Power steering fluid damage of injectors?

[rossvtaylor]

Hi all...

Remember that Freightliner with the Mercedes engine that had some issues on a cross-country trip, then stopped at my house for 3 nights and then wouldn't start? It was throwing ECM communications error codes.

Well, the very sweet owner had it towed from Flagstaff AZ (where there are NO Mercedes mechanics) to Las Vegas, where they live and where a shop said they'd work on it.

Well...the shop is now telling this young lady that the diesel fuel injectors are all damaged from power steering fluid...and that the power steering fluid must have been added (to the tank? the filter?) quite a while ago and driven like that for some time, to cause the injectors to fail.

And...they're telling her it will be $25,000 to fix it.

So, first off, if someone in the past were stupid enough to put power steering fluid in the tank or even prime the fuel filter with it would that damage the injectors?

Second, does anyone know a reliable Mercedes mechanic in Vegas?

[Booyah45828]

25k

No, I find that extremely hard to believe. Normal power steering fluid is a petroleum based oil, with different additives to reduce foaming and aeration. I don't think it'd cause injector failure unless you ran exclusively on USED power steering fluid. New stuff causing issues I don't believe at all. There are different varieties of power steering fluid, but all are still petroleum based AFAIK.

Sorry but no.

I'm not all that familiar with Mercedes diesels, but I really have a hard time seeing how communication issues translates to needing 6 new injectors, and that those injectors were ruined by running power steering fluid in the fuel

What codes does/did she have? Maybe we'll try the skoolie.net remote fix?

[BarnYardCamp]

without some complicated chemical analysis, how would the mechanic know it was caused by power steering fluid?

[joeblack5]

He is just throwing a high number at them to get rid of it.
You could not add enough power steering fluid to a tank of diesel to get damage.. now if it would. Have been silicone brake fluid??

They need to call around to someone who has the software to check the motor and who wants to work.
By now that tow costed them more then buying a clone software package on ebay..
However sweet , if you want to loose money, this is the way to do it.

Johan

[rossvtaylor]

Thanks, guys. Not knowing what power steering fluid is made of, I wasn't sure. I know brake fluid can be corrosive, but I wasn't sure about the power steering fluid.

And I did wonder about the suggestion that the injectors were destroyed and that could cause the error codes. I'll look through my notes to find those codes, by the way.

My spidey-sense tingle pegged out from the estimate alone. I looked up the Mercedes injectors and they're about $85 each. If it needs the unit injector pump portion, those are about another $120 each. So, even if it needed both in each cylinder, she's looking at $1200 in parts and what...maybe...4 hours of labor to swap all those out and prime the fuel system? I even confirmed with the owner that she (or they) wasn't mistaken and they meant $2500. Nope, they asked her if she was sitting down and dropped the $25K on her.

[HamSkoolie]

WOW
Sounds like one of those $29.95 quick lube places that end up trying to sell you an air filter, wiper blades, transmission "flush", and everything else including the exhaust doughnuts and blinker fluid.


OR
They decided they don't want to work on it but will for an insane price.


To re engine our DT444E with a rebuilt carrying a 5 year nationwide warranty, parts and labor was estimated at $14,000. Sure it's a Benz but that quote for that work is insanity.


No we don't need an engine but we wanted to know what it would cost should we blow the motor after spending $40k on our build.

[PorchDog]

I assume the bus drove under it's own power into Ross's place. Then it refused to start after sitting 3 days.

I have never seen injectors fail in this manner. How in the world do we go from running down the road, to a no start and it be all 6 injectors?

That shop does not want to work on the bus, and this is a scare tactic. I don't know if this engine is all electronic common rail, or some type of injector operated by a cam-- but this failure smirks (wreaks) of an electrical issue of some kind, or something common to all six injectors not getting adequate fuel, but certainly not that all 6 injectors failed.

Run away! Run Away! As big as Vegas is-- there has to be an independent shop where you can actually talk to the mechanic/owner or the mechanic...

My bet is on some electrical component failure, or an electric pump of some kind.

Shame on these shop guys...

Unfortunately -- these scenarios are becoming more and more common-- as we get more dependent on proprietary systems that are pay to play from the manufacturers. They've got you-- and they know they've got you. No "right to repair" in the larger trucks, heavy equipment, and farm equipment allows us to be basically "held for ransom"....

Rant off...

[Dbacks2k4]

Sounds astronomical but not surprising. My mechanic friend warned me away from Mercedes engines for this very reason. Hopefully they're able to find a good different solution. I don't know much about the chemical properties of power steering fluid, but as you said, even if it was added and corroded some parts, $25k is awfully high for parts and labor. Did the customer send you a copy of the invoice estimate? My guess is they're trying to also replace every potential worn part on that engine (and probably the whole bus) well above and beyond the repairs necessary to get it running. I've seen International/IC dealers do that in the past as well...

