Toasted Tranny ?

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

2000 is the series.. if you take the serial number from any given allison and go to "my allison" online it will tell you the exact model number.. within the 2000 series are the various models.. ultimately looking it up online will tell you what its complete model is (something good to do before buying it)



its like saying I have a Jeep Gladiator.. thats just the series...

I might have a gladiator rubicon

I might have a gladiator sport
each one has different characteristics..



-Christopher

OK. Cool. Thanks.


Is this the shifter that works with a 1000/2000 model series?

[cadillackid]

thats the 3000/4000/5000 series shifter.


your current AT545 shifter will work a 2000 series perfectly.. the gears are actually R-N-D-4-2-1 but the cable, handle, etc holds the same pattern and geometry so theres no need to change the shifter unless you want to have one that has the different label.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

thats the 3000/4000/5000 series shifter.


your current AT545 shifter will work a 2000 series perfectly.. the gears are actually R-N-D-4-2-1 but the cable, handle, etc holds the same pattern and geometry so theres no need to change the shifter unless you want to have one that has the different label.

Thank you, that is stellar to know. I can always put a new label in it somehow, should I want.


I saw that shifter on eBay used for $700, and said "oh no!", then found one for $450 new. I thought I read that you, Catallackid could tap-shift your RedByrd. I still need to go back and finish that thread (and probably re-read it again, but skip the chatter/gossip posts), and the other tranny swap threads. More time today, plus I actually slept decent last night and can focus for longer than 30 seconds. I hate the city. Gimme the mountains!!! (they need to have a :exclamation: or :scream: emoji)

[cadillackid]

RedByrd is tap shiftable because of some custom software and hardware I use. Allison supports jumping up and down gear ranges via the J1939 data link and I have done prototyping of range and gear selecting with inserting J1939 and actually acting like one of those shift pads

[Mountain Gnome]

I bought a bottle of Rislone (or similar name) transmission stop slip. I know JohnnyMullet recommends the Lucas stuff. Lucas said it stops leaks mainly; it can "help stop" slip, but not on completely worn clutches. The Rislone says it "guarantees" to stop slip.


I've tried those miracle Head-Gasket-Stop-Leak chemicals that "guarantee" to break the laws of physics and seal a coolant leak, but they never work; they only clogged my radiator, and I needed a new one.


I don't expect this stop-slip stuff to work. Maybe help a little, for a short while I hope.


Any comments? Experience? If I throw away $20 and get no results, I'm OK with that, if there is a 1% chance of it working just a little for a few weeks, while I get my stuff together for a swap.


If there is a good chance it can make things worse, especially sooner than later, ...... I sure would like to know.


Thank you

[cadillackid]

True transmission slips are the clutches (which are stacks of steel discs and friction discs stacked every other) . When those slip you either break gears meaning the clutch starts spinning after it’s engaged or I you have very slow shifts .

Additives that stop slips and leaks usually do so by softening the seals and frictions .. makes them stickier and with seals it helps them expand and fill gaps.

I’ve found additives like that as a great very short term fix. Leak stop can be long term but softening the clutches results in more wear during shifting .. if the reason for slips was because the clutches got real hot and glazed then you can do OK with the additive .. if the reason for a slip is that one or more of the friction discs on the stack are worn partially or all to metal then you will just finish the thing off.

If the reason for slips is low line pressure then a worn pump is possible. Any debris in the internal filter will lower line pressure more..

Before I put an additive in I’d probably roll the dice and change the fluid and internal plus spin on filters.. at least rolling those dice you know the fluid and filter are clean.. the detergents may finish off the trans but so would an additive if it’s that bad.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

True transmission slips are the clutches (which are stacks of steel discs and friction discs stacked every other) . When those slip you either break gears meaning the clutch starts spinning after it’s engaged or I you have very slow shifts .

Additives that stop slips and leaks usually do so by softening the seals and frictions .. makes them stickier and with seals it helps them expand and fill gaps.

I’ve found additives like that as a great very short term fix. Leak stop can be long term but softening the clutches results in more wear during shifting .. if the reason for slips was because the clutches got real hot and glazed then you can do OK with the additive .. if the reason for a slip is that one or more of the friction discs on the stack are worn partially or all to metal then you will just finish the thing off.

