may not have a 3/4" air fitting for the impact wrench, and you'll have a limited air supply and limited recharge rate. So basically it's remove a couple nuts, with for air to recharge, remove a couple more, etc. The air line size restriction (and capacity, to some extent) can be resolved by adding a temporary auxiliary portable tank, one that could be quick-connected into the system with whatever size line, and a 3/4" line from that. You'll need a quick burst of air for the air tool but a slower refill rate for the tank will be fine as you move to the next nut.

[Ronnie]

3/4" air line is pretty large, seems a bit overkill. Nothing wrong with that but not consumer available really. I have done alright with 3/8" air hose, yes a bit small but it works for an occasional tire or two.

The horrible freight "Earthquake" series of impact guns have a high torque rating and seem to do well. I have one and like it, 1/2" drive, and will get the lug nuts off. They do have a 3/4" drive as well.

[TheHubbardBus]

Many Thanks, Brad & Ronnie! And of course everyone else. Sounds like I've got a plan worked out. I don't want to do roadside wheel/tire swaps, & paying folks to do it would be fine with me, but I'd like to have the capability if all else fails. As far as waiting a bit between lugs, I'm good with that. I'm naturally lazy anyway. 2 lugs, 1 beer. 2 lugs, another beer.

(just kidding. no beer while working. I'll just add up all the beers I'm owed and shotgun 'em after the job's done ).

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

3/4" air line is pretty large, seems a bit overkill. Nothing wrong with that but not consumer available really. I have done alright with 3/8" air hose, yes a bit small but it works for an occasional tire or two.

The horrible freight "Earthquake" series of impact guns have a high torque rating and seem to do well. I have one and like it, 1/2" drive, and will get the lug nuts off. They do have a 3/4" drive as well.

I ordered the 3/4 inch air hose off the internet. I'd be surprised if anywhere local had it in stock.

It all depends on how far the run is and how much air you need. Our inch gun takes a bunch of air and a 3/8 wouldn't come close to supplying it. We have 1/2 inch line for the 3/4 inch guns, You might be able to get by with 3/8 line with one of them, but with the inch there is no way. Even half inch hose on the big gun had a substantial pressure drop from one end of the hose to the other.

Truthfully, if all you're looking to do is emergency stuff, just get a socket, extension, a breaker bar and a length of pipe.

There's no need for an inch drive torque wrench in an emergency situation, just tighten the nuts good and drive to the nearest tire place to get help. They don't put a torque wrench in the trunk of your car to install the spare do they?