[sportyrick]

My injector guy said he has never seen a better fuel injector cleaner than power steering fluid. When my C7 was going south it wouldn't run on all 6 unless I put a quart in the tank at every fill up. Ya it's good stuff. You park a running diesel and it won't start.......something changed in those 3 days and it shouldn't be that hard to run down. Isn't Vegas where those diesel boys built all those big fancy diesel trucks? Help? MU AG engineering boys had a Dodge 12 valve and ran it on only soybean oil for years and I even took a long trip in it, that soybean oil was sooooooo smooth then you switch to diesel and it rattles and rocks like normal then, I was impressed. And some are worrying about power steering fluid, nonsense?

[La Camioneta]

https://www.vanderhaags.com/Search-R...ngine-assembly

MBE906 pull-outs go for ~$7k, remans ~$17k. Something is very wrong with the $25k price.

[rossvtaylor]

The bus owner had another conversation with the shop and they doubled down on the "someone put power steering fluid in the tank, like someone would put sugar in a car, and it had to have happened quite a while ago and driven like that" story. She asked for a breakdown of the estimate and they said they'd have to get that. They definitely want to rip her off... What a shame.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

The bus owner had another conversation with the shop and they doubled down on the "someone put power steering fluid in the tank, like someone would put sugar in a car, and it had to have happened quite a while ago and driven like that" story. She asked for a breakdown of the estimate and they said they'd have to get that. They definitely want to rip her off... What a shame.

Such a shame. I'm curious if they want to charge her to replace kingpins. Seems like a common go-to for a few grand from unsuspecting bus owners (speaking from experience)

[La Camioneta]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

The bus owner had another conversation with the shop and they doubled down on the "someone put power steering fluid in the tank, like someone would put sugar in a car, and it had to have happened quite a while ago and driven like that" story. She asked for a breakdown of the estimate and they said they'd have to get that. They definitely want to rip her off... What a shame.

Old-school diesels can run off atf/power steering fluid. I'll run the occasional quart through my 7.3 PSD since the fuel went ULSD.

Like above its much more likely electrical that killed ALL the injectors. If it was a fuel contamination issue you'd expect damage in the post-combustion emissions part.

[rossvtaylor]

UPDATE: These poor folks... Remember, they drove their newly-purchased bus across the country from NC (or SC) to AZ. They did have some issues on the way and one of them involved loss of a coolant hose, but they said they caught it pretty quickly. And after they got that fixed, they continued their journey without any other issues. They got to AZ after being parked here in AZ for 3 days, it wouldn't start.

So, they got it towed to Vegas where a shop told them the injectors were bad...and could fix it for $25k. They had it towed to another shop in Vegas, Velocity, which is now telling them "the whole engine is shot, the head gasket is blown, and there's coolant all over and a lot of it is scorched." That all seems far fetched, since it sounded fine when they arrived and even with a blown head gasket it should at least start...but nothing.

Anyway, in case you were wondering, these poor kids still aren't up and running. But at least the bus is in Las Vegas where they live.

[Nick5272]

@rossvtaylor I’d love to hear what happened with these folks and what the problem actually was if you know

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

Such a shame. I'm curious if they want to charge her to replace kingpins. Seems like a common go-to for a few grand from unsuspecting bus owners (speaking from experience)

Happening to me right now with the Unsuspecting King Pin replacement. Still in process but doing it myself slowly. Made my own King pin press, The pins are out now and the knuckles have fresh bushings, but haven't pressed the new king pins in just yet.

[Tin Roadtube Vagrant]

Wow, that's a real spun up web.......

I'd be curious also. First thing I'd do is go dip an oil test through my dipstick tube and get that out of the way. $15 is a cheap lie detector test for coolant.

[cadillackid]

I have to wonder sometimes how many shady mechanics are out there that see people coming that know nothing and therefore drum up all kinds of work that needs to be done..



a person could be made to believe injectors are shot on an engine that doesnt start.. but really? all 6 injectors just happen to die 100% completely at once while the bus was parked for 3 days? believeable if it started and ran rough..


these sort of things happen to people at car shops.. a Person DRIVES their car into a shop to have X fixed.. shop calls customer and says hey while we were fixing X we found Y and Y is $$$ in addition to X that is $. customer says nah, Y is fine for now just fix X. shop says but while we were tearing into Y to diagnose it further, part Z broke.. so either you get X,Y and Z fixed or your now non driveable car goes home on a truck at your $....

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I have to wonder sometimes how many shady mechanics are out there that see people coming that know nothing and therefore drum up all kinds of work that needs to be done..



a person could be made to believe injectors are shot on an engine that doesnt start.. but really? all 6 injectors just happen to die 100% completely at once while the bus was parked for 3 days? believeable if it started and ran rough..


these sort of things happen to people at car shops.. a Person DRIVES their car into a shop to have X fixed.. shop calls customer and says hey while we were fixing X we found Y and Y is $$$ in addition to X that is $. customer says nah, Y is fine for now just fix X. shop says but while we were tearing into Y to diagnose it further, part Z broke.. so either you get X,Y and Z fixed or your now non driveable car goes home on a truck at your $....

This is More often than not my experience with mechanics. Sorry to Mechanics, you may not be this way, but there are a lot of bad ones that ruin the image of the profession. You mechanics on here are great, and I would bring my bus to you to have you work on it for sure. You're involved in the community and are a credit to your profession. I've learned to grow a thick skin and start learning a little about my systems so I cannot be taken for a ride as easily. It's served me well and I've saved Literally $1000's of dollars over my lifetime.


