bus will not start

[alpinekid]

thanks for the info, I'm hoping to get back to it this week. It amazing how life gets in the way of fun stuff.

[alpinekid]

Arrg! If I could work on this problem more than an hour or two every
once in a while it would go a lot faster.

My Plan
=======
Separate the fuel line before the engine fuel pump, there is a hose and
clamp joint that is convenient.(image 1) and at the filter (image 2) and
using an electric fuel pump feed the filter directly from a can. (image
3)
Process;
--------
construct an adapter fuel line into the fuel filter:
- 3/8 steel line; this provides something to connect with the gas
can/electrical pump.
- backing sleeve - https://www.mcmaster.com/52215K509
- o-ring- https://www.mcmaster.com/9452K21
- flare nut, female threads - https://www.mcmaster.com/50695K226
Its hard to know which backing sleeve/nut will work.
This will bypass the engine fuel pump and all fuel lines before the
filter.

Since this is a test, how important is it to flare 37-degrees, I only
have a 45 flare tool? Any seal that will work of 5-10 minutes will be
fine.

Using an electric fuel pump, pump some fuel into a can then change
things around and using the electric fuel pump, pump fuel directly into
fuel filter. This should eliminate any question of fuel starvation, air
leaks, pin holes and bad fuel pump.

Then crank the engine and it should start, right?

Asumptions:
-----------
since its a single flare and there is a backing sleeve, its 37-degrees,
right?

since there is a metal sleeve, its an o-ring at the end and not an
olive, right?

An olive would be in the nut, right?

Thoughts:

IF this works maybe install electric fuel pump instead of replacing the
mechanical one.
Thanks

p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; }

[Booyah45828]

Remove all of that. The brass fitting that the olive/flare goes into is npt into the filter head. Remove that brass fitting, and install a 1/4" npt elbow 3/8" barb. Use teflon thread sealant on it. Then run 3/8 fuel rated rubber hose from there to your electric pump outlet. You can then run the inlet of the electric pump into your fuel can pictured.

You'll also want to either unhook the hose into the mechanical pump, or run the pump outlet into a bucket, as once this fires, there is a good chance that will start pumping fuel from the tank and you don't want to be scrambling while it's dumping fuel onto the ground.

After you've got it up and running. Figure out a way to Plumb the inlet of the electric pump into the outlet of the mechanical. Your little electric pump won't suck enough fuel to create enough pressure to run down the road, but if it's fed fuel from the mechanical it will be okay. And being that the electric is after the mechanical, you don't have to worry about blowing the diaphragm of the mechanical with too much pressure.

[Booyah45828]

With it hooked up like this, it might take a little cranking to work the air out of the injection pump, lines, and injectors. But once the air is worked out, it should fire off, so long as you have a working glow plug system.

[alpinekid]

thanks I didnt even think about changing the whole elbow. I guess i was trying to break as few connection as possible.

[Booyah45828]

Yeah, change it out. There probably was a good reason they did that years ago, but those olives are prone to leaking and aren't all that common to find. I changed the hose out from my filter to the injection pump in similar fashion when my olives there leaked. I figured if the hose ever deteriorates and leaks, I can replace it again with hose available at any parts store. Those olives are a different story.

FYI, don't try replacing the line from the filter-injection pump on yours. I believe ford used a machine thread on the injection pump nose, whereas on my IH they used an npt fitting. Certain online vendors sell a "hardline delete kit" that you'd have to buy if you wanted to replace that line.

[alpinekid]

thanks for the tip. I'm back from a trip, a trip I could have done with the bus if the bus was working, and this is the highest priority thing for me to do.

[alpinekid]

progress I have by-passed the engine pump and feed the fuel filter directly.

It is in max-max mode; It's sucking fuel out of the primary fuel tank and the bus started just like it should.
The next step is to rig a 3/8 tee and feed fuel to both the external electric pump and the engine pump with a hose connected to the output of the engine pump running into a bucket. The goal is to see if there is any life in the engine pump.

a) nothing comes out → pump is bad
b) something comes out → I've been stupid and just didnt crank long enough like everyone said. I just didnt know how long is "long". I didnt want to burn up my starter.


Thanks for all your help, its not over yet but I was able to move it back and forth 4 ft.
I'm still fearing replacing the fuel pump.

[Booyah45828]

Progress is good.

You might be tempted to keep that electric pump outright, and you'll find that most electric pumps don't provide enough flow/pressure to be sufficient. In that case some IDI owners have found that running an electric pump inline after the mechanical is beneficial. It gives them the ability to prime the system before starting, and then allows the mechanical to supply the fuel volume that the engine requires. It also makes fuel filter changes much easier as well.

This works so long as the electric fuel pump has large enough fittings and doesn't have an anti-siphoning feature.

