Diesel Engine Gauges EGT, J1708 & ODB

[Simplicity]

I'm looking to buy a pyrometer, probably a tranny temp and possibly a fuel pressure gauage.

My bus is a 33' RE, so loooooong wires. But, I was looking at the Edge CSTx and see that it plugs right into the ODB port and then I'm assuming is wireless connection to the monitor.

I tried searching, but could not find an answer to this question. I have a 9 pin J1708 setup. I know there are 9 pin to ODB connectors, but I can't find out if you can use an ODB reader to read J1708 information from the ECM? If so, I then wondered if the wireless signal from the port sending unit would be able to connect to monitor at the front.

I get ODB and J1708 are different protocols. Yet I'm hoping by some miracle there's some way the protocols are translated (as an old tech support guy, I know we translated main frame and mid frame to/from pc all the time.). If so, maybe I could use something like the Edge for RT engine info.

If not, I'm looking at TowMax gauges. Any input on gauges is appreciated.

Steve

[s2mikon]

For pyrometers use isspro. They have excellent support and good quality. And are in Portland OR.

[Booyah45828]

Cadillackid has a digital dash that he has setup using the diagnostic port under the dash. Search around on here and read through his posts to find what he used and is currently using. Maybe he'll chime in.

There are a few companies out there that have built hardware that is designed to connect to your 7 and 9 pin ports and communicate through them. You then use their software on a tablet to display the data you're looking for.

Bluefire is one such company, VMSpc is another, as is scangauge D.

I don't believe any edge product will read j1708/1939 protocol, so 7 or 9 pin to obd2 adapter would be worthless for that.

But those products only work if the oem has a sensor to read what you're after. I don't believe a t444e has a pyrometer, and depending on your transmission, you might not have a trans temp sensor either.

I assume when you say towmax, you mean the maxtow gauges from glowshift? I've read too many negative reviews of glowshift products to trust their gauges. So I'd much rather prefer isspro or autometer. If you're looking for something cheap, marshall instruments has a selection of auto gauges that seem to be reliable and affordable.

As far as additional gauges that I have. I have oil temp, trans temp currently installed, and will install pyrometer, boost, and fuel pressure when I get around to my turbo install this spring/summer.

[Simplicity]

Thanks Booyah.

I'll search again. Searching through Christopher's posts might take a year.

Yes, MaxTow. My friend installed three of their gauges a month ago, but the test of time hasn't been completed.

I looked at isspro. $$$$$, but what's the cost of an high pressure pump, melting something, etc., right. I'll look at your more budget friendly suggestion and the tablet option.

Can you use a tablet as a monitor for a back up camera?? Yeah, gotta be able too. Think positive!

[cadillackid]

I have an autometer PYRO gauge.. I like it alot.. easy to install, looks good at night and i havent melted any pistons so it must work


https://www.jegs.com/i/Auto-Meter/105/3646/10002/-1

[desrtdog]

Just installed a boost gauge (this one) on my bus and considering installing a pyrometer (this one or this one). My engine is currently rated at 220 Hp, and I have 6th unlocked on my trans...not certain that I will up the Hp, but figure it's probably better to have a bit more data, especially when traveling in the mountains.

My questions/concerns are around location and tapping into the manifold...watched Chuck Cassidy's video on the install (drilling/tapping the manifold in place) and have looked through previous posts here, so kind of have an idea on this, but a little nervous about a manifold-in-place install...also not really feeling too inclined to try to pull it apart myself.

Looking for any advice / guidance / encouragement(?) from the experts here...

Also, of the two pyrometers, the lower priced one has a warning indicator which it seems will allow a relay to trigger something - although not sure what I would use that for. (Thought I read on one of the posts somewhere that @cadillackid uses it to trigger a downshift...how?)

Thanks!

[nikitis]

Just a correction on the j1708. 9 ports are j1939

They include two pins for data to handle j1708 devices networks. In case the truck had both.

J1708 had 6 pins and 4 pins. The 4 pins have the 6 pin connector but only 4 pins of the 6 are populated. Power/ground/2data lines.

Then there is are J1939. 9 Port connectors, 7 of which are for j1939 protocols/power/gnd, 2 of 9 for j1708 backwards compatibility.

There is also an aftermarket 9 Port adapter which uses only 4 pins of 9 and is really just a j1708 only for modern devices designed with a 9 Port interface but support j1708 only trucks which makes use of the 2 pin locations for the j1708 on a j1939 plug. I e. A Bluefire device.

Confusing I know.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by desrtdog

Just installed a boost gauge (this one) on my bus and considering installing a pyrometer (this one or this one). My engine is currently rated at 220 Hp, and I have 6th unlocked on my trans...not certain that I will up the Hp, but figure it's probably better to have a bit more data, especially when traveling in the mountains.