I have a Silverado I bought used, and they quoted me $5000 to tidy everything up on initial inspection. The only thing I had them repair was the fuel pump as it did have a leak and I knew about it, and the truck has run for 7 years since with no issues. All the other mess they stated, the Y and Z's were unnecessary.

I had a Toyota Camry I had for 15 years, and the toyota dealership tried to get me to fix all of these problems which weren't problems when I bought it used, but if I can go 15 years without having to fix said issues and never notice it, the cars about done by that point anyway and I got my use out of it and saving money.


Now with my Bus, I've learned a TON from you guys here, and has armed me with a wealth of knowledge to know if a mechanic is screwing me on the BUS. Like with my king pin job wanting to charge me $4500 to do it. The tool was $2000 for the press, Made my own for $100 in scrap metal, got the job done. I've put maybe $300 into the job so far, and plan to assemble it back together tomorrow given the weather is good. It's slow but it's not worth the prices mechanics charge for that job. I also know I have a VPM wiring or module issue which I wouldn't have been able to identify without help from here. I plan to bring it to the dealership for the VPM wiring issue as I'm not as good with wiring in autos. I would go to a good mechanic if I knew one local to me and understood these buses well, but I don't know any, and everyone I call has no idea how to work on them.

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by nikitis

This is More often than not my experience with mechanics. Sorry to Mechanics, you may not be this way, but there are a lot of bad ones that ruin the image of the profession. You mechanics on here are great, and I would bring my bus to you to have you work on it for sure. You're involved in the community and are a credit to your profession. I've learned to grow a thick skin and start learning a little about my systems so I cannot be taken for a ride as easily. It's served me well and I've saved Literally $1000's of dollars over my lifetime.


I have a Silverado I bought used, and they quoted me $5000 to tidy everything up on initial inspection. The only thing I had them repair was the fuel pump as it did have a leak and I knew about it, and the truck has run for 7 years since with no issues. All the other mess they stated, the Y and Z's were unnecessary.

I had a Toyota Camry I had for 15 years, and the toyota dealership tried to get me to fix all of these problems which weren't problems when I bought it used, but if I can go 15 years without having to fix said issues and never notice it, the cars about done by that point anyway and I got my use out of it and saving money.


Now with my Bus, I've learned a TON from you guys here, and has armed me with a wealth of knowledge to know if a mechanic is screwing me on the BUS. Like with my king pin job wanting to charge me $4500 to do it. The tool was $2000 for the press, Made my own for $100 in scrap metal, got the job done. I've put maybe $300 into the job so far, and plan to assemble it back together tomorrow given the weather is good. It's slow but it's not worth the prices mechanics charge for that job. I also know I have a VPM wiring or module issue which I wouldn't have been able to identify without help from here. I plan to bring it to the dealership for the VPM wiring issue as I'm not as good with wiring in autos. I would go to a good mechanic if I knew one local to me and understood these buses well, but I don't know any, and everyone I call has no idea how to work on them.

IMO it's not a mechanic issue. It's a "professional" anything issue.
When I first purchased my home, we knew it needed some work so I hired some "professional" contractors. $8,000 later and I'm stuck reframing doors, rehanging cabinets, buying a whole new countertop because they cut it too short, essentially redoing every single job they were paid to do.

When I hired a "professional" painter. He unhinged every door, propped them up in the living room, and SPRAYED THEM. Without a single drop cloth, I had over spray on the brand new floor, windows, sink, fridge, stove, you name it. Everything in the living room and kitchen had over spray on it. He also overtightened every single screw when reinstalling the doors, stripping out the wood on every single hinge. I went through a lot of toothpicks and wood glue taking care of that.

When I hired a "professional" deck builder. Not a single board was sanded, not a single edge was routed, cracked boards were installed, etc.

When I hired a "professional" Ford mechanic to replace a cv axle on my Taurus (was still under warranty) they told me my brake calipers on the front were shot and they needed to be replaced or it would be unsafe to drive and that it would not be covered under the warranty, which confused me since I was there for other warranty work. I told them I wanted to get another opinion as I had been driving on them just fine, clean fluid, no leaks, etc. It is now eleven years and 150,000 miles later and no brake caliper issues.

When I hired a "professional" International mechanic to inspect my bus and replace some power steering lines on my bus, they routed the lines incorrectly, rendering my cooling fan inoperable. They also tried to have me pay to fix the AC and heating systems in the bus because they were not operating, I told them that was strange as I had the ac running on the drive to their shop. I found out not even 5 minutes after looking into the problem myself that the "no noise" switch was on.

The issue as I see it, is that we have too many people who have no idea how anything in our current world works. They just know that if you put gas in a car it goes vroom. Because of this anyone with a toolbox that watches a youtube video can pass off as a "professional." When in reality they are just an amateur running around tricking people.

Being a "professional" doesn't mean you can do something, it means you can do it well enough to deserve being paid.

Rant over.