Toasted Tranny ?

[Mountain Gnome]

What I don't have any clue about is:


What is the Torque Converter Stall speed? What does that mean?


Someone in a post above mentioned that (s)he didn't understand why mine didn't "stall" up that hill that killed my AT545 (I think that's what was said). I don't understand what that means. Stall the engine?

[Mountain Gnome]

Actually, the more I look, the more they look the same!


I was looking at smaller versions before, or not side-by-side.


You can see the "3" molded into the bellhousing on the second one. Almost looks like a "1" on the first one?


The Allison dealer is looking more and more like the path of least resistance.....


What gets me is LKQ can take my tranny's serial number and rebuild me one just like it (for more $$$ and longer wait) but they can't tell me if it will match up to one they have.

[Booyah45828]

I'm likely the person that mentioned stall speed.

Stall speed is the point where torque multiplication in the converter no longer occurs.

Below it, and the engine rpm is higher then the input shaft rpm, and throught the pumping action in the converter, the fluid hydraulically applies more torque to the input shaft. Above it, and the fluid in the converter acts similar to a solid coupling, linking the input shaft and engine together in a near 1:1 ratio.

The multiplication that occurred when you were in 1st gear and pulling hard, was sending way more torque through the trans then it normally would see. Which caused the clutches to slip, burn up, and create the problems your experiencing. I'm not saying you ruined it, but a worn trans might not handle that, whereas a fresh unit might.

There have been various ratios/speeds for the at545 over the years.

I think I remember there were 6 originally.

This article here mentions 4. This one here only mentions 2. And IIRC, allison really only offers 1 with their rebuilds anymore.

The reason for the different ratios, is because the engines they're coupled to have different rpm and power levels. So you want to tailor the converter to match the engine. Gas engines will have significantly different requirements compared to a v8 diesel, which will be different from a small displacement I6, which will also be different to a large displacement I6.

[Booyah45828]

The tail housings look the same to me, the difference is one looks to have a dust cap on it, the other doesn't.

There could be some internal differences, like governor speed (it's different based off of the engine) and speedometer(mechanical vs electric), and modulator type. But those aren't impossible to change, and you already have what you need in the junk trans. The valve body might have some tweeks done to it as well based off of usage.

The reason they can't guarantee compatibility with a reman unit, but can with a rebuild, is because they're not rebuilding it, but chartering the rebuild through another company, and that other company is who guarantees compatibility. Whether it's weller, jasper, etc. it might even be allison themselves rebuilding it. I'd bet money that lkq isn't the one rebuilding it though.

[Booyah45828]

Honestly, if the converter isn't right, a th400 6 pad converter will work, and you can get those from a number of different manufacturers with a variety of stall speeds.

One of the ideas I had with my bus was to swap rear gears and then swap in this unit here with my current at545. It's a low stall unit and oddly enough one of the reviews for it says it fits a 545 and works excellent behind a 12v cummins.

Figured the lower stall speed would keep the converter from excessively heating the fluid due to the slower engine rpm at 55 mph.

[s2mikon]

When I rebuilt my AT 545 that is behind my IHC 392 I used the converter for the 8.2 Detroit fuel pincher. It had a lower stall speed that matched the 392 engine better than the one in it. Still running too.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Stall speed is the point where torque multiplication in the converter no longer occurs..........
Thanks for explaining it!



I'm not saying you ruined it, but a worn trans might not handle that, whereas a fresh unit might.
I'm saying I ruined it! Either that or risk driving the whole bus backwards off a roadside cliff and rolling it down the hill.





There have been various ratios/speeds for the at545 over the years.

I think I remember there were 6 originally.

This article here mentions 4. This one here only mentions 2. And IIRC, allison really only offers 1 with their rebuilds anymore.

The reason for the different ratios, is because the engines they're coupled to have different rpm and power levels. So you want to tailor the converter to match the engine. Gas engines will have significantly different requirements compared to a v8 diesel, which will be different from a small displacement I6, which will also be different to a large displacement I6.