Chasing fuel/air leaks isn't always fun, and some people give up and go the easy route of electric pump in place of the mechanical. I say this in the hopes that you don't try that, or you do it right and get a good enough electric pump from the get go.

[alpinekid]

thanks for the encouragement. I intent to change the mechanical pump. I hate kludges, they are always come back to bite me.

I've finished testing with a tee in the fuel line, running fuel to both the electrical and mechincal pumps through clear lines . The mechanical pump showed no sign of sucking, the fuel never moved up that line, not even a little even with the engine running.

I'm starting to research fuel pumps but the specs from the distributors is confusing.
Some spec pressure, some volume, some type of fuel.

napa says one thing, oreilly says another and carid says a combination of stuff.
napa say delphi-HFP907 and delphi-MF0050 are both compatible but carid says one is for diesel and the other is for gas.

napa shows pictures but one pump is short arm and the other is long arm.
all three compatible pumps show different gasket patterns. some show two gaskets.

I could keep going but you get the point.
Anyone out there with actual experience that can give some guidance would be of great help.
Right now it looks like I just have to pull the pump and see what I have.
I also want to figure out why it failed since it looks newer/cleaner than other stuff around it.

[alpinekid]

well I'm back at it. I'm working on removing the fuel pump.

I have moved the heavy power cable to the starter and that gave me access to the inlet and outlet ports.
After some penetrating oil I got the outlet port off and then the inlet port. That one was relatively easy.

I'll bet you can guess what comes next.

The front mounting bolt was easy but the rear one.... OMG
I can't see it, I can only feel one corner.

Does anyone have any hints or experience?

How did you get to it? It seems that the only way is over the top with just the right length extension.
And then how do you get it back in?



Are you sure its not better to leave it in place, plug the ports and go electric?



This vehicle is a van chassis and I have to come at it from below.

[Booyah45828]

You get it with the right length socket/extension(s). I also use an electric or pneumatic ratchet when spinning it in or out.

I prefer the mechanical pump. They seem to last much longer then most of the electric ones, and it provides the correct amount of fuel and pressure the engine needs.

You can go electric if you feel replacing the mechanical pump is hopeless. Use a carter p4070 or something similar. Make sure your water in fuel sensor or fuel filter light works, as that will warn you that the pump is no longer working/sufficient.

[alpinekid]

Thanks, I'm going to keep trying, it just nice to know my options.

[alpinekid]

the fuel pump is on my bench
Now I wonder how I can test it to prove that it was bad. I'm really hoping that it is bad because I would hate to think I went all that trouble for nothing.
I also have no idea how I'm getting the new one back in.


Its got pierce on the casting with a number on the base 6027809316
Does that mean anything to anyone?

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

do you have a bench vice at a good height to be able to secure the pump and push the lever?
if so you can hook up an inlet from a fuel can and maybe even prime the inlet line by pouring some full in it before connection and then hook it to the pump and manually pump it to see if it moves fuel and if it does and you can pump it easily add a line and a fuel pressure guage to the outlet and see what pressure it is moving and if it is holding that pressure in the vice.

[BarnYardCamp]

fuel pumps aren't very expensive. Having gone through the trouble of removing the old one, I would not reinstall it. Also, when that style pump fails, they usually contaminate the crankcase with raw gas. How does the engine oil look/smell?

Another thought, (and keep in mind that I have no experience with your type bus)
I remember years ago working on cars in my Dad's shop, on some vehicles with extremely tight clearances around the engine, we sometimes would unbolt one engine mount which would allow us to jack the engine up just a couple inches which could make all the difference in the world.

[alpinekid]

I ordered a delphi fuel pump Part # HFP907 from oreillys $40


while cleaning up the bolts etc I noticed that the washer is solid and captured on the bolt. So there is no way to add a lock washer between the head and the flat washer. Its a grade 8 with 37 stamped on the head.


but no lock washer. I also noticed how easily they came out. It took some initial force but then it was almost all finger pressure on the wrench.


What keeps these things from vibrating loose?

[BarnYardCamp]

What you probably have are flange bolts. To prevent them from loosening, use a dab of thread locker. But choose the correct formula because, some thread lockers are darn near permanent. I think you want the blue formula...the red formula requires heat to loosen the bolt once it sets. Be sure to verify this first!
Tiny tube cost $6 or $7. Find them at any auto parts store or hardware store.

[alpinekid]

well that was a bust. I went to the store and they changed the order to some unknown house part. they said that if I really wanted the actual delphi part it was a special order with an extra fee and wait a week, I guess they do this as a ?service? to the customers.



checked local napa stores and they all said special order and more money. WTH.
I smell a scam.


Then I found a napa store that says they could have it by tomorrow. it sounds good but when I have it in my hands I'll let you know,

[alpinekid]

that looks like what I have except there is no little serration on the washers. thanks, I'll look into it. I sure as hell dont want to do this job again.