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Old 09-19-2020, 08:03 PM   #1
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Tire help

I have a front engine flatnose bus, 2002 amtran with a DT466e.

My tires are worn out and probably ancient, although I couldn't find the date code on them, but I am having a bad wear problem where the outside shoulder is wearing out very noticeably on the front tires.

I have heard that front engine busses are murder on steer tires, and one shop said I had river wear on those tires, but that doesn't line up with what I am seeing. that being said, I have no idea what I am talking about. The same shop said my kingpins were worn, but honestly I didn't trust them at all, and my bus has about 10k miles since the kingpins were inspected and said to be fine.

but.. tire wear, kingpins, I guess that makes sense?

I had the alignment done but it didn't seem to slow down the outer edge wear much.

I have to get one more 2000 mile trip outta this bus before parking it for a while and I would love to not do the kingpins if I don't absolutely have to, so I am thinking about buying just a couple of double coins for the front and seeing what happens.

So questions: anyone experience this kind of tire wear before and if so what may fix it? Second, could this be normalish wear and I am making myself crazy? third, if my kingpins are worn enough to wear tires funny am I stupid to drive 2K miles on them? Fourth: what does a kingpin job typically cost? And fifth, can I check the kingpins myself if I figure out how to get the bus off the ground?

Okay, sixth question! Any reason not to have a tire shop just rotate the tire on the rim so I have a virgin outside just for this last trip?

pics: https://imgur.com/a/oKtWlTr
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:16 PM   #2
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You may have steering gear box wear or play in the steering linkage causing your outer tire wear. More than 10% (2 inches on a 20-inch steering wheel) is deemed unsafe. Could also be excessive wheel bearing play. I have seen this on an 18-wheeler with a bent frame.

Kingpins - that's a tough one. I have also seen kingpins worn to the point the steering would seize at hard-lock to either side. They are technically an out-of-service violation for CMVs still in commercial service, and being an RV doesn't make them any less dangerous.

The carrier in question kept me and my co-pilot running on BS stories that changed every time we got our next load, and 2 weeks and 10,000 miles, I threatened a voluntary Level 1 at the next inspection station, and they finally agreed to have the truck repaired or let us swap trucks if the down time was excessive. That being said, I wouldn't let it go that long again. If you're planning to drive it with suspect kingpins, figure out your two best tires that are not retreads and rotate them to the steers.

It could also be a balance issue, as these tires are typically unbalanced. They sell tire balance rings for these type of rims and tires that could possibly help. They mount between the rims on duals and between the riim / drum on steers.

Personally, I would rather have virgin tires to the inside, as they are less likely to blow and it's honestly better from a road service call standpoint, because less time removing two wheels to replace one tire can save you money - these guys get paid by the hour after a certain point.

As to selecting tires, I would recommend getting an empty weight on your rig with a truck scale that gives you front, rear, and gross weights. If you have not yet built the interior, add about 4,000 lbs to the rear, 2,000 lbs to the front, then divide the rear total by 4, the front total by 2. This will give you the weight that each rear and front tire has to be rated for (may not be the same front to rear).

If using retreads, do NOT put them on the steer axle. It is dangerous and illegal. I would go with virgin rubber all around, but it's actually required on the steer tires for safety. (See my thread on Pre-trip safety inspection procedures)

I have heard in my time driving over-the-road that using semi trailer tires on the drives can help fuel economy, but suck in terms of traction. Just my $0.02. Hope that helps.
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:20 PM   #3
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very interesting, I definitely have steering play somewhere but I don't really know where it is... I had my girlfriend jiggle the wheel a bit but it seemed pretty tight in the linkage down to the tie rods to my untrained eye, but I guess wheel bearings or kingpins could do that too. I don't hear any rumbling or anything else but the steering is definitely sloppy.

Something to look into. Maybe a good idea to have a truck shop examine and let me know what they think before I go.

Thanks for that info.
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:39 PM   #4
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Kinda sounds like steering gear box, then. You might want to re-read that, BTW, I've added some info in the past few minutes.

Also, you might want to check out this pre-trip inspection checklost I've compiled. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but there are some things that can't be cured if something breaks.

https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f9/re...ist-33026.html

Also, this thread on recommended safety items and suggestions.

https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f9/bus-safety-32840.html
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:51 PM   #5
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thank you! I have retreads on the back four tires so I am stuck with these or new steer tires. As I just crawled under there to get the date code for these tires (2015 I think) I realized that the likely most economical option is likely just to reverse the two steers on the rim so I don't wear the edge off of them and then deal with it in the spring.

