Rear axle leak, wear, and rust - best next steps?

dbsoundman · 05-04-2022, 09:33 AM

Hi all, I just got back from an approximately 2700 mile round trip from OH to Miami and Orlando FL. While en route I discovered that yet again (for like the 3rd time since I bought this bus in June 2021) I had a rear axle seal leak. I honestly can't remember which side leaked when before, but here's the general breakdown (har har) of events:

Fall 2021: discovered one side of my rear axle leaking in my driveway. Took to local shop who installed repair seals from what I recall.
January 2022: noticed that driver's side rear axle was leaking again in my driveway. Took back to local shop who did original repair and they fixed it for free.
April 2022: Noticed my passenger side was leaking this time, but the leak seemed to be minor. Ended up putting about 2 quarts of oil into the differential in the course of driving down to Miami (about a 1300 mile trip). Ended up meeting up with a fellow skoolie member ewo1, who was able to hook me up with a diesel mechanic that used his shop space. While I was away on a cruise that mechanic put on a different type of repair seal that has some sort of bearings in it. He noted that the old shop did a really crappy job of installing the repair seals; they were not flat at all, hence the leaking. This was seen on both sides, drivers and passengers. The old shop also used a healthy dose of RTV sealant. Overall, however, ewo1's mechanic saw that there was wear and rust on the axle which may be the cause of long term leaks.
May 2021: returning from Miami I noticed a driver's side leak again in Orlando, which seems to have started only after I parked, having driven straight from Miami to Orlando. Once I left Orlando, a persistent leak on the driver's side all the way home.

I have some pics from ewo1 which I'll add here later but I wanted to get this started to look for solutions. In general it seems like I'll either have to get this axle machined if I can find a place to do that kind of work, or I'll have to replace it. I contacted the bus dealer for Thomas to see what they quote, and I also found a used axle assembly from an RV that had an interior fire on eBay. That axle has a different ratio (4.77, mine is 5.125) and looks like it's equipped for air ride (mine is shocks), but it is equipped with air brakes.

So...where do I go from here? Is it labor intensive to replace a rear axle? I don't plan to DIY it, but knowing the labor time involved would help me choose my next course of action.

FYI my rear axle is a Daimler R19-2N, 5.125 ratio.

magnakansas · 05-04-2022, 01:21 PM

utah -- $1500 frieght liner air ride, air brake, 4.10 ratio

several with 5.13 and 5.71

the air ride or leaf spring should not matter.... you reuse that stuff on the new rear end. I would put in new axle seals before it goes into the bus...

all of the ones I have looked at so far have air brakes... dunno if they are drum or disc.

I am using the axle type daimler and number you gave as the search words.

LKQ has one listed, 19,000 lb rated, it is a clip... has air suspension frame rails, and axle assembly as one unit 5.13 ratio disc brake , Ebrake on differential $2200 looks pretty clean. Toledo ohio

easton maryland, 5.13 ratio, drums, abs air brake $1500 also drums, air brake 4.77 ratio $1500 hydraulic disc, 5.13 $1500

so it seems likely if disc, then they are hydraulic... but you would need to verify.

most of what I see from LKQ are 5,13 or 5.71 rear ratios they talk about two bolt or 15+1 flange -- I do not know what that means... I suspect it will not matter unless it has to do with the pinion flange...

LKQ goodys toledo ohio seems to have about 20 of these. drums, air brake, some with aluminum hubs. all seem to be 5.13 or 5.71

dti trucks denver co 4.11 $1250

you know, I dont see why you would have to limit your self to the same brand of rear axle.... rating and housing mounts and driveshaft flange blah blah blah if all that stuff is the right size, I think you should be able to use any of the brands of rear axle..... just going to have to keep all the information so you can get the correct parts later if you need them.

william

dbsoundman · 05-04-2022, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnakansas

utah -- $1500 frieght liner air ride, air brake, 4.10 ratio

several with 5.13 and 5.71

the air ride or leaf spring should not matter.... you reuse that stuff on the new rear end. I would put in new axle seals before it goes into the bus...

all of the ones I have looked at so far have air brakes... dunno if they are drum or disc.

I am using the axle type daimler and number you gave as the search words.

LKQ has one listed, 19,000 lb rated, it is a clip... has air suspension frame rails, and axle assembly as one unit 5.13 ratio disc brake , Ebrake on differential $2200 looks pretty clean. Toledo ohio

easton maryland, 5.13 ratio, drums, abs air brake $1500 also drums, air brake 4.77 ratio $1500 hydraulic disc, 5.13 $1500

so it seems likely if disc, then they are hydraulic... but you would need to verify.

most of what I see from LKQ are 5,13 or 5.71 rear ratios they talk about two bolt or 15+1 flange -- I do not know what that means... I suspect it will not matter unless it has to do with the pinion flange...