My questions/concerns are around location and tapping into the manifold...watched Chuck Cassidy's video on the install (drilling/tapping the manifold in place) and have looked through previous posts here, so kind of have an idea on this, but a little nervous about a manifold-in-place install...also not really feeling too inclined to try to pull it apart myself.

Looking for any advice / guidance / encouragement(?) from the experts here...

Also, of the two pyrometers, the lower priced one has a warning indicator which it seems will allow a relay to trigger something - although not sure what I would use that for. (Thought I read on one of the posts somewhere that @cadillackid uses it to trigger a downshift...how?)

Thanks!

I have an autometer.. "comp II" I think its called.. pyro.. I have tested the warning feature on it connected up to a gear-down "wire" on my allison.. so if im into it hard and possibly over the normal shift schedule but not high enough RPM where a downshift will trigger an overspeed.. then the pyro sailing can trigger a downshift.. this is something not near as relevant now that I re-geared the bus since my top speed is no longer 70 MPH i dont have as much need or ability to downshift as much but its something you can do if your allison supports it.. an MD3060 probably does..

[desrtdog]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I have an autometer.. "comp II" I think its called.. pyro.. I have tested the warning feature on it connected up to a gear-down "wire" on my allison.. so if im into it hard and possibly over the normal shift schedule but not high enough RPM where a downshift will trigger an overspeed.. then the pyro sailing can trigger a downshift.. this is something not near as relevant now that I re-geared the bus since my top speed is no longer 70 MPH i dont have as much need or ability to downshift as much but its something you can do if your allison supports it.. an MD3060 probably does..

Thanks. How would I know if my trans supports it? (I have a 2500 series, so the t-handle shifter, not the push pad.) is this something that needs an TCM calibration to be able to do? Also, this downshift “wire” - where/what is it?
Lastly, any advice on drilling/tapping the manifold?

[Booyah45828]

Drill it so the tip of the probe is placed in the center of the pipe. Yes, you'll likely have to choose between the front or back cylinders, but either of those will work fine. (I'd choose the back because IMO they run hotter)

Your engine in the sig(6.7isb) uses a VGT turbo. Very easy to ruin with shavings and very expensive to replace, so I understand your hesitancy. I've heard all sorts of tricks to doing it, from drilling with the engine running so that the exhaust is under pressure and blowing the shavings out(it'd be under very little, if any pressure imo), greasing the bit to catch the shavings(not a bad idea), using a magnet(also not a bad idea), all the way to rigging up an air compressor to pressurize the tailpipe and exhaust system(better then running the engine IMO).

Only surefire way to do it without sending even one shaving through the turbo would be to remove the turbo, but that's a challenge in itself if you've never done it.

You can mount it in the pipe after the turbo too. It will read accurately but cooler, and you won't have to worry about removing or ruining the turbo. It's not ideal, but neither is forking over thousands for a reman turbo.

Don't follow cassidy's video. The dumbass drilled in the merge of the manifold and his pyrometer isn't in the exhaust gas flow. I and a handful of others commented that on his video and it fell on deaf ears. He might as well have not installed one at all.

There's no problem in not knowing everything. But blindly plowing ahead when others who know better tell you that you're wrong is ignorant at best.

Skoolie "experts" at work I guess

[cadillackid]

I greased my drill bit.. and also had cut down a shop vac hose pole with a hole in it for my drill bit to fit through.. I gorilla taped the shop vac hose in the vicinity.. had to use an extra long drill bit as there was no way to get my drill motor in from the bottom up close and have the vacuum hose in there..



drill bit went through hole in shop vac hose and with suction on i figured the shavings would tend to get sucked away..


I dont have a VGT so it wasnt quite as critical..


after the hole was drilled I did start the engine for a short bit figuring the least back pressure would be the hole I just drilled.. no idea if anything came out as I wasnt down there when i started it.



I also picked for my engine where the likiliehood of hottest exhaust would be.. id rather the gauge read a bit high and I back out of it early than the other way around

[s2mikon]

There is a lot of chatter about pre turbo vs post turbo and here is my take based on my personal experience not “internet knowledge”. I worked in a shop in the 70’s that liked installing them pre turbo. Owner thought it was more accurate even though both Cummins and Detroit said post turbo. Anyway one of the probes broke off destroyed the turbine and compressor blades because it went out of balance. The aluminum from the compressor blades went into the cylinders and scored the liners so we got to rebuild a fairly fresh engine. It was an expensive lesson. That is when we began changing every thing to post turbo. We had 5 or 6 trucks out in the junk pile that were 8-71 Detroit diesels that had dual left bank / right bank pyrometers. I removed 3 of them and we gauged up 3 trucks pre and post turbo to read them at once. Here is what we learned. At full load we saw a 300 plus or minus 25 degree drop pre vs post and at idle less that 100 degrees plus or minus 50 degrees. Those values could have been due to the slight differences of distance to the turbo. For as long as I could remember the numbers given out by engine manufactures were post turbo and were 1000 degrees max.

