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Old 09-17-2017, 02:27 PM   #1
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Emissions delete?

Hey Everyone,

Over in the Non Affiliated Bus thread a mention was made of deleting emissions equipment being fairly straightforward on the newer buses.

Earlier this year I looked at a number of 2008-2010 International buses that had around 100k miles on them and they sold cheap. The seller said that they had "exhaust issues".

In my pea brain, that sounds like emissions equipment trouble. That got me thinking about buying cheap newer buses with emissions trouble, deleting the emissions equipment and selling the buses into markets that don't require it. Such as export, offroad or ag.

I set out on a quest for details on removing the EGR, DPF and DEF equipment.

I found plenty of info regarding Diesel pickups and a bit regarding class 8 trucks.

Not a bit about ISB, ISC or MaxForce DT.

What have you all found on this subject?

Thanks.

S.
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Old 09-17-2017, 06:18 PM   #2
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I believe that the laws are federal and if you were somehow found buying vehicles, taking the emissions off and selling them im not sure how it would pan out for you... I'm not a government official or a lawyer but I would look into it some before going much further. That said

The ISB should be basically the same engine a truck would have so support should be available

In the years you are talking about I think an ecm tune would be necessary. This company was at the top of my google search for "2009 Cummins ISC delete

https://truckecmtunes.com/cummins-dp...cr-delete.html

I'm not promoting them just letting you know someone out there will tune an ISC ECM.

My truck is a 2010 and I opted to buy someone else's tune. The cost of equipment to make my own would have been almost the same and who knows how many engines were compromised before the company I bought mine from had glowing reviews... and I'm kind of lazy.

Deleting an engine by faking out a few sensors can be done fairly cheap but buying someone's tune for a newer "smarter" computer is expensive. Im sure if you have the right skill set or know someone who does it could be a little more affordable
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:39 PM   #3
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Removing emissions equipment could be a Federal crime, especially if you are reselling equipment that has had the emissions equipment removed.

In CA where common sense left a generation ago, the smog rules are a labyrinth overseen by a byzantine bureaucracy that has nothing to do with clean air but all about achieving certain political goals.

One of the requirements that are needed to pass a tail pipe sniff test is the visual test.

Regardless of how clean the exhaust might be, if the inspector can't see the factory smog equipment they won't ever test the tailpipe and then you fail. If you are working on a mid- to late-'70's car finding a correct smog pump and making it work is next to impossible but without it you can't get a license for the car.

2-cycle Detroit Diesels do tend to burn a little smokey but with some work they can be massaged to the point where their exhaust is as clean or cleaner than any other heavy duty diesel. But as far as CARB is concerned, operating a 2-cycle DD is akin to raping little kids.

I suppose the reason why I have said all of the above is to say that removing smog gear and getting the resulting engine to run clean and reliably is not all that difficult. But getting it to pass the sniff test if it also includes a visual test is a non-starter.

Good luck!
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:43 PM   #4
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new goal in life, motor home powered by a 2 stroke Detroit for a trip to CA
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:47 PM   #5
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I believe this is a hypothetical discussion that pertains to export and off-road only vehicles.



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Old 09-17-2017, 08:58 PM   #6
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new goal in life, motor home powered by a 2 stroke Detroit for a trip to CA
Like mine?

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Old 09-18-2017, 06:36 AM   #7
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new goal in life, motor home powered by a 2 stroke Detroit for a trip to CA
You and me both, man!
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Old 09-18-2017, 08:59 AM   #8
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It is fairly straightforward. Remove the components, cap the holes, replace the filters, flash the ecm, and you have a new truck with 90's emission regulations. The issue with that is it's against federal law and getting caught could mean big fines and a bus that isn't allowed to move unless unmodified.

Now, not everywhere inspects exhaust emissions like CA or NY, so a lot of people get away with it. There are tuners all over that can take your ecm, flash on new programming, and that will allow you to run with emissions equipment removed. Cost varies but so do results, the wrong tune with the wrong specs can be catastrophic in a matter of seconds. So be careful of who you use.

What you'll eventually realize is that few people can actually write successful tunes and that most "tuners" end up copying from those guys and calling it their own.

But, at the end of the day, it's all still illegal. I read online the other day that dealerships are going to stop accepting deleted diesel trucks as trade ins because they can't resell them when they don't meet emissions, and that the cost involved in fixing them was big $$$$.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni John View Post
Like mine?

John
How does that work in your case? I imagine they're getting rid of the older busses due to CA requiring older busses to meet modern emissions. Do you have to do testing? Or are you exempt from it being that it's an RV now?