If the reason for slips is low line pressure then a worn pump is possible. Any debris in the internal filter will lower line pressure more..

Before I put an additive in I’d probably roll the dice and change the fluid and internal plus spin on filters.. at least rolling those dice you know the fluid and filter are clean.. the detergents may finish off the trans but so would an additive if it’s that bad.

Thanks, that's the info I wanted to know, stated clearly (to me, anyway).


I already changed the fluid, but not the filters. I bought a new spin-on, and the internal filter is less than 12K miles, maybe 6K? I forget now, but it's in my vehicle log (everything from fuel-ups to oil-changes to alternator rebuilds to air-compressor replacements to new tires in that log by date; I think I will be able to document a real fuel-mileage drop since this tranny slippage problem just started.). I think the spin-on has only 6K miles on it. I was wondering if it was worth installing the new spin-on, if I'm just gonna replace the tranny, but it's not expensive ( <$20 I think it was). But if it's clogged, the tranny clutches are likely toast, wouldn't you say?


Glazed or ground-down? Pull the pan to find out. Worth the time? That means another 8-10 quarts of fresh fluid also, if I remember.


I'm guessing glazed, by the way it drives. But sometimes, at very slow speeds (5MPH or less), at very low fuel-pedal, I almost think I feel it starting to chatter, ever so slightly, if there is a bit of resistance (like I'm turning the steering wheel hard). But it could just be the motor vibrating, or the roads. I only felt it a few times (2 or 3); at higher speeds or torque it is not noticeable if it is present. It drives nice and smooth and shifts just fine, as long as I keep the torque/HP down; had some jerk give me the finger last night, for going so slow, though. It shifts at the proper speed, just if I up the fuel, the RPMs go way up at the end of the gear-cycle before shifting. Keep a light foot, and you don't really even notice a problem. I still can climb hills, and the RPMs don't necessarily climb to redline right away, but they seem higher.


However, in my mind anyway, the clutches were destroyed at low RPM by torque. That makes me think they are ground-down, not glazed. The highway driving at high RPM with hot fluid I would think would cause them to glaze.


Maybe I'll get my ducks in more of a row on the tranny swap, then try the stop-slip additive. I think it is full-up, and need to drain a quart of fluid to add the stop-slip, anyway. I'm trying to avoid buying a beater car or worse, renting one, when it comes time to shut her down, or she shuts herself down.

[cadillackid]

the modulator sounds like it is working good.. when you have your foot down harder the RPMs should go up, if the trans has a cable modulator then its progressive to the point at which your foot is floored on the gas, the trans will shift at right near engine redline.. thats not a slip, thats normal.. and the modulator runs up the line pressure as you press the gas pedal so it gives the clutches more oomph to engage quickly..



glazing occurs if the clutches ever are slipping at a decent RPM.. ie the fluid pressure is too low to hold them because the fluid is really hot or has been run low.. clogged filters can cause the line pressure to drop.. imagine a stick shift where you hold the clutch pedal 1/3 down and drive (low spring pressure on the plate). youll slip it easy if you get on the gas .. and glaze the friction disc.. if you slip the H*L out of a standard shift clutch to the point smoke is rolling.. oyu'll notice for awhile afterwards that it really doesnt want to grab as hard.. its glazed..



in an AT545 its tough to feel slips during shifts as the torque converter is always purposely slipping.. 1st to 2nd is the one you notice the most and even on a new 545 it is kind of a Bump-da-Goooo kind of feel.. now if the 1-2 shift kind of just slowly slides the RPM down after the first bump.. or it flares.. (RPM spikes up before it drops) then there is something up..



people do get lucky and overheat a trans and it lives to tell stories.. the AT540 in my superior still works perfect.. I boiled the fluid out of that thing.. granted i got it stopped before i lost more than a quart or 2 but still a temp gun shot at the side of the trans was well over 300.. on plain ole dexron..

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the modulator sounds like it is working good.. when you have your foot down harder the RPMs should go up, if the trans has a cable modulator then its progressive to the point at which your foot is floored on the gas, the trans will shift at right near engine redline.. thats not a slip, thats normal.. and the modulator runs up the line pressure as you press the gas pedal so it gives the clutches more oomph to engage quickly..

