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Old 07-22-2019, 11:54 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus View Post
It can happen. I'd approach your future troubleshooting focused on the very high likelihood that the two problems are related, and/or are different manifestations of the same problem with the same root cause. But sometimes two crap things can happen at once, which can lead to the most frustrating moments ever. Still, I'd eliminate every possible scenario that could explain all the behavior you've experienced before I entertained the possibility of a great coincidence.

You sure you don't have a poor ground connection somewhere?

I can't wait to find out what the problem is. I'd be surprised if it was fuel-delivery related - unless as a consequence of an electrical malfunction - but what little I do know is based on much smaller gasoline-powered engines, so I plead ignorance.
I've thought a lot about the alternator. I think that particular problem had to be a bad connection causing arcing and the heat required to melt away the entire stud. The wire leaving that connection has both a regular fuse and a fusable link before it gets anywhere else, and I think that a high voltage problem either from the voltage regulator going bad or some weird input from something external to the alternator would have done something to the fuses before melting a stud off.

If it was in fact a bad connection that caused the alternator problem, then for the problems to be related I guess I'd be looking at the arcing having caused damage to something else nearby?

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Old 07-22-2019, 12:30 PM   #62
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Did you happen to get any pics of the old alternator while still installed. Would like to see that connection to the stud. Was the nut loose at all?
That would create some heat, possibly enough to melt the stud off but have never seen that personally, I guess because the nut never generally works itself loose. Human error will do that if one forgot to tighten the nut well.
So heat gets created and perhaps not enough current flow to blow any fuse or fuse link in that configuration.


About your fuel..do you use a conditioner in your tank? This is algae growth season ya know. Is a possibility too.
Do you fill your tank slowly or hold the pump on full force when filling. Very slow is the way to go due to the amount of foam a fast fill of diesel fuel creates. Adds lots of air bubbles to the system that might give poor running at any rpm.
Glad you made it ok, was beginning to wonder!


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Old 07-22-2019, 12:50 PM   #63
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Do you have an ODB reader? Any codes?
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:54 PM   #64
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Did you happen to get any pics of the old alternator while still installed. Would like to see that connection to the stud. Was the nut loose at all?
That would create some heat, possibly enough to melt the stud off but have never seen that personally, I guess because the nut never generally works itself loose. Human error will do that if one forgot to tighten the nut well.
So heat gets created and perhaps not enough current flow to blow any fuse or fuse link in that configuration.


About your fuel..do you use a conditioner in your tank? This is algae growth season ya know. Is a possibility too.
Do you fill your tank slowly or hold the pump on full force when filling. Very slow is the way to go due to the amount of foam a fast fill of diesel fuel creates. Adds lots of air bubbles to the system that might give poor running at any rpm.
Glad you made it ok, was beginning to wonder!


John
No pics of when it was installed, but there wasn't any connection left to speak of. When I say the entire stud melted off, I mean that there actually was nothing left. The wire and terminal were just hanging behind it.

When I replaced the alternator the first time, I know that it was connected well - but the terminal was not in great shape to begin with, complete with a crack / break. I didn't think it would be a problem with a washer and strong connection, but I'm sure this was my fault. The terminal in question was removed and replaced before connecting the new alternator this time.

I'm pretty sure I have a picture of after I took it off. I'll look.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:55 PM   #65
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Do you have an ODB reader? Any codes?
Yes, I'm about to go read it now.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:59 PM   #66
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:04 PM   #67
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Here is one of how bad the terminal was by the time all this happened

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Old 07-22-2019, 04:11 PM   #68
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Beautiful shots of what once was molten metal.



Reminds me of a trailer hitch weld I saw recently but a nicer job actually imho.


Don't feel bad I remember a few cracked lugs that I had no choice to change at the time. Some last, some don't/


So hope you have this settled, code check and roll on.


John
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:10 PM   #69
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A failing cam position sensor will give you random "ignition off, ignition on" hiccups. It can also stall long enough to put you on the side of the road then restart or stall and not restart. The CPS itself is cheap (around 30 bucks) and relatively easy to replace on the front of the engine just below the water pump. It's a known issue with the 7.3/T444e engine although the later years (and your 2003 is the very latest) got more a reliable CPS. I carry a spare with me.

Sure can't hurt to have a look at the filter and strainers. Some of the Ford fuel tanks are known to have delamination problems where the inside coating of the tank flakes off and plugs the strainers. You'll need the Ford quick disconnect tools to get the fuel pickup out. They can be had at any auto parts store pretty cheaply. I cleaned my strainers with some brake cleaner spray.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:47 PM   #70
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Welcome back! Glad you got mobile again. Sorry the asides didn't degenerate sufficiently to bring Canadian Bacon to the table.
Yup, I do believe you experienced a perfect storm. Don't you feel fortunate to have been at the focal point of two convergent waves?!
Inconvenient, and quite possibly unrelated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PigPen View Post
...And at least the conversation centered on bacon while I was missing.

