Buying a bus - All of my notes compiled from across Skoolie.net

[Beeb]

Hi everyone!

I am fairly new to the Skoolie life (got our bus on August 1st!). And I don't have much to contribute, just lots to learn. But I figured I'd make a post with the notes I took when I was researching what kind of bus to buy. Most of my notes are just quotes I wrote down as I browsed through this forum, and I included a few links where I gathered my info from. Just hoping this info all being in one place can help someone else who is trying to figure out where to begin like I was just a month or so ago!

For those who are looking to buy a bus and wondering where to start, I recommend first figuring out what you're looking for in your bus - what engine, what transmission, what body-type, etc. I'm hoping this post can help you figure out what you're looking for!


And I also definitely invite anyone else to contribute their thoughts as well! To all of you who have contributed in various threads in the past, and thereby helped me pick out our beautiful DT-466/Allison 2500/International:


Also, if you drive a bus with an AT-545 or something else on here that's marked as bad: no hard feelings! These are all just notes I've taken on other people's opinions! I'd love to hear your thoughts on your own experience!


BUS ENGINES:


http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f33/wh...-for-3878.html
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f9/eng...ing-14415.html

- dt466 is widely considered the best skoolie bus engine because of longevity, durability, and readily available parts; "best medium-duty engine ever built, bar none"; an excellent cold-starter; "Pretty much any variant of the dt466 should serve you well. Check for coolant in the oil (usually indicates cylinder liner seals leaking, rebuild in order to fix) but aside from that, I believe these engines can go a million miles if properly cared for"; known as one of the top 5 best engines ever made

- dt466e is the upgraded version of the 466. Also excellent, slightly more powerful and efficient and cleaner burning. Has more moving parts, and parts tend to be a bit pricier as well.

- dt360 is nearly identical to the 466, but w/ less horsepower, less displacement, and slightly better fuel mileage (though not all agree)

- Cummins 5.9 gets way better fuel economy than dt360, and is available w/ more hp than 360. Parts are available everywhere. At least some consider this their favorite engine; the older 12V 6BT mechanical engines are less money and use a bit less fuel than the late-1998 and newer 24-valve ISB's.

- Cummins 8.3 is the 5.9's big brother; excellent engine, though rare in buses. Potentially same things as "ISC" ??Not sure about that.

- One person says he would tend to stay away from any v8 diesel

- 9.0 International is rumored to be a boat anchor, but a very fuel efficient boat anchor; "I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me"

- Stay away from detroit diesel engines

- International's 6.9 and 7.3 IDI engines aren't bad, but are unforgiving of abuse or neglect. Would recommend PLENTY of service records before buying one. Not especially powerful, especially in mountains (no turbo)

- T444E came out around 1995 to replace the 7.3 IDI and is more durable and usually more powerful (170 or 190hp, but any dealer can turn it up to 210), not as forgiving as the 466, but not bad. They run hot, especially climbing hills. This is normal and won't hurt anything.

- Cummins 555ci is worse than the 9.0 International

- CAT engines have proprietary parts, must be purchased from a Cat dealer, tend to be more expensive. Many people have these in their skoolies, but there are also a number of horror stories


BUS TRANSMISSIONS

- AT545 - avoid. doesn't lock up, which makes them pretty dismal on the highway & in the hills. Have never seen a dt466 (engine) with an AT545.

- Allison MT643 - far superior to AT545. Does lock up in high gear.

- Aim for one of Allison's 1000,2000, 2500, or 3000 series

- The difference between these of interest to skoolies are horsepower and torque limits. If it came in the bus with the engine, it's fine. These are generally the preferred automatics installed in school buses in the last 25 years.

- The 1000 & 2500 series are 5-speed. They are able to run deep axle gears around-town, but still run at normal highway speeds without revving the engine on the governor.

- MD3060 - not sure much about this, but some people said that a dt466 with a MD3060 is "near a dream drivetrain"

- Another quote: "Cummins 8.3 w/ MD3060 transmission is probably the best engine and trans combo available in a school bus"

- Voith Transmission - uncommon and expensive to repair. Avoid.


Benefits of manual transmission:

- Longevity - treat it well and you'll get way more life out of a manual. Auto transmissions rely on belts/bands which create a lot of heat and friction. Just a matter of time till something gives.

- Service - Manual transmissions are easier to work on, lots of full time mechanics won't touch the inside of an auto transmission, they send them out.

- Control - being able to control shift points and clutch release rate is great for towing or driving in the snow/down steep grades. If an automatic decides to shift on you harshly at the wrong time in the snow it can initiate a spin.