LKQ goodys toledo ohio seems to have about 20 of these. drums, air brake, some with aluminum hubs. all seem to be 5.13 or 5.71

dti trucks denver co 4.11 $1250

you know, I dont see why you would have to limit your self to the same brand of rear axle.... rating and housing mounts and driveshaft flange blah blah blah if all that stuff is the right size, I think you should be able to use any of the brands of rear axle..... just going to have to keep all the information so you can get the correct parts later if you need them.

william

Wow, you did a lot more of a dive than I did so far, thanks! LKQ was going to be my next call, I'm currently waiting to hear back from Mike and B Bus Sales in Newcomerstown OH to see what they have.

My big issue will be finding a trustworthy mechanic that will do the swap. So far I have only found a sh*tty mechanic shop and big name truck shops that back-burner my work as much as they possibly can while charging the highest of high labor rates to do it.

magnakansas · 05-04-2022, 01:34 PM

well you are in toledo still, then you have a good source of axles, just not a good source of different ratios...

If you are hand with tools.... take the outer two wheels off your bus and put them on the replacement axle...... jack up and block bus. remove the axle and roll out... roll new one in place.... need bottle jacks, engine hoist... one trusted person to help out would be nice... it is a two man weekend job..... maybe a week if you go into the all the brakes, and bearings..... should be a short warranty on the replacement axle housing..... take off drums and inspect before you get invested in the replacement housing....

I have found that guys that run dirt track racing and are the running in the top five all the time have good mechanics working on the car... might be a way to find a good independant mechanic... also places that work on equipment used in for farming..... out of the cities....

william

dbsoundman · 05-05-2022, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnakansas

well you are in toledo still, then you have a good source of axles, just not a good source of different ratios...

If you are hand with tools.... take the outer two wheels off your bus and put them on the replacement axle...... jack up and block bus. remove the axle and roll out... roll new one in place.... need bottle jacks, engine hoist... one trusted person to help out would be nice... it is a two man weekend job..... maybe a week if you go into the all the brakes, and bearings..... should be a short warranty on the replacement axle housing..... take off drums and inspect before you get invested in the replacement housing....

I have found that guys that run dirt track racing and are the running in the top five all the time have good mechanics working on the car... might be a way to find a good independant mechanic... also places that work on equipment used in for farming..... out of the cities....

william

What would I need with an engine hoist? Either way it seems like this would be a pain without a lift as the axle wont' clear the fender with the wheels on to roll it in or out unless you jacked the body up super high.

This swap seems very doable but man, I am not happy with the timing. I just spent a couple grand on our last trip, mostly in fuel (which I expected), but now I'm looking at rapidly spending another $2-3k to replace this axle. Ouch for sure. I keep having to remind myself of the good memories associated with our last trip and driving this bus so I don't just start shopping for RVs.

ewo1 · 05-05-2022, 03:03 PM

dbsoundman,

I hope you don't mind but i'm posting some of the pics so that maybe others here with some past life experience can offer a doable suggestion. right now everyone is trying to help but they really need to see what the issue is.

The first picture, you can see that the seal was not fully installed. When a straight edge was placed on top, one side is flat and the other is raised. While the easy fix was to push it back down it was decided to replace it with a new one just to ensure the seal itself was not damaged or would no longer seal properly.

dbsoundman · 05-05-2022, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewo1

dbsoundman,

I hope you don't mind but i'm posting some of the pics so that maybe others here with some past life experience can offer a doable suggestion. right now everyone is trying to help but they really need to see what the issue is.

The first picture, you can see that the seal was not fully installed. When a straight edge was placed on top, one side is flat and the other is raised. While the easy fix was to push it back down it was decided to replace it with a new one just to ensure the seal itself was not damaged or would no longer seal properly.

Thanks, please do share those pictures! You have an even better understanding of what went down than I do.

In particular, what was the name and style of that new seal the mechanic installed? I remember it had some sort of rotating bearing in it. I'm almost wondering if maybe that got installed crooked but then again I think the wear on the driver's side of the axle is the more likely culprit. It seems the longer this thing sits, the worse it gets. On the trip back it only leaked when the axle got hot, but just today I noticed a big pool of oil on the ground and the bus hasn't moved more than 100 feet in the last two days.

ewo1 · 05-05-2022, 03:09 PM

The next pics, take a good close look at the spindle. The crown or back plate is too rounded and shows corrosion right by the edge. When the backing plare for the seal was replaced, because of the rounded edge it could not provide a flat surface in order to properly seal the steel ring that goes here.