One of the pitfalls of reading 1 cylinder is if it is running lame or gets lame your reading won’t help you especially if you are driving it by the pyro. Otherwise known as over fueling it. I have been on installations that every cylinder was monitored to be sure we were clicking on all 16 cylinders.

Today’s engines don’t come with pyrometers because the PCM monitors and adjusts as you drive to keep it in the green. I installed a pyrometer in a late model (2006) truck with a Cummins M-11 and you could see it cut fuel just by watching the pyrometer.

If it is your ride do anything you want, you get to pay for it but, I would heed Booyah’s advise.

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Don't follow cassidy's video. The dumbass drilled in the merge of the manifold and his pyrometer isn't in the exhaust gas flow. I and a handful of others commented that on his video and it fell on deaf ears. He might as well have not installed one at all.

There's no problem in not knowing everything. But blindly plowing ahead when others who know better tell you that you're wrong is ignorant at best.

Skoolie "experts" at work I guess

I had to laugh at this. I was like oh no, not there... I give it to chuck for design of interiors, he does okay, but his mechanical knowledge is nothing to imitate.

Not that mine are amazing either, but I was able to tackle my king pin issue on my own, we basically have the same bus, him and I (His green bus) and his king pins were shot too, but he had to bring a mechanic out of retirement to do his job for him because he couldn't do it himself. His pins even came out easy on their own, where as I had to conjour up and weld up a king pin press from an i-Beam and 20 ton jack. Point is I was willing to get in there and do it myself and he didn't. He even had it easier job.

[desrtdog]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Drill it so the tip of the probe is placed in the center of the pipe. Yes, you'll likely have to choose between the front or back cylinders, but either of those will work fine. (I'd choose the back because IMO they run hotter)

Back is the only really accessible location without removing a bunch of "stuff"

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Your engine in the sig(6.7isb) uses a VGT turbo. Very easy to ruin with shavings and very expensive to replace

Exactly my issue...I am not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination, so keen on experimenting and having my bus o.o.c. for an extended period, or having to drop $$$$ into a new turbo...

Originally Posted by cadillackid

...also had cut down a shop vac hose pole with a hole in it for my drill bit to fit through.. I gorilla taped the shop vac hose in the vicinity.. had to use an extra long drill bit as there was no way to get my drill motor in from the bottom up close and have the vacuum hose in there..

Had not considered that, but seems like a better option than just trying to vacuum up the bits after drilling...issue again would be access as it's pretty crowded...

[desrtdog]

Originally Posted by s2mikon

There is a lot of chatter about pre turbo vs post turbo and here is my take based on my personal experience not “internet knowledge”. I worked in a shop in the 70’s that liked installing them pre turbo. Owner thought it was more accurate even though both Cummins and Detroit said post turbo ..... We had 5 or 6 trucks out in the junk pile that were 8-71 Detroit diesels that had dual left bank / right bank pyrometers. I removed 3 of them and we gauged up 3 trucks pre and post turbo to read them at once. Here is what we learned. At full load we saw a 300 plus or minus 25 degree drop pre vs post and at idle less that 100 degrees plus or minus 50 degrees. Those values could have been due to the slight differences of distance to the turbo. For as long as I could remember the numbers given out by engine manufactures were post turbo and were 1000 degrees max.

One of the pitfalls of reading 1 cylinder is if it is running lame or gets lame your reading won’t help you especially if you are driving it by the pyro. Otherwise known as over fueling it. I have been on installations that every cylinder was monitored to be sure we were clicking on all 16 cylinders.

Today’s engines don’t come with pyrometers because the PCM monitors and adjusts as you drive to keep it in the green. I installed a pyrometer in a late model (2006) truck with a Cummins M-11 and you could see it cut fuel just by watching the pyrometer.

If it is your ride do anything you want, you get to pay for it but, I would heed Booyah’s advise.

Really appreciate all of the feedback...

So, after reading the previous posts, and yours, I am probably more inclined to install after the turbo...based on your real world test, seems that if I installed post turbo and put a 1000 F (or 950 F alarm point) that maybe it would provide a decent indication of what's going on pre-turbo, perhaps without risking engine damage. For clarification, does this mean the the probe is in the exhaust pipe? (Coming out of the turbo, my pipe is wrapped with a heat shield cloth all the way down...pic to follow.)