- Even with a broken manual transmission, there's a good chance you can still limp it home, also allows the option of pop starting it if you find yourself with a dead battery

Miscellaneous Notes:

- Biggest favor you can do for yourself if you buy an auto is install an external transmission cooler and a transmission temp gauge. Make sure to check your transmission fluid regularly both for level and odor. Heat equals death to these things.

http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f6/which-bus-22967.html

- "If you want to go to national parks, stay under 35ft for sure"

- "A rear engine is a lot quieter to drive, but can't have a garage in the back"

- "Get it checked out mechanically FOR SURE unless you're a diesel mechanic"

- "Buy from a rust free area. If you want a bus equipped for the mountains, buy a bus that comes from the mountains. You aren't going to find a bus with auto chains, sanders, and a transmission for the mountains in Kansas. A transmission that is good in Colorado isn't going to run 75 on the freeway for hours happily."

- "Check the code on the tires for the date they were manufactured"

[PNW_Steve]

Good info. Thank you for sharing.

I would offer a couple of differences in perspective.

My last bus had a Detroit engine and I LOVED it. I would buy another in a heartbeat.

My current bus has the Cummins ISC. Yes it is the electronic version of the 8.3 and it is fairly common.

Thanks again.

[johnbloem1974]

Only thing I would add is that the DT466 DOES come with the AT545 in lower HP variants. I *HAD* one in mine, now I have an MT643 after the 545 crapped out!

Great info, though!

John

[Chainmaker]

Thanks for your cliff notes

[MattStub]

Being extremely new to the site and looking at buying a bus in 2019 I thank you very much for this, such great information!

[Nothing2lose]

ha i feel like i have this handwritten in my notebook. great post

[HazMatt]

Where the heck were you when I got my 175 hp T444E...?!

Excellent summation! [emoji106]

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by johnbloem1974

Only thing I would add is that the DT466 DOES come with the AT545 in lower HP variants. I *HAD* one in mine, now I have an MT643 after the 545 crapped out!

Great info, though!

John

and as much as i always felt the AT545 to be adequete.. wow what a different an MT-643 makes.. or an allison 1000/2000/3000..


I can say after having had 2 busses with AT545s that Nuked.. and then Swapping the transmissions out.. that transmissions make a HUGE difference..



the real comparison (as john can attest to) is having the SAME bus with a 545 then with a 643 or other lockup...



im on my first really long road trip through varying terrain with my DT360 and a MT643 vs the 545.. its a whole different bus.. I pulled Jellico mountain foot to the floor in 90 degree heat at about 53 MPH.. my temp gauge reached the center which on my dash is about 195 or so.. my fan finally did kick in but didnt stay in long... previously my fan was roaring the whole way up and I was going 43 or 44 maybe..



my MPGs have improved a lot.. im driving this bus comfortably at 65 where previously it really stressed the drivetrain and got terrible mileage doing so.. I was always against my rev limiter (2800) at 65.. and alowed down on every bridge incline, to the point I just started driving that bus at 55-60.. this trip at 65 im at 2600 RPM and holding my own.. using almost no oil and getting 2MPG better than I did before..



similar results were recorded in my red bus that has a T-444E when I swapped its AT545 for a 6 speed Built allison 1000 (very similar to a 2000 series).. that bus improved in the same ways...



-Christopher

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by HazMatt

Where the heck were you when I got my 175 hp T444E...?!
Attachment 36123
Excellent summation! [emoji106]

how daring are you? we couple pump up your triple 4 Echo

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

and as much as i always felt the AT545 to be adequete.. wow what a different an MT-643 makes.. or an allison 1000/2000/3000..


I can say after having had 2 busses with AT545s that Nuked.. and then Swapping the transmissions out.. that transmissions make a HUGE difference..



the real comparison (as john can attest to) is having the SAME bus with a 545 then with a 643 or other lockup...



im on my first really long road trip through varying terrain with my DT360 and a MT643 vs the 545.. its a whole different bus.. I pulled Jellico mountain foot to the floor in 90 degree heat at about 53 MPH.. my temp gauge reached the center which on my dash is about 195 or so.. my fan finally did kick in but didnt stay in long... previously my fan was roaring the whole way up and I was going 43 or 44 maybe..



my MPGs have improved a lot.. im driving this bus comfortably at 65 where previously it really stressed the drivetrain and got terrible mileage doing so.. I was always against my rev limiter (2800) at 65.. and alowed down on every bridge incline, to the point I just started driving that bus at 55-60.. this trip at 65 im at 2600 RPM and holding my own.. using almost no oil and getting 2MPG better than I did before..



similar results were recorded in my red bus that has a T-444E when I swapped its AT545 for a 6 speed Built allison 1000 (very similar to a 2000 series).. that bus improved in the same ways...