I see. I think he (at LKQ) said this was "geared for International diesels". I now assume he meant the TC, not the internal gearsets (1-4). If my bus moves on its own and can make it to warmer drier weather where I can do more to it, I'm happy at this point!


I sent him a note saying they look the same to me (except for the cover as you mention). He said he sent the wrong pic, and sent another of what looks like an Allison 1000 or 2000 series with an SAE #2 bell, with it's removable tail that can be replaced with a 4×4 adapter. So I think he was just getting himself confused with model numbers, but I'm glad he was trying to make sure I got the right part.


If the original TC doesn't have clutches, why wouldn't I just reuse that? Besides being contaminated with metal dust (couldn't it be flushed?). Or does it need bearings internally?

[Mountain Gnome]

So I decided not to play cat-and-mouse / whack-a-mole with the cops and their orange stickers of death, and had the beast towed to the shop. Took them 3 visits, 4 trucks, and 4 guys, but AAA PlusRV did it, same day, done within 6 hours of calling.


They towed it from the rear, so I had to take my aftermarket universal tow-hitch off. They didn't want to skrew up anything with the motor in the front. Took me 20 mins while I waited for the truck; luckily it stopped raining right then.



The first guy was in charge, and he showed up with a little flatbed, just to check it out. He came back with 2 other guys and 2 other trucks, one a mid-sized fork-lifter. That wouldn't lift the rear end high enough to get the rear tires off the ground, due to the long overhang. And wow! That rear-end has far more drop/articulation than I ever imagined.
So they called in the big one. That could lift my rear-end 10 feet high if it needed to.


Once they got the rear tires off the ground, there was only about 5" of clearance from the front tow hooks to the ground. But it made it all 20 miles, bus drifting sidewards as the front wheels weren't quite perfectly strait. They followed with another big truck, and me behind that.


I was glad AAA did it, but State Farm said they had my back with roadside assistance towing also, if need be.



Now I'm hold-up in a motel for the next 10 days. Sigh. At least I have power for my laptop now, and I'm not sitting in the dark for 14 hours a day doing nothing but burning buds and sleeping, only to run around during the daylight trying to get stuff done in the rain. I rented a compact economy car, and they gave me a luxury sedan at no additional charge. I must be getting old. Sigh.



After they got it loaded, they had to tie down the steering wheel, and I was inside with one guy as he did that. Just then someone outside yells "hey that's my RV!". Then some other stuff, and I heard something to the effect of "good! get that sh*t out of here". I heard the tow-driver say the tranny went out and they were taking it to the shop, and the guy say "oh, it's broken down... ...good thing to have AAA" or something. I went out to see who this little pr*ck was, and walked right up to his lifted 4×4 truck window and stared him directly in the eye, and watched his "holier than thou" bad-ass attitude shrink down to - - - - a little pr*ck. Then he drove off.


There are thousands of homeless folks around here, every day folks, just like YOU out there reading this in your warm dry comfortable home, who are out there on the street in tents or in old RVs because their entire community burned to the ground. Some are old old men and women, some young couples with kids; but yes, plenty of junkies and tweekers who can't get their **** together, some using the situation as cover to sell their drugs out of RVs parked "illegally" on the street (I've been trying to avoid them, they take the nice quiet spots ).


But this guy was just a typical prejudice, but scared-sissy-a** pig. And he knew it. I could see it in his eyes when I stared into them.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome

If the original TC doesn't have clutches, why wouldn't I just reuse that? Besides being contaminated with metal dust (couldn't it be flushed?). Or does it need bearings internally?

You theoretically could. But it's full of trash, much like your filter was, and no amount of flushing will get it clean. There are internal components that wear out and should be checked as well. A converter shop could rebuild it, but that's mainly a performance thing, and isn't cheap. Any shop that's good will replace them during rebuild. It's too much of an unknown, even if your trans wasn't trashed.

If the included converter was made for an IH I6 Diesel, your cummins will be similar enough to not notice an issue.