Thanks to Simplicity (and unfortunately, his problems) I know what the modulator is and know mine is electric. I'm just barely comprehending this, but don't see exactly how it relates to my problem. (not complaining, mind you, thanks for any education!)

Originally Posted by cadillackid

glazing occurs if the clutches ever are slipping at a decent RPM.. ie the fluid pressure is too low to hold them because the fluid is really hot or has been run low.. clogged filters can cause the line pressure to drop.. imagine a stick shift where you hold the clutch pedal 1/3 down and drive (low spring pressure on the plate). youll slip it easy if you get on the gas .. and glaze the friction disc.. if you slip the H*L out of a standard shift clutch to the point smoke is rolling.. oyu'll notice for awhile afterwards that it really doesnt want to grab as hard.. its glazed..

That is what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

in an AT545 its tough to feel slips during shifts as the torque converter is always purposely slipping.. 1st to 2nd is the one you notice the most and even on a new 545 it is kind of a Bump-da-Goooo kind of feel.. now if the 1-2 shift kind of just slowly slides the RPM down after the first bump.. or it flares.. (RPM spikes up before it drops) then there is something up..

It really seems to shift just fine. Not a clunk; nor a free-wheel-until-it-grabs kinda feel. Only under full-fuel does it seem to shift any different, and that is just higher RPM, still smooth. Of course, I generally like to floor it from a stop-light, just to keep up with traffic. Not doing that these days.....


Made it to page 40 on the "drivetrains" thread, back to 2012, trying to read all I can. Still need to finish the RedByrd Transformation thread, and read it again. Actually got more than a couple hours online today.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

if you slip the H*L out of a standard shift clutch to the point smoke is rolling.. oyu'll notice for awhile afterwards that it really doesnt want to grab as hard..

I put a Kevlar clutch in my Nissan King Cab 4×4 pickup. 10% less friction, with 20% heavier springs. (just gotta keep up with the new slave-cylinders every few years, and a bit harder on your leg)


That was perfect for off-roading. You could ride the hell out of it up a hill, slowly crawling over rocks, RPMs up, using the clutch to control torque. So smooth, so much better than factory stock. I was told it would outlive the truck. We'll see......

[Mountain Gnome]

Well, I finally pulled the trigger, and ordered a 2006 Allison 2500PTS six-speed that came out of an International school bus. It was rebuilt in 2017, according to the data tag, and the casing looks great. Saw so so so many in NY, NJ, PA, OH, WI that all looked like they spent their life in saltwater. And so far far away. Just found this one in Spokane, so no (or not many) big hills to wear it down during it's life in a school bus, no salt, etc. Saw it on craigslist a week or two ago, but that was way too far to drive with the current tranny's condition. Then I finally found it on eBay, paid for it with PayPal, so I don't mind having it shipped. Unlike other junk yards, they offer some "guarantee" and/or ability to return. So I'm happy.



Only $1250 with shipping. It looks like it has the right bellhousing (SAE #3) from the pictures. I kinda got used to looking at them and being able to tell, but I'm not sure. I'm waiting to hear from them on that before they ship it. I also found a few spare SAE #3 bell-housings for under $200 shipped, so I can order them if I need to.


I contacted Jason at transmissiontuner and he sent me an Allison catalog. It was showing how the 1000 series just is not designed for my weight of vehicle. And I really wanted the lower 1st gear (3.51:1) of the 2500 series. I also looked at my bus setup, and the torque converter housing has integral motor mounts, so if I wanted the MD653, I would have to dismount the motor in the process, also, to get the SAE #2 bellhousing pattern torque converter. Too much for me right now.


Jason's website also turned me on to the NV5400 manual tranny. THAT is what I really want. Six-speed, with a granny gear (5.x:1) and overdrive. I just don't see getting that installed in a TCFE with any kind of ease. If it could shift with a strait pattern, instead of an "H" type pattern, maybe. Still would have to rig up funny levers for the clutch pedal, and all.


Now I just gotta keep my fingers crossed that Jason comes though with a TCU as he said. He is backed up right now. I need to figure out if I will modify a stock harness, or buy his harness kit (I wait even longer for him to build the harness himself). Meanwhile, the local AAMCO will be rebuilding the tranny I just bought.