-Christopher

I've got a really sweet Earl's cooler to add to my 545. Since its a reman I am inclined to run it till I can't stand to anymore.
But man you're right- a 643 would REALLY be a perfect upgrade. Since I've got 3.42 in the rear and its a 5 window I've got no use for OD.
But I'm so behind on bus stuff that simply getting it painted is a daunting task.

One of these days I truly hope to be able to fully enjoy this bus.

[HazMatt]

I have indulged in risk-taking behavior, usually following a protracted cost-benefit analysis.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

how daring are you? we couple pump up your triple 4 Echo

Naturally, if you Double Dog dare me, testosterone poisoning dictates I must perforce accept the challenge!
Pumping it fulla steroids surely sounds intriguing, so long as there aren't any subsequent *ahem* performance issues... [emoji43]

[SolomonEagle]

I would also add that older mechanical injection engines tend to last longer and be more simple to diagnose and repair.. atleast such has been my experience in the case of the Cummins and dt series engines. I would go for a dt466 over a dt466e any day..same goes for the Cummins. a little puff of smoke at take off is more than an acceptable trade-off for the mechanical reliability the older engines provide. Another note when comparing the mpg of the Cummins to the dt360.. much of that has to do with gearing weight of bus, and transmissions available. They are incredibly similar and comprable engines. though the Cummins has much larger aftermarket support, the Dt has wet sleeves..which in them selves, have pro's and conn's

[SolomonEagle]

You also forgot to mention that Ford/newholland "Brazilian" diesel that Ford used. Great engine, though the lucans gurling brakes of that era really suck. Basically, stick to any of the inline six cylinder turbo diesel engines and you can't go wrong

[Jpitman]

As a new member and getting ready to build I needed this info it should be on the top of the first page

[Fox Slider]

Good lookn out in the notes.

[Polarweasel]

Thread is now stickied… better late than never

[Dre@mweavers]

Thanks for this!!
I'm just unexpectedly ahead of schedule and can start researching to shop asap,

[@mo.ben216]

Originally Posted by Beeb

Hi everyone!

I am fairly new to the Skoolie life (got our bus on August 1st!). And I don't have much to contribute, just lots to learn. But I figured I'd make a post with the notes I took when I was researching what kind of bus to buy. Most of my notes are just quotes I wrote down as I browsed through this forum, and I included a few links where I gathered my info from. Just hoping this info all being in one place can help someone else who is trying to figure out where to begin like I was just a month or so ago!

For those who are looking to buy a bus and wondering where to start, I recommend first figuring out what you're looking for in your bus - what engine, what transmission, what body-type, etc. I'm hoping this post can help you figure out what you're looking for!


And I also definitely invite anyone else to contribute their thoughts as well! To all of you who have contributed in various threads in the past, and thereby helped me pick out our beautiful DT-466/Allison 2500/International:


Also, if you drive a bus with an AT-545 or something else on here that's marked as bad: no hard feelings! These are all just notes I've taken on other people's opinions! I'd love to hear your thoughts on your own experience!


BUS ENGINES:


http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f33/wh...-for-3878.html
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f9/eng...ing-14415.html

- dt466 is widely considered the best skoolie bus engine because of longevity, durability, and readily available parts; "best medium-duty engine ever built, bar none"; an excellent cold-starter; "Pretty much any variant of the dt466 should serve you well. Check for coolant in the oil (usually indicates cylinder liner seals leaking, rebuild in order to fix) but aside from that, I believe these engines can go a million miles if properly cared for"; known as one of the top 5 best engines ever made

- dt466e is the upgraded version of the 466. Also excellent, slightly more powerful and efficient and cleaner burning. Has more moving parts, and parts tend to be a bit pricier as well.

- dt360 is nearly identical to the 466, but w/ less horsepower, less displacement, and slightly better fuel mileage (though not all agree)

- Cummins 5.9 gets way better fuel economy than dt360, and is available w/ more hp than 360. Parts are available everywhere. At least some consider this their favorite engine; the older 12V 6BT mechanical engines are less money and use a bit less fuel than the late-1998 and newer 24-valve ISB's.