If you're worried about it, use that converter that I linked from summit. But don't clean and reuse your current one, you're asking for trouble with that and will end up with a lot of it.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

You theoretically could. But it's full of trash, much like your filter was, and no amount of flushing will get it clean. There are internal components that wear out and should be checked as well. A converter shop could rebuild it, but that's mainly a performance thing, and isn't cheap. Any shop that's good will replace them during rebuild. It's too much of an unknown, even if your trans wasn't trashed.

If the included converter was made for an IH I6 Diesel, your cummins will be similar enough to not notice an issue.

If you're worried about it, use that converter that I linked from summit. But don't clean and reuse your current one, you're asking for trouble with that and will end up with a lot of it.

Thanks again for all your feedback!


The tranny is ready to ship and I asked again what motor this was rebuilt for. DT466


So it looks like the TC will work, I guess.


I asked about the max input-shaft (motor RPM) speed, and he couldn't tell me. I tried the My Transmission page at Allison's website, but the rebuilt serial number doesn't come up. LKQ says rebuilt by OE, but the guy says International subbed out the job to someone who went out of business, so they are somewhat clueless as to exactly what is in these rebuilt units.


But I would think that the DT466 has a max input of 2600-2800. Mine was 2600, and that was pushing it up there, but even if I gotta limp at 2800, for now that may just have to do.


Anybody got any input on the max input for this motor? Thanks!

[s2mikon]

You are going to be fine. Those 2 engines are very close rpm wise.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by s2mikon

You are going to be fine. Those 2 engines are very close rpm wise.

Thanks for the quick response. That's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm hoping. Looks like that is what I'm betting on!

[s2mikon]

As soon as you can install a temp gauge in the oil cooler out line and monitor it closely 250 max. If needed add a second cooler. I did that on both of my at 545 equipped trucks. Both of them have been used to pull up to 36000 gross without over heating.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

I'm likely the person that mentioned stall speed.

Stall speed is the point where torque multiplication in the converter no longer occurs.

Below it, and the engine rpm is higher then the input shaft rpm, and throught the pumping action in the converter, the fluid hydraulically applies more torque to the input shaft. Above it, and the fluid in the converter acts similar to a solid coupling, linking the input shaft and engine together in a near 1:1 ratio.

The multiplication that occurred when you were in 1st gear and pulling hard, was sending way more torque through the trans then it normally would see. Which caused the clutches to slip, burn up, and create the problems your experiencing. I'm not saying you ruined it, but a worn trans might not handle that, whereas a fresh unit might.

There have been various ratios/speeds for the at545 over the years.

I think I remember there were 6 originally.

This article here mentions 4. This one here only mentions 2. And IIRC, allison really only offers 1 with their rebuilds anymore.

The reason for the different ratios, is because the engines they're coupled to have different rpm and power levels. So you want to tailor the converter to match the engine. Gas engines will have significantly different requirements compared to a v8 diesel, which will be different from a small displacement I6, which will also be different to a large displacement I6.

I have never heard that explanation for stall, and no I am not at all saying you are incorrect, just saying what I have always heard for stall speed is the speed at which if you stand on your brakes and floor it gently not suddenly the max rpms the engine reaches is the stall speed. Perhaps what you say is the mechanics of why this is stall speed?

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I have never heard that explanation for stall, and no I am not at all saying you are incorrect, just saying what I have always heard for stall speed is the speed at which if you stand on your brakes and floor it gently not suddenly the max rpms the engine reaches is the stall speed. Perhaps what you say is the mechanics of why this is stall speed?

Yeah, sort of. What you're doing by holding the brakes and flooring it is the stall test.

Stall speed is the point where pump and turbine are hydraulically coupled and spinning at/near 1:1 ratio. The stall point will vary based off of rpm, torque input and torque output. Below the stall point, the pump and turbine aren't coupled, and the fluid flow in the converter is amplified by the stator, creating torque multiplication onto the turbine.