Question, if anybody is paying attention:
Can I replace the Cummins rear main crank seal without removing the torque converter housing? I would assume so. But I guess I need to remove the flywheel. Is that as heavy as one in a manual-tranny vehicle? Or is there just a flexplate that is thin and lightweight? Or do I really need to remove the TC housing to remove that stuff to get to the seal?



Gotta go and warn the AAMCO to look out for it, and hopefully make it to the shop out of town and talk to the guy about doing the work there.

[cadillackid]

sounds great!! the 1000 series sure can take the weight.. duramaxx guys are pushing huge amounts of HP and torque at quality built 1000s, lots of billet upgrade parts out there for them (and well worth it) get one from Suncoast or PCM Performance or Defeo. or better yet ship it to Amarillo and have Richard at Precision build it for you... the 2500 PTS does have a nice first gear.. that front planet set (planet, ring, sun) is what makes the magic there. in my opinion no one should ever build an allison back stock.. esp the Converter.. stock converters suck..



your 2500 PTS should be SAE3 ive not seen on yet that had SAE2.. ive seen quite a few 2400's with #2 Bells..



and finally.. friends dont let friends take their trannies named Allison to AAMCO..

[Ronnie]

I do believe you should have a flexplate and not a heavy flywheel to remove to get to the rear main. In some of the bigger stuff I mess with the flywheel for the torque converter is well over a hundred pounds

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

sounds great!! the 1000 series sure can take the weight.. duramaxx guys are pushing huge amounts of HP and torque at quality built 1000s, lots of billet upgrade parts out there for them (and well worth it) get one from Suncoast or PCM Performance or Defeo. or better yet ship it to Amarillo and have Richard at Precision build it for you... the 2500 PTS does have a nice first gear.. that front planet set (planet, ring, sun) is what makes the magic there. in my opinion no one should ever build an allison back stock.. esp the Converter.. stock converters suck..

your 2500 PTS should be SAE3 ive not seen on yet that had SAE2.. ive seen quite a few 2400's with #2 Bells..

and finally.. friends dont let friends take their trannies named Allison to AAMCO..

Well, I'm trying to get them to give me a price on a upgrade over specs on the rebuild, but "their supplier has been slow to respond". They won't do it at all if I supply the rebuild kit, because they then can not offer a warranty, which their franchise contract requires.....
And I don't know anything about those other companies, other than the SunCoast price was a bit out of my ballpark.
The AT545 was "rated" at more HP and torque than my motor produces. But the actual load on the drivetrain killed it. It was running perfect, not glazed from high-speed highway driving, then the hill destroyed it. Likely, (maybe?), the highway driving ruined the fluid, and that did not buffer the clutches enough, but in the end, I had a tranny that was rebuilt and in "good" condition, that died in a minute.
I'm not looking to beef-up my Cumming; maybe a few more ponies, but not much. The stock Allison 2500 is quite a big jump in "ratings" over the AT545, so I'm happy with that, combined with the lower 1st gear for climbing those hills easier.


The torque converter! I forgot to ask AAMCO about that. Are they rebuilding that, too? Is that extra? The $3700+ "rebuilt" tranny from the junk yard didn't even come with one (or the bell housing).


The bell housing on the one I just bought is SAE #3 (16+7/8" bolt hole center to bolt hole center). Perfect. Another bonus over getting an Allison 1000 series, since most I saw online came with the Chevy/GMC bell.


As far as AAMCO goes, I'm just not into shipping this thing all over the U.S. and back. I'm broke as it is. I checked the other shops locally, and they won't do a bench-rebuild, and about freaked out when I told them I had a bus in the first place.


AAMCO is a franchise, not a corporate monster. I don't do corporate monsters. The rebuild will be as good as whomever the person is that actually does the job does. I talked to the manager and another guy there, and they seem level-headed and strait-forward, and not likely to put up with tweekers working in the shop (sad you gotta worry about that these days). And the no-hassle nationwide warranty. I don't like to gamble, but that's what any rebuild will be, IMO and experience.


I attached the Allison catalog that "shows" the 2000-2500 series has higher vehicle weight rating. Maybe I'm missing something here, maybe I'm not getting the physics right in my head, but putting 200HP behind a Chevy truck and 200HP behind a BlueBird bus, and one is going to create far more stress on the drivetrain, at full throttle. Note both trannies have the same HP/torque ratings, though.