- Cummins 8.3 is the 5.9's big brother; excellent engine, though rare in buses. Potentially same things as "ISC" ??Not sure about that.

- One person says he would tend to stay away from any v8 diesel

- 9.0 International is rumored to be a boat anchor, but a very fuel efficient boat anchor; "I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me"

- Stay away from detroit diesel engines

- International's 6.9 and 7.3 IDI engines aren't bad, but are unforgiving of abuse or neglect. Would recommend PLENTY of service records before buying one. Not especially powerful, especially in mountains (no turbo)

- T444E came out around 1995 to replace the 7.3 IDI and is more durable and usually more powerful (170 or 190hp, but any dealer can turn it up to 210), not as forgiving as the 466, but not bad. They run hot, especially climbing hills. This is normal and won't hurt anything.

- Cummins 555ci is worse than the 9.0 International

- CAT engines have proprietary parts, must be purchased from a Cat dealer, tend to be more expensive. Many people have these in their skoolies, but there are also a number of horror stories


BUS TRANSMISSIONS

- AT545 - avoid. doesn't lock up, which makes them pretty dismal on the highway & in the hills. Have never seen a dt466 (engine) with an AT545.

- Allison MT643 - far superior to AT545. Does lock up in high gear.

- Aim for one of Allison's 1000,2000, 2500, or 3000 series

- The difference between these of interest to skoolies are horsepower and torque limits. If it came in the bus with the engine, it's fine. These are generally the preferred automatics installed in school buses in the last 25 years.

- The 1000 & 2500 series are 5-speed. They are able to run deep axle gears around-town, but still run at normal highway speeds without revving the engine on the governor.

- MD3060 - not sure much about this, but some people said that a dt466 with a MD3060 is "near a dream drivetrain"

- Another quote: "Cummins 8.3 w/ MD3060 transmission is probably the best engine and trans combo available in a school bus"

- Voith Transmission - uncommon and expensive to repair. Avoid.


Benefits of manual transmission:

- Longevity - treat it well and you'll get way more life out of a manual. Auto transmissions rely on belts/bands which create a lot of heat and friction. Just a matter of time till something gives.

- Service - Manual transmissions are easier to work on, lots of full time mechanics won't touch the inside of an auto transmission, they send them out.

- Control - being able to control shift points and clutch release rate is great for towing or driving in the snow/down steep grades. If an automatic decides to shift on you harshly at the wrong time in the snow it can initiate a spin.

- Even with a broken manual transmission, there's a good chance you can still limp it home, also allows the option of pop starting it if you find yourself with a dead battery

Miscellaneous Notes:

- Biggest favor you can do for yourself if you buy an auto is install an external transmission cooler and a transmission temp gauge. Make sure to check your transmission fluid regularly both for level and odor. Heat equals death to these things.

http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f6/which-bus-22967.html

- "If you want to go to national parks, stay under 35ft for sure"

- "A rear engine is a lot quieter to drive, but can't have a garage in the back"

- "Get it checked out mechanically FOR SURE unless you're a diesel mechanic"

- "Buy from a rust free area. If you want a bus equipped for the mountains, buy a bus that comes from the mountains. You aren't going to find a bus with auto chains, sanders, and a transmission for the mountains in Kansas. A transmission that is good in Colorado isn't going to run 75 on the freeway for hours happily."

- "Check the code on the tires for the date they were manufactured"

How does one find a manual transmission bus? I've searched IAAI, GovDeals, and Copart. None note transmission type.
I'm seeking flat-nose front-engine manual transmission, in the hopes to convert to electric and build a near to net-zero adventure home.

[Tejon7]

Originally Posted by moben44146@gmail.com

How does one find a manual transmission bus? I've searched IAAI, GovDeals, and Copart. None note transmission type.
I'm seeking flat-nose front-engine manual transmission, in the hopes to convert to electric and build a near to net-zero adventure home.

They're rare, so just keep trying is my only advice. Instead of a good answer, I have a question to pose back to you. Why does the transmission matter if you're converting to electric? That's a very ambitious project and I have no idea about the specifics, but I kinda assumed that with an electric motor you can delete the transmission altogether.

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by moben44146@gmail.com

How does one find a manual transmission bus? I've searched IAAI, GovDeals, and Copart. None note transmission type.
I'm seeking flat-nose front-engine manual transmission, in the hopes to convert to electric and build a near to net-zero adventure home.

I have seen very few Post-1990 manual transmission buses. A few, but very few. I'd say broaden your search with more sites.

Happy hunting!