Doing a stall test holds the transmission input shaft stationary, which holds the turbine(converter output) stationary. So your only variables left in the equation would be rpm and the torque applied. Being at wide open throttle gives those 2 variables a fixed relationship with one another(think dyno graph), which will give you a specific rpm based off the torque applied. The stall test only shows the max engine rpm that can occur with 0 transmission rpm.

If you'd upgrade the engine to make it more powerful, the torque/rpm(think dyno graph again) relationship will change, and so will the rpm the converter stalls at. Same scenario if you'd change engines.

[Mountain Gnome]

Well, only a week to go. Tranny is ordered and on its way to AAMCO. Only $804 with shipping, but no warranty, even if DOA. Maybe I should have taken it to the Allison dealer.....I hate gambling.


Meanwhile, I'm just havin' a good ol' time in this hotel. They have a ..... wait for it ..... TV here! Amazing cultural example of modern American Life.


So I got to see the last half of "Forrest Gump" again. Ho Hum. Just another sad story with recycled music. Few action scenes. No exotic makeup or costumes. Ho hum. Like this guy in his uniform is supposed to be some kind of role-model or something! And who wants to see Sally Fields as an old woman who dies? Come on! You're ruining my pubescent childhood memories!



But then ..... came "Ant Man" the next day. Now that is a movie! Almost as good as "Justice League" that I saw last time I had a hotel room. Almost. I mean, you really can't beat that end-scene in "JL" where the bad-guy realizes he is losing and looks around in disbelief throwing a temper tantrum. I mean, what does he expect? He messed with Superman and Wonderwoman?


And then "And Man and the Wasp". How can you argue with these plot-lines? The acting? The comic-relief humor? Totally superior! Except to "JL" of course.


And now today I got to see "The Amazing Spiderman". Now that is cinematography! CGI rules! It was even better than sitting around with my friends smoking buds while I watch them play video games, and I really love to do that. And that scene where the sky-crane operators all turn their cranes so that Spiderman can swing across the city to get the lizard man! Oh so heartwarming and touching! Glad that lasted almost 2 minutes while he swang from crane to crane! Oh, and the soundtrack! Orchestrated Horns always makes me feel powerful, important, and .... well, just good! A near perfect movie, except for Sally Fields being an old motherly woman again. UUUgh!



Anyway, I really can't believe what I have been missing!


Oh yea, I also saw some crazy movie about a Korean family that moves to Arkansas or Oklahoma or something to start a farm. The old Korean "grandma" loves those wrestling shows on TV, and they don't have folks calling them "*****" everywhere they go. I mean, come on. Reality here folks! Get on board! Stop living in that fantasy land!


Anyway, it will be hard to give up such a luxury, but not too hard knowing I get to go back to sitting on a mountain cliff watching the clouds roll by. Or watching the bark on a tree grow, dry, and peel. Now THATS entertainment. Makes TV look like, well, TV.



In the mean time, I've been consumed by the "programmer's obsession" again. Once I start, it's hard to get away, until my body cries "Mary" into the wind, for sitting for long hours, typing away. It's something to do in between movies on TV. I pulled a 10-year-old file out of the folder and started developing it again. It's a PHP-powered JavaScript-assisted HTML-based desktop app to "sync directory folders".


See, I just found the stereo head unit I've been looking for for over a year, a CD player / HD radio-receiver, 4-volt 4-channel pre-outs (I don't use the built-in amp) Sirius-XM ready, with BlueTooth, aux-in, and USB in the front AND rear.



Of course the tranny went out the next week, but I got the head unit in the mean time.


Most importantly, it has full 24-bit DAC, and likely they are Burr-Brown DACs. I hated digital music until I heard these DACs in a Pioneer. I replaced a "high-end" JVC unit with similar specs, and the sound difference is undeniable. Horns and cymbals sound brassy, not like tin. Vocals sound near live, not like a cassette tape recording. The bass is much fuller and much deeper, but not punchy, overblown, or "turned-up" like a "bass-boost" button does. In other words, the waveform is much "smoother" and "coherent" with less distortion.