And it appears we are dealing with two separate problems. The weird stalling issue has persisted even after the alternator was replaced.

...And then the other interesting thing I noticed is that it seems to happen entirely in a very narrow range around a half full tank. It could be a fluke, but it did not stall at all when full or near empty. Every time it was at a half tank, it didn’t just stall - it stalled frequently. It doesn’t make sense why that would be the case to me, but I figured I would share that detail in case someone else sees something in that fact that I don’t...
Your description of that narrow band were it acts up has been like an itch that I can't... quite... reach...
The improbability of it being caused by anything other than the pump/fuel sender unit seems patently ludicrous to me.
That would be the very first thing I'd attack. While the other solutions offered on the stalling glitch are commendable, they'd only be applicable if the problem presented across the board.
As a scientist, I know that when I see a bald-faced outlier, one that is consistently repeatable, I'm behooved to run it to ground.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:30 AM   #71
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A failing cam position sensor will give you random "ignition off, ignition on" hiccups. It can also stall long enough to put you on the side of the road then restart or stall and not restart. The CPS itself is cheap (around 30 bucks) and relatively easy to replace on the front of the engine just below the water pump. It's a known issue with the 7.3/T444e engine although the later years (and your 2003 is the very latest) got more a reliable CPS. I carry a spare with me.

Sure can't hurt to have a look at the filter and strainers. Some of the Ford fuel tanks are known to have delamination problems where the inside coating of the tank flakes off and plugs the strainers. You'll need the Ford quick disconnect tools to get the fuel pickup out. They can be had at any auto parts store pretty cheaply. I cleaned my strainers with some brake cleaner spray.
I second that - have been through the 7.3 random shutdown scenario, very frustrating, turned out to be the cam sensor.

Another trouble spot is the fuel filter (on top of the middle of your engine) there should be a plastic valve on the bottom which allows you to reach straight down beside the housing with your finger and toggle it sideways. This is a low point drain to get rid of water. Not using it often enough will cause the inside of your filter housing to corrode until destruction. (Don't ask me how I know).
Regular use of fuel conditioner seems to solve a lot of problems, specialy in winter.
The fuel pumps (on the frame) have a good track record, other than to check wiring not the first place I'd look.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:28 AM   #72
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Okay, it took me longer to get the codes than I thought. The OBDII port wasn't working, and the first fuse diagram I looked up gave me the wrong location for the fuse for that. The spot it did give was missing a fuse and was too loose to hold one in, so I assumed I was dealing with a bad port and a fuse that had fallen out. I eventually looked at a different diagram that gave a spot a few numbers lower, and low and behold there was the blown fuse. Ford puts the obdii port on the same fuse as one of the cigarette lighters, and when that failed it blew the fuse.

Anyway, there were three codes:

P1211: Injector Control Pressure Out of Range Low
P0113: IAT Circuit High Input
P1280: Injector Control Pressure Sensor Above / Below Desired

Looked into the injector control pressure sensor more...

"Another symptom of a possible issue with the injector control pressure sensor is engine performance issues. A faulty sensor can throw off the fuel mixture and cause the engine to experience misfires, a loss in power and acceleration, a loss in fuel economy, and in some cases even stalling."

And while I haven't gone back out to check on the bus, on trucks this sensor is located immediately behind ....

the alternator.

So it's looking like TheHubbardBus was probably right about these problems being all related.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but all of the problems started after going over an extremely rough stretch of I90 in NY. I'm thinking that this was the sequence of events:

1. I leave a cracked terminal in place thinking that a tight connection would be good enough.
2. Over a few years this likely got looser and the crack got worse.
3. The rough stretch of I90 shook things up to the point that arcing started at the cracked terminal.
4. The arcing messed with nearby sensors, causing extremely poor performance over the next few hours.
5. The arcing eventually molts the metal to the point there is no connection left. The really bad performance ceases because there is no longer any arcing, and the battery stops charging.
6. A few sensors are messed up enough to cause lingering problems.

I'll test this hypothesis by replacing the ICP sensor next. I'm also going to go ahead and get the CPS that roach mentioned a couple times, and I'm also going to do the fuel filters because why not.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:36 PM   #73
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Good detective work!

With that info in hand I would hold off on the CPS. As Roach said by 03 they were pretty reliable. My original was a 99 and since replacement about 12 years ago I have had no issues.
Back then they were $200 Canadian (originally $400)
I am told that you can clean the business end of the newer sensors and they will usually go back to work. Again, I would hold off on that for now.