I'll have the tire shop inspect the kingpins for me and get an idea of how bad they are, or if they're bad at all, and get some sort of recommendation from them but the bus hasn't gotten worse since I've had it so I feel like if the kingpins are bad they're not THAT bad, or the people that told me they were okay in the beginning were the ones that were lying!

Listening to your story makes me feel like 2K more miles isn't an eternity, and I'll inspect things every time I fuel up. My guess is that if became emergent and I HAD to fix something it would be a lot cheaper to do that somewhere outside of NYC anyway, so I'll flip the tires and see what they say I think!
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:13 PM   #6
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Good call, I guess that's the best you can do for now. But honestly, as a former CDL driver, the steering and suspension on any retired bus is going to be suspect to me until deemed safe by a professional. And believe me, not everyone knows everything to check for, potentially missing a dangerous problem. Kingpins, wheel bearings / oil level, pitman arm, tie rod ends, steering gear box, and center / drag links (if equipped) should all be checked.

Keep in mind, however, while my 10,000 mile story was by no means an eternity, that was also with two drivers collectively averaging 1,000-1,200 miles per day. So, that was 8-15 days for us, I don't remember exactly. It took longer because we were sitting for the holidays with no freight.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:22 PM   #7
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I hear you, I definitely think it needs something! All of the tie rods and drag links and such look good to me, nothing moves funny under tension with the wheels on the ground or has play, but I think the wheel bearings and or kingpins could definitely be suspect. I think getting it off the ground at the tire shop will illuminate issues more than I can do myself so I'll try to take it to a place that's more than just tires to do the flip and hopefully I'll gain some insight.
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Old 09-20-2020, 05:57 AM   #8
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Might pay dividends in trouble avoided to go down that checklist, I recommend the entire thing if you've never done it, but at least for the areas in question in this thread.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:30 PM   #9
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I don't see erosion wear in your pictures. It looks like edge wear caused most likely by incorrect toe. Occasionally camber could cause that too, but for it to be caused by camber, there would be major movement in the suspension that would be pretty obvious to a driver.

Both alignment angles could be out because of worn king pins. The toe could be out because of worn tie rod ends. Gear box and drag link issues usually won't cause tire wear issues. But regardless of what's worn, the best bet is to raise and support the axle and then inspect for looseness in the front suspension components. You would then replace any failed components and perform an alignment.

Occasionally, we would have school buses that would have excessive edge wear, like what you have, due to the amount of turning they performed in route use. The best course of action in that scenario was to have all position tires on both axles, and then frequently rotate the tire positions to keep the wear even.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:45 PM   #10
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every bus I have bought has been SEVERELY out of alignment when I bought it. my thoiught is that schools dont align them ever...



on average I take the ones I drive onten to the alignment shop every year.. they also will tell me if anything is loosey goosey or looks like it needs replaced.. Ive had to do king pins on one bus. steering box on one was bad (couldnt adjust the lash ciorrectly).. another has a bad input shaft bearing on the steering box so its coming off this week,,



getting the front end in order will give you a nice pleasant surprise too when you go to drive your bus esp on less than perfect roads
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:11 PM   #11
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Thanks, guys. I got it aligned and had a tie rod changed cause it was seized and they said the alignment was fine at that point but the kingpins were worn. Honestly, I donít know if I trust that the tie rod needed to be replaced or that the kingpins are bad cause it was just a shady kinda shop experience.

I do know that I have steering play that seems excessive but itís not 2Ē at the wheel, just a lot more than a typical car, and I wonder if that is causing the outside edge wear because Iím loading the outside edges of the tires often as I wander down the highway.

I guess the plan to flip the tires will get me where I gotta go and then I can worry about it all in the spring assuming they donít find any massive problems when flipping the tires, but I gotta budget for and figure out how to get the front end right so I donít end up burning through pricey rubber on the regular.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:12 PM   #12
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Do you remember what the kingpin job cost?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
every bus I have bought has been SEVERELY out of alignment when I bought it. my thoiught is that schools dont align them ever...



on average I take the ones I drive onten to the alignment shop every year.. they also will tell me if anything is loosey goosey or looks like it needs replaced.. Ive had to do king pins on one bus. steering box on one was bad (couldnt adjust the lash ciorrectly).. another has a bad input shaft bearing on the steering box so its coming off this week,,



getting the front end in order will give you a nice pleasant surprise too when you go to drive your bus esp on less than perfect roads
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:21 PM   #13
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Thanks, guys. I got it aligned and had a tie rod changed cause it was seized and they said the alignment was fine at that point but the kingpins were worn. Honestly, I donít know if I trust that the tie rod needed to be replaced or that the kingpins are bad cause it was just a shady kinda shop experience.