So anyways, now I want to put the 2GB of live Pink Floyd I have, plus all the live Greatful Dead stuff, plus any other stuff, all on a hard-drive and keep it plugged into the back USB port.


The software I'm writing will help me keep a backup of my music files, specifically, but also any files I have. Plug the external drive into the computer, run the software, give it 2 folder paths (in two different drives), and it will find the files in one folder that are not in the other, and visa-vera if you want. It can also then copy them. Then I can download a bunch of stuff, and transfer it to the Pioneer player's drive with ease, and don't have to remember what I just downloaded.


Or it can also compare file ages. That is what I started it for years ago. When I work on large software projects with multiple files, lots of images and other data that doesn't change, etc., all in a folder hierarchy, I can keep a daily backup on a thumb-drive (or where-ever). Not only will it find new files, it can tell if two files with the same name in the same named folder, but on two different drives are the same age, and if not, the newer one will be copied over the old one. I could just copy the whole folder with its subfolders every day, but with many pics, that takes time, and "wears out" the drive. This finds only the ones that need updating.


It also lets you "filter" the files, so you don't copy stuff you don't want to. You can filter "in" or "out" by file-extension, file-name, folder-name, path, Perl-Compatible Regular Expressions, and POSIX-filesystem wildcard patterns.


Options exist for case-(in)sensitive comparisons (since Windows is case-insensitive, but LINUX, etc. is not), checking sub-folders recursively or not, checking file ages, moving (old) over-written files into .trash folders (with various sub-options), and finding similar files when no direct match between folders is found.



It's pretty dry stuff, this programming project. Glad I have TV.

[cadillackid]

I live in a modern house.. I think there’s 5 or 6 of those TVs in here…
My roommate has one.. it’s on in his room all the time.
Mine? Other than the new one I got this summer which has less than an hour of runtime.. I think the others combined have less than 20 hours run time and they are all 5 years or more old…

Now as monitors for writing code? Yeah those TVs def have some runtime there!! Now you are talking my language!!! Writing code with techno jamming and every window in the house open on a summer day!

Or more like jamming code sitting in my bus with whatever scenery I want for my corner-office view that day… sometimes it’s a busy city.. other times I want to be out a ways and watch it snow like crazy while I have every bus heater on high.. yeah!! That’s modern tech life at its best!!

I mean I guess missing more doom and gloom politicized TV news means I’m not “woke” or the fact I have no idea who some famous actor is that’s in another movie with a theme done 22. Times before..

And most peeps do find it boring that I can make my allison shift like a dream or that my bus logs every cell signal tower it drives by so I know the best places to park..

But I’ll take my boring life of making lots of $$ playing with toys all day. And the “stressful” life of a programmer …

Ha!! I dreamed of this what I’m doing now and now I’m living it! And all without watching CNN or HBO..

Plug an hdmi into that TV and make it a monitor they are bad ass for coding!! And leave the tuner off!! I’d gladly take writing a file program over TV any and every day!!

[Mountain Gnome]

I've got a nice big ViewSonic 1080p monitor. Incredible 20,000:1 contrast with vivid colors, looks the best of any monitor I've seen -better than the laptop for sure, but it's OK - definitely better than those washed-out Apple screens. It doesn't have a built-in tuner for TV, though. My laptop is a widescreen 1600×900, so it is good for coding, also. Put the two together, and that is da bomb! Run a browser in the smaller laptop screen, and the code editor in the big one, float folder windows around.



I like making cross-platform HTML-based projects (it's just a hobby), so that works well. I'm a cheap bastard, and use Komodo Edit these days; it's free. I like that I can reprogram the keyboard and get an extra 100+ "international" characters with a keystroke. The monitor kills my "house" battery in the BlueBird pretty fast, though; and it's mounted inside the bus, so there it sits for now.