The base of the spindle itself is worn and you can see a grove in it which makes it quite difficult to provide a proper seal, Pics 2 & 3.

The first pic shows the backing plate that is press fit on the axle housing itself.
The two following pics show the backing plate removed.

A suggestion was made t either maybe use some JB WELD - Steel but then it is questionable if the heat from the axle would affect the JB Weld.

So as you can see, our friend here could use some expertise with this issue.

Me, only because I have the help now to do it, I would take a chance the JB WELD but if resources are not readily available to play cat and mouse with this, a complete swap of the axle coupled with a new gear ratio that would hit the MPG spot.

ewo1 · 05-05-2022, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbsoundman

Thanks, please do share those pictures! You have an even better understanding of what went down than I do.

In particular, what was the name and style of that new seal the mechanic installed? I remember it had some sort of rotating bearing in it.

The seals were replaced were 392-9131 | STEMCO | DRIVE AXLE GRIT GUARD WHEEL SEAL
https://www.wheelco.com/stemco_wheel...tem_4341_53322

This was the seal that was later installed.

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-370.../dp/B0012UG0X8

Booyah45828 · 05-05-2022, 03:43 PM

Well, for starters, that can be fixed without replacing the axle. They can machine and weld on a new stub shaft. You don't need to replace the axle unless you want a different ratio to go along with it.

Axle surgeons can install a new stub assembly on that and you'll be back in business. Go with the genuine guys found at (877)349-2953. There are guys around detroit who do it as well, but they're not afiliated with the corporate company, and there work is rumored to be subpar.

Second off, if you're using a standard seal, switch over to a scotseal. Scotseals are a 2 piece design that has the rotating seal surface within itself, making the surface finish on the stub shaft pretty irrelevant. So long as that surface is not horrndously grooved or rusty, it will seal up and operate fine. Even then, a thin wipe of silicone between the seal and shaft/hub seals it up.

Maybe the scotseal is what they were referring to with the bearing in it comment.

With that said, scotseals are very picky about being installed square and clean. If it gets cocked during install, it's junk, take my word for it. They have special tools/drivers to install one, and believe me when I say that you should use them. Also, they're picky about bearing tightness. They won't take loose bearings at all, so make sure you follow the procedure to a T and check the end play afterwards. Another thing, make sure the axle vent isn't plugged, as no seal will hold up against a bunch of pressure pushed on it.

The only time I've had a scotseal correctly installed and then fail was because of a cracked stub shaft, or a plugged axle vent. Other then that, they're stupid reliable compared to a standard wheel seal.

Booyah45828 · 05-05-2022, 03:52 PM

Ewo1,

If those are the pictures of his seal, that first one shows it's not installed square, which if it's a scotseal(looks blue like one) would have been the cause of failure.

Your 2nd picture looks like a speedi sleeve that was installed or half a scotseal that didn't come off with the seal/hub. Most of the time the 2 pieces stick together, but I guess if you beat it apart they might seperate.

The 3rd and 4th look crusty, but nothing too serious or alarming.

Check the vent for obstructions. Then clean the stub shaft with a wire brush, clean it with brake cleaner and then wipe some gear oil gasket maker on it from permatex. Clean the recess in the hub with the wire brush, clean it with brake cleaner, wipe that with gear oil rtv, install the scotseal in the hub SQUARELY, and then reinstall the hub on the axle. Tighten the bearings correctly and let it sit for a day, fill the hub with lube, reinstall everything that was removed, adjust your brakes back up, and you're good to go.

HamSkoolie · 05-05-2022, 04:19 PM

I was going to suggest investigating the possibility of a speedi-sleeve. I've used them at least a dozen times when I worked in the county fleet shop and never had one fail to fix the problem..... though we encountered some that the speedi-sleeve simply was not going to fix.

Can't tell for sure from the pics but it does look like there may be a speedi-sleeve. I'm not familiar with the scotseal so it could be that.

Definitely options to explore before replacing the entire axle. On the other hand, if you find a good axle with a better ratio than what you have.......

dbsoundman · 05-05-2022, 04:39 PM

Great information! Thanks especially to Booyah, I will talk to the Axle Surgeons and see what they say.