I do know that I have steering play that seems excessive but itís not 2Ē at the wheel, just a lot more than a typical car, and I wonder if that is causing the outside edge wear because Iím loading the outside edges of the tires often as I wander down the highway.

I guess the plan to flip the tires will get me where I gotta go and then I can worry about it all in the spring assuming they donít find any massive problems when flipping the tires, but I gotta budget for and figure out how to get the front end right so I donít end up burning through pricey rubber on the regular.
That's 2" on a 20" steering wheel, or 10%. You should measure your steering wheel's diameter, if it's 18", then more than 1.8" would be excessive. More than 2.2" would be excessive on a 22" steering wheel. You have to know what your steering wheel diameter is.
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:29 AM   #14
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If it's wandering down the highway, there is a good chance one or both of your kingpin bearings are bad. That will cause a binding action that will prevent the caster on the front axle from centering the steering wheel, which causes you to wander back and then forth ever so slightly between the center and edge lines.

As far as looseness in the wheel is concerned, any vehicle that has a recirculating ball gear box is going to feel looser then a car with a rack and pinion steering. It's because there are so many wear points in a gear box system, where as a rack and pinion has many fewer.

Cheesewagon's spec of 10% on wheel movement is right.

But honestly, my bus had a bound kingpin bearing on the left, and a loose pin on the right, and would wander down the road and not return to straight after turning. I replaced both kingpin sets, rebuilt the gear box with new seals, then performed an alignment and my bus goes down the road almost perfect.

It doesn't steer like a car by any means, or have the tightness in the steering that a car has, but it steers way better and is comfortable to drive now.
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:47 AM   #15
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Is there a good way to test for kingpin problems at home ? I’ll be at the mercy of a shop to actually change or repair them but what can a small guy do at home to see if I’m in the right ballpark. My steering gear on the dev bus was def bad the rebuild helped immensely, my drag link and tie rods seem nice and tight , I still feel at times like I have to chase it. Esp on uneven lanes or where the roads change their tilt. Ie are flat then bank.. what you describe of kingpin bearings sounds close. But I want to do some kind of check before I just call a shop and send it in ..
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Old 09-22-2020, 10:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Is there a good way to test for kingpin problems at home ? I’ll be at the mercy of a shop to actually change or repair them but what can a small guy do at home to see if I’m in the right ballpark. My steering gear on the dev bus was def bad the rebuild helped immensely, my drag link and tie rods seem nice and tight , I still feel at times like I have to chase it. Esp on uneven lanes or where the roads change their tilt. Ie are flat then bank.. what you describe of kingpin bearings sounds close. But I want to do some kind of check before I just call a shop and send it in ..
I'm not going to claim this as gospel, but it seems to me with a jack and jackstands rated for the weight, you can prop the steer axle beam on jack-stands, and rock the wheel/tire assembly in-and-out gripping it top and bottom as though you were checking for excessive play in wheel bearings or ball joints. If the kingpins or bearings are worn, seems to me it should rock in and out top-to-bottom in the same manner as a ball joint would. Effectively, the kingpins combine the function of a ball-joint when you get right down to it.
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Old 09-22-2020, 11:10 AM   #17
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My experience with King pins comes from 30 years ago and the '70's F series trucks, but it can't be much different, just bigger.

To check for binding in the bearings you need to get the wheel off the ground and disconnect the tie rod. The tire should then turn full left to full right with some resistance, but no binding. If it is difficult to turn, the bearings are ceased, or it flops from side to side, the bearings are worn out.

To check the overall condition of the King pin, get the tire off the ground enough to place a large, long bar under the tire and lift up and down. While having an assistant do this, watch the spindle area for excessive play in the steering knuckle to axle. If you can see any movement, the pins need to be replaced. What movement you can create with this method will be magnified a thousand times over with the weight of the bus sitting on the road.
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Old 09-22-2020, 11:46 AM   #18
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agree with cheesy wagons

I think this check out stuff works best with two people. Go watch a couple of hours of you tube university videos about all this stuff before you do anything, unless you have experience. Might be a good idea to watch videos even if you thing you have the experience. Might learn something new. The reason why I say to watch so many.... helps to weed out some of the weird bullshit wrong information. Use a consensus when learning.