I like the older 2 stroke detroits. Not only for power and the sound aspect(no engine sounds better to my ears), but they seemed to be pretty reliable engines if maintained correctly.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:22 AM   #10
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Emissions

Back in the early 80's I was working at a full-service gas station in Tucson- Chevron. I was a pump jockey- we did belts, hoses, wipers and a lot of tire repair.

One slow Sunday I had the station to myself and my buddy Dan came by with his new Golden Eagle CJ jeep- V8, stick. Nice ride. He wanted me to get rid of the catalytic converter guts so he'd have 'moor power'.

1978-jeep-golden-eagle.jpg

We put the jeep on the lift and saw the convertor had a metal plug in it, we removed it in a destructive fashion and some white beads came out- cup or so. Wanting to get all the power-robbing beads out, maybe if we start the engine it will help? So he fires-up the beast and out sprays millions of tiny white balls- all over the Service Station bays. We were laughing so hard as we tried our best to clean them all, but the mechanics were finding those beads in corners and toolboxes for months- none of them had clue what them white balls were.

Yes- illegal...to take parts off my car or hack my phone. Duly noted.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:25 AM   #11
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Thanks for the links!

I had done a pretty (I thought) search earlier this year and came up dry.

As far as it being the same on an ISB bus as a Dodge truck. They are not the same. The hardware pieces may fit but the computer is different. Same with later T444E, VT365 & Powerstroke. The Ford & Dodge engines are enough different than their International & Cummins cousins that the programmers & software are different.

Per my original post: My interest is in providing modified buses into markets where they can be sold & operated legally.

Thanks again.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:34 AM   #12
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Rusty,

It looks like Venom Diesel has custom programming for not only the range of MaxxForce but also for ISB,ISM & ISX.

Thanks again.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:53 AM   #13
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Booyah,

My bus is presently registered as an Auto (it's not yet registered as a Housecar / Motorhome), and California does not require smog checks or any special emission control equipment on 1990 diesel cars. Yes, older buses in commercial or school service, especially the few remaining 2-stroke Crowns and Gilligs, must be off the road soon, thus the increase in the number of Crowns for sale recently.

The general consensus of thought among the folk on the BCM forum, a lot of whom have older 2-stroke buses, is that CA won't require 2-stroke RVs to be legislated off the road due to the political clout of their owners and affiliated trade and lobby groups. For the relatively few 2-strokes still running on CA roads, probably no more than a few hundred RVs / bus conversions now, it wouldn't make any difference anyway to the state's air quality if they were all banned. Heck, most fast food places produce way more smoke and particulates than my bus does! I'll still run my Detroit for as long as I can, and if it craps out on me or needs to be replaced then I'll consider a Series 50 and new transmission/axle from a transit bus.

John
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
That got me thinking about buying cheap newer buses with emissions trouble, deleting the emissions equipment and selling the buses into markets that don't require it. Such as export, offroad or ag.
In the late 70s and early 80s Ford had a really bad emission systems. In the 90s many times emission parts would go out and be more then the vehicle was worth to fix them. I bought a few late 70s and early 80s vehicles for a touch more then scrap price then got a handful of pipe plugs and vacuum plugs and had a great running car or truck for dirt cheap.

The next state over had no emissions and cheap registration.
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
Rusty,

It looks like Venom Diesel has custom programming for not only the range of MaxxForce but also for ISB,ISM & ISX.

Thanks again.
Sounds like the right place. I'd be interested in a seat-of-the-pants comparison. I have a Crown Vic police car with limited emissions and you can tell the difference in the programming/flow.
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:49 PM   #16
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Sounds like the right place. I'd be interested in a seat-of-the-pants comparison. I have a Crown Vic police car with limited emissions and you can tell the difference in the programming/flow.
I have driven a Dodge 3500 with full delete plus programmer, intake & exhaust. The only 1 ton truck I have ever drifted..... Is that diesel smoke or tire smoke I see in the rear view???
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:25 PM   #17
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I have driven a Dodge 3500 with full delete plus programmer, intake & exhaust. The only 1 ton truck I have ever drifted..... Is that diesel smoke or tire smoke I see in the rear view???
Both the black is diesel white is tires but that kind of driving negates all the reliability you are trying to gain...
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:28 PM   #18
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Both the black is diesel white is tires but that kind of driving negates all the reliability you are trying to gain...
No doubt!

I am not in the habit of "rolling coal", smoking tires or driving sideways in an 8000 lb vehicle. That was my "what happens if I set this on 5?" experience. It was kind of fun though....

The smoke question was in jest.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
Per my original post: My interest is in providing modified buses into markets where they can be sold & operated legally.

Thanks again.
Legally? It can't be done.
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Old 09-18-2017, 06:19 PM   #20
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Legally? It can't be done.
I humbly disagree.

It is done legally all of the time. You cannot legally operate the modified vehicle on US public roads. Racing, export and ag usage is permitted.
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