That being said, should I entertain having the shaft welded at this point, or should I try another scotseal? I'm not 100% sure what's been tried so far other than that original "blue" seal which ewo1 posted (the crooked one) and the new seal that ewo1 shared with an amazon.com link. I'm wondering if the original blue seal was actually installed crooked, or if it just moved over time due to the wear on the spindle? Just trying not to throw another $500-1000 down the hole for another failed repair.

dbsoundman · 05-05-2022, 04:40 PM

Forgot to add, and for some reason I can't edit on this browser...

I also wondered about clogged vents! What's the best way to check the vents? It kind of looks like they're threaded in, but there's so much oil and goop down there it's hard to see much of anything right now. The clogged vent came to my mind because of how the seal failed only after 3.5 hours of driving, then parking on a warm day.

ewo1 · 05-05-2022, 05:01 PM

This is the seal that was leaking, passenger side, and replaced.
The driver side was leaking not from the seal itself (in the hub) but by the outer ring that mounts onto the axle housing.
Leaking between the ring and the axle housing.

And yes, I do believe it was a scotseal.
https://www.amazon.com/SKF-Scotseal-47697/dp/B00D0I10XA

MORE PICS/VIEWS ADDED

Booyah45828 · 05-06-2022, 08:44 AM

Looks like one to me. I'd get another and install it correctly this time. If you think that scoring in your picture is a problem, file it down and apply a wipe of gear oil rtv on it. Like I said, the dynamic sealing part(part that moves) of the scotseal is internal, it doesn't care what the surface looks like. The static seal part does, but that has a wide margin of acceptable surfaces.

A picture can only say so much, and can vary compared to what I'd see in person, but that scored groove isn't something I'd spend too much time on. So long as it's a groove and not a crack. I'd be more concerned about the dirt/rust behind that groove, and I'd be sure to get it as clean as I could with a wire brush. The seal on a scotseal will hold against a lot of surface imperfections, especially if it's coupled with a wipe of rtv.

If it's cracked, forget about it and go no further, as it needs axle surgeons to replace the shaft. No seal will work if the shaft is cracked, as the flexing is what's causing the issue.

And as mentioned/pondered over, be sure to check the vent. If you can remove it, then do so. Blow brake cleaner followed by air through it. It's not a free flowing device, but it shouldn't have any real restriction to it either. A lot of times I'll see these cause problems because they're full of rust/dirt.

Booyah45828 · 05-06-2022, 08:45 AM

Also, that slotted ring near the seal on the hub is your tone ring for your abs. Be sure that has all the grease, grime, and crud removed from it, or you might run into abs problems.

dbsoundman · 05-06-2022, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Looks like one to me. I'd get another and install it correctly this time. If you think that scoring in your picture is a problem, file it down and apply a wipe of gear oil rtv on it. Like I said, the dynamic sealing part(part that moves) of the scotseal is internal, it doesn't care what the surface looks like. The static seal part does, but that has a wide margin of acceptable surfaces.

A picture can only say so much, and can vary compared to what I'd see in person, but that scored groove isn't something I'd spend too much time on. So long as it's a groove and not a crack. I'd be more concerned about the dirt/rust behind that groove, and I'd be sure to get it as clean as I could with a wire brush. The seal on a scotseal will hold against a lot of surface imperfections, especially if it's coupled with a wipe of rtv.

If it's cracked, forget about it and go no further, as it needs axle surgeons to replace the shaft. No seal will work if the shaft is cracked, as the flexing is what's causing the issue.

And as mentioned/pondered over, be sure to check the vent. If you can remove it, then do so. Blow brake cleaner followed by air through it. It's not a free flowing device, but it shouldn't have any real restriction to it either. A lot of times I'll see these cause problems because they're full of rust/dirt.

I called axle surgeons, they have a location in Delta OH. I’m taking the bus to them to check it out. I feel like at this point I’d rather have the “certified experts” check it out and perform the correct repairs. It could just be a blown seal and clogged vents, but at least this way I should get a highly educated answer. Hopefully.

I am going to try to check out the vents but the cold rainy weather today and tomorrow isn’t helping things…

Booyah45828 · 05-06-2022, 09:08 AM

They're good guys and know what they're doing. They'll take care of you.

dbsoundman · 05-12-2022, 03:20 PM

Axle Surgeons took a look at the passenger side today and told me that there's only about 1/4" of good surface for the seal to contact, the rest of the spindle is rusty, so the National seal that was put on as a replacement didn't have enough surface area to make a good seal.

He said we can try a Stemco seal (which I think may have been attempted before, but hopefully this time will be installed better), the alternative is cutting the spindle and replacing it to the tune of $2600.

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