The front jacked up.... perhaps only one wheel at a time. the other wheel on the ground will help hold that wheel in place....

so lets start with right wheel on the ground and left wheel up.... if you keep the wheel that is up... only a couple of inches off the ground that will help.

find a way to "lock" steering wheel in place if you can... two by four one by one something kind of long ish and a couple of bungee cords or spring clamps... attach bar. wood, broom handle to steering wheel and tie down the other end to help keep the steering wheel from moving. lock it as firmly as you can with the wheels in the straight ahead position.

so the first check will be grabbing the wheel off the ground at 9 and 3 o'clock. starting with as little movement as you can, wiggle the tire/wheel back and forth as little as you can..... do you feel any play? now work your way to bigger and bigger movements..... if you are getting movement ... that is where your shimmy and shakes can come from... steering box, tie rod ends, steering arm joint, drag link, tie rod ends... IF you have one... panhard bar or locating link... example... on F550 chassis it has a solid axle with coil springs and there is a bar connected to the frame at one end, and the axle at the other end. this keeps the front axle from moving left/right in the chassis. this can be loose too. so.... look for where the movement is coming from... and movement can be little itty bitty like three thousandths of an inch 0.003 that is the thickness of a piece of paper. one joint moving that little is not going to cause a problem, but every joint in the system moving that much COULD cause a problem......on dodge and ford trucks model T's and model A's it and cars like them. It is often called "death wobble"

I have found, that tire wear, shimmies and shakes are very very rarely just one worn part. Usually the whole system wears and that is the result of all the system worn. replace a few of the parts and that is often enough to make the shimmie and shakes go away, even though part of the problem is still there.

Loose steering box. Most wear on a steering box happens when the wheel is straight ahead. When you adjust the steering box so that it is "tight" when it is straight ahead, now it is too tight when it is off center. This condition is really rough on the internal gears of the steering box. adjust the steering box so that it is "tight" - no steering wheel slop- when the steering wheel is 90 to 180 degrees off of center. You will probably still be Loosy goosey straight ahead, but wont be chewing up those gears when turning.

tire rods, drag links, pitman arms, steering arms... all fall under the same kind of "how to look for wear" again go to you tube. It has all been done before.

Now that you have wiggled at 3 and 9.... do it again at 12 and 6 --the 12 and 6 will be more kingpin/ball joint than steering gear/steering box.

6 thousandths of an inch of movement at the kingpin.. is likely to be multiplied at the place where the tread meets the road by four times or more. If you look at the specifications of king pin fit... many cases a new pin can be fit with one to two thousandths when new.

Steering dampers..... consider these too.


I just did a look for kingpin specifications... there are many heavy truck pages/videos about this subject.

read/watch. learn. do it some more. then go check it out.... I am in Topeka and have big bottle jacks, and other equipment for checking out this kind of stuff. Also truck shops can do this too.

I feel owner's most always do a more thorough job when checking out.

I am a perfectionist and usually am more critical of fit and finish of steering and suspension than most shops. Probably to the point of doing replacement of "moderate wear of parts" instead of " badly worn parts" . But that also means two other things.... I some times spend money before it is really needed, and my steering and suspension is usually top notch.

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Old 09-22-2020, 11:55 AM   #19
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Like others have mentioned, you can check for sloppiness in the bushings of the pin by looking for movement with no weight on the tires. So jack it off the ground, secure it with stands, and then pry around on it to see if you can get movement. Most king pins will have a brass pushing pressed into the knuckle that are greased and ride on the hardened pin. Those bushings are usually what wear out. You don't need to remove the tie rod to inspect the bushings.

To replace the bushings, you chisel the old out, then you press/hammer in new ones, and then ream them new ones to size. Or meritor makes a no-ream kit that is a little more expensive, but doesn't require a reamer to size the bushings to the pin.

To check for bearing issues, you should remove the tie rod end. I will do it in a similar way as the bushings then, but I'll use a bottle jack to apply a little pressure to the bottom of the spindle. With the load applied, you rotate the spindle back and forth and look for smooth movement. If it ratchets at all, or binds in a spot, then you know the bearing is bad. Without that pressure applied though, bearing issues might not be as obvious.

If you're suspecting king pin issues, and they're not obviously worn out, I've found it best to remove the tire, hub/bearing, and braking assembly when checking. That removes most of the weight from the spindle and allows you to manipulate the spindle easily.

Most quality kingpin sets will come with everything required, like bearings, shims, seals, tapered keys, and of course, new pins and bushings.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:02 PM   #20
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Oh, and If you're buying kingpins, I'd recommend going through a local parts store.

I bought mine through amazon when I did it, and both the original and warranty replacement sets arrived like they were tossed out of the plane at 40k feet when it was above my house. Luckily enough, I had enough undamaged pieces from both sets to make one good one.
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