My problem is I really do get obsessed with programming. I will sit there for near 20 hours if I'm not careful, if some problem to solve is getting to me and I'm fixin' it. I taught myself in the early 1980s, writing operating system upgrades in 6809 Assembly Language (even tweeking the Machine Language bytes in memory directly in some places), skipping school to do so, smoking buds the whole time. They didn't even offer programming classes back then. By the time they did, it was a joke to me.....programming in BASIC to put my name on the screen. But sit in a office in a monkey suit and make bookoos of bucks jammin' code? NO!


Wish I could figure out how to sell myself in that industry now-a-days, but there are plenty of kids who are actually more hip on the emerging tech than I am.


But ==I== find you tweeking your Allison shift=patterns very interesting, even before I got into a swap. I appreciate Jason and him providing the tech necessary for the swap, and want to make him money so he can keep at it, but at the same time I would love to know the shift-pattern tables' organization so I could fine-tune it myself. Just 'cause I like doing stuff like that myself. I gladly pay someone to install a new windshield or physically rebuild my tranny, but that's about it, thinking off the top of my head.



And I forgot:

The other movie I saw, the first one, was about some American kid who got busted with hash in Turkey in the early 1970s, and he got sentenced to 20 years! Imagine that! And he's callin' them "pigs" to their face in court for doing so. What kind of culture do "they" have over there! Barbarians! Glad I live in the land of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" where such a thing would never be tolerated by any citizen.


But even in that Turkish prison, they had more room to move around than I did in my bus in the rain, or even in this hotel room (still in the rain). More human interaction. More ..... It actually stopped raining for a 1/2 day yesterday, but I was in obsession-mode with my code, and didn't even open the door. I knew I needed to be careful when I pulled that file out of the drawer..... I'll be lucky to make it to dryer, warmer weather, without being stuck at some rest stop, jammin' code for 3 days till the cops make me move on to the next rest-stop.


Worst is I relapsed and ate pizza for 2 days. Couldn't get away fast enough to buy good food and cook it. Pushed it until I needed to eat now! And pizza is at least vegetarian. And soooo soooo good, even when it's lame! Like sex.



I was sitting at the library, in front of a window, when I revitalized this software project. You, Christopher, in your DEV bus have the windows. There are so many whacked folks walking around out there, I want my curtains closed. Folks keep knocking on my door day and night. WTF? Like I'm gonna answer! People screaming, yelling obscenities at midnight; some young, likely homeless girl with a baby yelling over and over "no I'm not leaving" while what looks like the new cop-alternative response team stands around. Fire Trucks that show up and block the driveway. (And I haven't even had time to complain about how the whole building shakes day and night from the trucks on the next-door interstate overpass).



So after hours of typing, rolling a Kensington Trackball (I hate meeses to pieces), and sitting, my arms are like knots, my back is "uuugh", my knees are "ooooowwwie!", my vibes feel like I'm plugged into a static-electric blanket in deep winter in a gas-heated house. Then it's TV time. If there is a movie, at least.


And as I figured, just as I got the AT545 ordered and on it's way, Jason says he's ready.

[Mountain Gnome]

Oh dear me.


I sent Jason some pics of my new "2006 Allison 2500PTS" and he says by looking at a sensor or something, he can tell it's a 5-speed, not a 6, so it's not a 2006. But I gotta take it apart to tell for sure, he says.



He even warned me before I bought it that the junkyards are clueless and will rip me off.





So that project gets shut down for now. guess I'm glad I have an AT545 on the way. Hope that's not DOA.


Now I just gotta get an Allison dealer to verify this claim, and then get my $$$ back from the seller on eBay that I paid with PayPal. So I'll get my $$$ back.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

i have a contact at an allison service shop that used to tell me everything i wanted to know by serial and model number.
but its been over 5 years since i asked them for anything.
PM me your tranny model and serial number and i will reach out to them again and if need be make a stop or out of the way trip to see them face to face.
not that far out of the way and last time i was there it was to install heat and ac into a heavy/medium duty diesel shop that never had any and once i left none of them from the top down to the mechanics minded answering any questions i had including an old timer that loved my 8.2 n/a diesel and even gave me the part numbers for the upgrades that could be done without blowing it up.
PM me maybe i can help.