The screw on cap on the top of the fuel filter housing requires a wrench, I watched a pretty skoocum mechanic crank mine down by hand, made it about 200km until failure. What a mess, fouled my heater. After a major cleanup still had to drive with windows open for months.

My 7.3 is in a F350 crewcab which had been in a couple of accidents b4 I got it so plenty of abuse. I suspect a contributor to the accidents is the tight positioning of the brake and fuel pedals coupled with the fact that the engine can override the brake.

Other failures I have had
- failed injector wiring harness. If one side goes you are down to 4 cylinders and in limp mode. The harness is integrated into your valve cover gasket, genius right?

- bad injector driver (stand alone computer) That was no biggy, I couldn't notice any difference in performance. It showed up on a scan, after some deliberation I consented to replacement, happily it increased my fuel mileage from 19 to 23mpg (imperial) on the highway.

- exhaust leak on the front of the engine. A pencil sized steel line comes off the front of the passenger side manifold wraps around the front of the block and ends in a sensor (just above the water pump). The line rusts through from the inside and eventually pumps enough exhaust into the cab to become intolerable. If a mechanic has not seen this before they will not find it. I found mine in desperation, I pressurized my exhaust system with an air hose and a rag, might work for finding turbo leaks too.

- water pump, started failing around 200,000km

- be sure to put a new rad hose coupling on the new/rebuilt pump, the originals are steel and won't last.

- preheat system slowly wore out, all had to be replaced, including solenoid

I'm sure there are other common failures but those are my personal experiences. In this area we are pretty much all running 0-30 synthetic multigrade oil and changing it regularly, pricey but I have never replaced the injectors. In a warmer climate you might have to go heavier but we run 0 30 all year round. As well the consensus is that fuel conditioner pays for itself in many ways.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:31 PM   #74
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Getting ICP codes would definitely have me replacing the ICP. It's fairly accessible on the E-vans (as much as anything is) on the driver's side cyl head to the right of the fuel bowl (looking at the engine from the front of the van). The air filter plenum will have to come off to get at it or the fuel bowl so you might as well do them both together.

With a failing ICP the computer is supposed to default to a minimum injector pressure so the engine still runs.

I'm still betting on the CPS being the culprit here. Your intermittent quick stalling is classic failing CPS behavior.

I wouldn't think a plugged fuel filter or strainer would give you intermittent stalls like that unless the stalls happened at high throttle or high load conditions. You'd likely be seeing some white smoke too.

Depending on your level of adventurousness it would be interesting to make one change at a time to locate the actual problem. Myself? I just want the damn thing running reliably and don't mind throwing parts at the beast all at once. I figure that with a 20 year old vehicle if the part's not bad now it soon will be.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:23 PM   #75
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Ditto on all that!
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:05 PM   #76
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Sounds like fuel to me and electrical afterwards from so many starts and stops battery died with no chance to charge in between stops
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223 View Post
start it up and while running pull the positive cable or cables off of the batteries and if it doesnt stay running then the alternator is shot. if it does then the alternator is charging.
Multiple starts in short trips can cause weak batteries.
Belt slipping under engine load could cause weak batteries.
If those check good then it could just be weak batteries?
After that is checked and or replaced and the running problem still exist then its time to change the fuel filter but you good hot batteries for that.
good luck

Do not pull off the battery cables while the engine is running! Damage to the electrical system or electronics on the vehicle may or will occur.
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Old 07-24-2019, 05:51 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp6saz View Post
Sounds like fuel to me and electrical afterwards from so many starts and stops battery died with no chance to charge in between stops

We need to set up a lottery here. The correct guess takes all!
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:02 PM   #79
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Sounds good!
Winner gets a year's supply of bacon?
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:22 PM   #80
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Do not pull off the battery cables while the engine is running! Damage to the electrical system or electronics on the vehicle may or will occur.
NAH?
wanna call BS on this one.
if the alternator is charging the sytem while running like it is supposed to then it stays running when you disconnect the battery or batteries if it dies then the alternator has no output and the batteries are doing the job until they are out of strenght to power the vehicle? unti they are charged again. at this point a charger over several hours,a booster after the alternator is replaced to get it running so the alternator can charge it.
a precious little computer is sensiitive but if it loses power it will stop everything and it will only see voltage through the PCM if equipped that is powered buy the alternator.
the alternator only charges the batteries for the
starting.
BUT powers everything while your driving.
simple troubleshooting trick that wont muck nothing up?
not much to mess up if you mind your your P's and Q's
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