Curious about your comment, "Today’s engines don’t come with pyrometers because the PCM monitors and adjusts as you drive to keep it in the green"...
for my education, what is "PCM"?..."??? control module"? Also, I have a 2009 engine with EGR and DPF - does this imply that my engine has such controls, and is this still the case if mods are made to the TCM whereby 6th is open and the bus likes to run in 6th, not really downshifting in a headwind unless I jam on the accelerator?...

I think the end game for me is to have the option to increase the power from 220 Hp to get a little more in the mountains and on west TX rollers...

Again, thanks to all for your input/insights...

[s2mikon]

Yes the exhaust pipe coming out of the turbo. As close to the turbo as possible. PCM, ECM same thing. I don't think that engine manufactures explain what they do as far as adjustments on the fly, but all the evidence I have seen, and in driving them is that they do in fact de-rate or cut fuel in circumstances where they would overheat the exhaust gas in their engines. This is one of the ways they were able to get some of the horsepower figures that they did. I was driving a new 2007 C-13 525 hp cat in a 18 wheeler that would de-rate on the drop of a hat if you didn't down shift on a hot day. None of the drivers liked them. Luckily they were a piece of crap engine and every one of them had catastrophic failures before 300,000 miles. Our little medium duty LPG delivery trucks had the C-7 and they weren't much better. When Cat got out of the on road truck engine business it was a good day. It was because of the emission crap. The old 3406 E engines were a million mile engine. Really sad.

[desrtdog]

Pics of the manifold…right trying to get between everything


Blue arrow on 2nd pic is about where I’d tap after the turbo then…
What is the cloth on the pipe - a heat shield?

[Albatross]

Originally Posted by desrtdog

What is the cloth on the pipe - a heat shield?

Yes, that is almost certainly a ceramic cloth wrap that's primarily designed to keep the heat inside the exhaust pipe--or more specifically, to keep anyone playing around on the inside from removing several layers of skin if/when they accidentally brush a knuckle up against it after it shows up to a shop.



Personally, I would do my best to keep as much of it on there as possible.

[Booyah45828]

It's exhaust wrap. I thought it was always fiberglass but it might be ceramic.

It's wrapped to lower underhood temps. On new buses they do it to maintain exhaust temp all the way back to the DPF/DOC to allow it to work effectively. Although it was done before the advent of emissions because FE buses get plenty warm on a summer day as is, every little bit can help. The fabric can be cut with a sharp box cutter, and then use regular hose clamps to replace it and hold it back on the pipe. If you really want to be fancy you can remove the hose clamp in the picture and then rewrap it in a way so that you don't have to cut it.

Modern engines are tuned in a way that they shouldn't overheat exhaust gases, even if lugged. In the old days they fed engines fuel and then waited for the turbo to catch up. The EPA frowns upon that so any engine made in the last 25 years shouldn't smoke. Smoke is typically an indicator of high exhaust temp FYI. If yours has a dpf there is a pyrometer(3 actually) already in the exhaust, just down a bit farther near the filter.

Adding a tuner changes all of that. I've never tuned a bus before, I'm sure there is something available, you just have to find it. When tuning a pyro is always recommended, as the tune is no longer as egt safe typically.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

It's exhaust wrap. I thought it was always fiberglass but it might be ceramic.

It's wrapped to lower underhood temps. On new buses they do it to maintain exhaust temp all the way back to the DPF/DOC to allow it to work effectively. Although it was done before the advent of emissions because FE buses get plenty warm on a summer day as is, every little bit can help. The fabric can be cut with a sharp box cutter, and then use regular hose clamps to replace it and hold it back on the pipe. If you really want to be fancy you can remove the hose clamp in the picture and then rewrap it in a way so that you don't have to cut it.

Modern engines are tuned in a way that they shouldn't overheat exhaust gases, even if lugged. In the old days they fed engines fuel and then waited for the turbo to catch up. The EPA frowns upon that so any engine made in the last 25 years shouldn't smoke. Smoke is typically an indicator of high exhaust temp FYI. If yours has a dpf there is a pyrometer(3 actually) already in the exhaust, just down a bit farther near the filter.

Adding a tuner changes all of that. I've never tuned a bus before, I'm sure there is something available, you just have to find it. When tuning a pyro is always recommended, as the tune is no longer as egt safe typically.

very few if any tuners exist for the DPF equipped stuff.. there were some but the EPA has run most of them out of business.. they are "obtainable" through unofficial channels.. but the EPA started going after individuals just driving around who may habve said something on social media or posted in a forum about their truck being deleted...



to me the most modern stuff made in the last 5 or 6 years has pretty much gotten emissions controls right enough and offers way more power than id ever use (pickup truck wise).. that I no longer see a need to just delete a truck.. of course everyone can drum up a premature failure online of someone's truck but they get rarer as the industry gets better at it...