I don't, however, know what GCW means in the specs. Gross Curb Weight? What is that? That is the same for the 1000 and 2000 series. The GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) is 19K for the Allison 1000, and 33K for the Allison 2500. That spec made my decision.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I do believe you should have a flexplate and not a heavy flywheel to remove to get to the rear main. In some of the bigger stuff I mess with the flywheel for the torque converter is well over a hundred pounds

Thanks for the reply. I hope you are right about only a flexplate. I know that flywheel will be that heavy. That's what I'm trying to prepare for if need be.

[Mountain Gnome]

I guess it didn't like the "Allison Highway Series" .pdf


probably too big.


I'll try again here, but....




Yep, it is 2.24MB, and the limit is 2.0MB

[Mountain Gnome]

I used my "snipping tool" for the first time in over 20 years. Pat me on the back.....

[s2mikon]

GCW is gross combined weight. Truck and trailer.

[Mountain Gnome]

I've been limping it around the last month or whatever while I wait for Jason to catch up with other clients.


The last couple of days I almost felt like it was gripping better. Really? Or was I just getting a little heavier on the foot?


Then today, thinking just that at first, I came to a stoplight (notice how they are never golights?), and when it turned green, the tranny hard-shifted from what felt like 3rd to 1st. Bang-boom. And lots of slip. Did it once or twice again. This damn town is the red-light-shuffle capital of the country. Can't get anywhere fast, that's for sure! Go a block. Stop. Go a block. Stop. Go a block. Stop. Repeat for miles.........


I made it to get a shower, then it was pulling from a stop at idle again in the parking lot. Got a few blocks down the road (hey, no stoplight there!), and it started going completely out. All slip, no go.


I just made it to a side-street and pulled in and barely got it to park. Very lucky to find that one spot in several miles of no spots.


I lost my first bottle of Rislone Stop Slip. It was in my stairway by the front door, and something fell and knocked it under the bus unnoticed, where it got run over by the front tire and exploded everywhere. Just as I was feeling like a jerk for dumping oil on the road, another car parked behind my spot and dumped a gallon or two, complete with a long trail leading there. Sigh. So much for the water. Water is life.....


Anyways, I got another bottle from the parts store a block away, and added it. I figure it can't make it worse now! I noticed the fluid was a bit lower now (it was full before, so that was another reason I didn't add the first bottle). As I mentioned in another thread on tranny fluid, the tranny seems to be leaking from the front main seal. Apparently from the Valvoline Full Synthetic that says it works with Allison trannys, but Allison says it ruins the seals.



Then what Cadallackid said hit me a bit harder. I've been thinking about that this last month or so. Should have listened to him.


I pulled the spin-on filter. I bought one when I was planning on changing the fluid anyway, but then I figured the tranny was shot, why waste the filter?


The old filter was full of metallic dust-gunk. Packed full. More dust than fluid came out of it.


Now I'm thinking that was the reason it started shifting all skrewy. And as Christopher said, not allowing enough line-pressure to keep the clutches tight.


So if I had listened to him back then (a month ago was it?) and changed that filter, I may not have continued to damage the clutches. Now I can only hope that I will have some life in it, and the Rislone does not then just kill it right off.


Sigh.


Anyway, y'all seem to have been right. I underestimated how long it would take Jason to get to me. The only guy with the answers in the country, it seems. So far he's been very helpful. But I can't wait any longer now.


So I guess I'll be getting another AT545 (or maybe AT540....that has the parking pawl, correct? otherwise the same? I don't see a PTO on it.). Then limp that around for a week or month or 6 months or however long it will take for Jason to catch up and get me a TCU.


Just gotta figure out where to install it. Let AAMCO do it? They were backed up a month, but that was a month ago. Tow it out of town to the guy who said I could do the job there? Do it on the side of the road?


At least a car rental is not an outlandish price.


Again, internet/power challenged here, so see ya next time!


(hope y'all are laughing about this as hard as I will be. At least I will in 10 years or so.)

[magnakansas]

Where abouts are you? I might be able to help a transmission swap

William