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Old 11-06-2021, 05:18 PM   #1
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Angry Remove front drum with split rim - lugs spin???

EDIT: SOLVED - see thread comment.

I went to change my front brake shoes and I have the widowmaker spoke split rims.


The outer lugs remove the wheel, though the spokes are still attached to the drum. The lugs on the drum spin when I try to loosen them.


I found one post on here about this from 2013 and the guy just send something like "never mind I got it" without posting his solution.


I also tried searching the web and can't find anything on this.


Does anyone know how to get the drum off?


It's a 1981 Bluebird on a GMC B6000 drive train. I did have the bearings done by someone when I first got this a year and a half ago, but don't remember how he got the drums off.


Thanks!

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Old 11-06-2021, 05:38 PM   #2
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Were multiple threads needed for this issue?
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Old 11-06-2021, 05:50 PM   #3
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No - the other thread did not detail anything and was not exact issue from 2013. So I went into detail here.
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Old 11-06-2021, 06:09 PM   #4
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i think you just need a small sledgehammer?
remove the nuts and tap around on it to break the dust dirt lose and you should be able to pull it off just like an old school brake drum.
i cant remember if there is a slack adjuster in there that needs to be backed off or if you need to get the air pressure off of it?
wait for others to chime in because i have worked on to much newer stuff since i touched my 86 b700
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Old 11-06-2021, 06:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223 View Post
i think you just need a small sledgehammer?
remove the nuts and tap around on it to break the dust dirt lose and you should be able to pull it off just like an old school brake drum.

The problem is, the inner studs that attach the spokes to the hub just spin when I go to take them off.


Thinking there must be something I am missing here!
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Old 11-06-2021, 07:14 PM   #6
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UPDATE - SOLVED


For anyone who ever has this question - the inner studs do not need to be taken off (they come off with the drum). The drum and spoke assembly all comes off by removing the center spindle nut.


Thanks Phil at AwesomePossum.app
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Old 11-06-2021, 07:33 PM   #7
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those are not studs holding the spokes to the drum they are bolts you need to remove the bearing and take the spokes and drum off together so you can hold a wrench on the head of the bolt
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Old 11-06-2021, 07:37 PM   #8
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the spokes do not make it a widowmaker and i doubt you have split rims. most everything had converted to tubeless by 81. if your tire size ends with 22.5 its not a split rim.. if it ends wit 20 it is a split rim but i doubt you have that. by the way spoke wheels are stronger than disk (budd)
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Old 11-06-2021, 08:22 PM   #9
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Sounds like Dayton wheels.
They quit using widowmakers a long time ago.
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Old 11-06-2021, 08:26 PM   #10
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Mmoore

A widowmaker rim is NOT a spoked rim. It is a rim made by Firestone in the 1950ís. My 1954 ford-Wayne has widowmakers.

Spoked wheels, hubless wheels, also known as Dayton wheels, the older versions had inner liners, inner tubes, and tires. Dayton wheels could have two or three pieces.

I have seen buses with tube type dayton rims into the middle 1990ís. Tube type and tubeless Dayton rims were available as new for several years of overlap.

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Old 11-06-2021, 08:54 PM   #11
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the most common split rim is a retainer ring rim. while its possible for that retainer piece to not be set correctly while installing the tire, retainer ring rims are ty[pically very safe.. the more pressure the tire has, the tendency to push that retainer in harder so it wont dislodge.. taking them off and on the spoke hub is safe. (they made disc (budd / hub pilot) wheels also as retainer ring.. my 1978 superior has those..



my DEV bus has dayton wheels which are 22.5" tubeless and use standard size modern tires..



a couple advantages to dayton wheels are that the rim / tire is lighter to handle than a disc wheel / tire.. and typically the lugs get tightened down to 250-275 ft lbs of torque instead of 450 for a stud pilot / hub pilot wheel.. making torquing easier..



before you put that drum back on be sure to retorque those studs that you spun loose when trying to remove the spoke. follow torque spec.. you want those bolts to be evenly torqued so you have smooth braking.



when you put your drum back on be sure to follow the procedure for tightening that spindle nut with the right preload on that bearing..



-Christopher
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Old 11-06-2021, 11:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoore6856 View Post
the spokes do not make it a widowmaker and i doubt you have split rims. most everything had converted to tubeless by 81. if your tire size ends with 22.5 its not a split rim.. if it ends wit 20 it is a split rim but i doubt you have that. by the way spoke wheels are stronger than disk (budd)

Yeah, these are split with tubes. 20s up front and I actually changed out the rear 20" split rims to tubeless 22.5 Daytons when I put new tires on back and they alerted me then that they were widowmakers when I changed them. Up front It does have the split ring on it along with a tube tire, which the front tires were new, so I did not change them at the time.

It's dark out now and I don't have any clear pictures of the rims handy.



Not sure why this 81 had the split rims on it though...
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Old 11-06-2021, 11:12 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
when you put your drum back on be sure to follow the procedure for tightening that spindle nut with the right preload on that bearing..

Where do I find the info on how to do the right preload on that bearing?


THANK YOU!
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Old 11-07-2021, 12:29 AM   #14
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chevrolet repair manual

I would buy one for a c50, c60 c70 off ebay or one of the online book stores that sell older repair/service manuals.

Then you will have other chassis service information also.

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Old 11-07-2021, 12:36 AM   #15
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Keep in mind, please, that there are split rims and split rings. People confuse and conflate the two all the time. Split rims are actually pretty rare now. Split rings are not nearly as dangerous and there are still lots of shops which will work on split ring wheels. Not so much with split rims. We have split ring wheels on several vintage buses...although I do convert them to modern rims (and commonly available tire sizes) as I can.
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Old 11-07-2021, 06:02 AM   #16
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Old 11-07-2021, 07:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossvtaylor View Post
Keep in mind, please, that there are split rims and split rings. People confuse and conflate the two all the time. Split rims are actually pretty rare now. Split rings are not nearly as dangerous and there are still lots of shops which will work on split ring wheels. Not so much with split rims. We have split ring wheels on several vintage buses...although I do convert them to modern rims (and commonly available tire sizes) as I can.



THIS.. retainer rings.. and they were available much longer than the old 3 piece rims people speak of,. my 1990 came with retainer ring tube type rims factory.. (they had been swapped to 22.5 before I bought the bus)..


my 1978 Superior came with them also.. I have converted 4 of them so far to modern 22.5's, but since it has new tires on the front ill wait to convert those as it would be a waste to get rid of those tires..



as for your bearing and hub nuts.. Magnakansas has it right.. look up a chevy /. GMC C50,C60,C70 truck manual.. those same axles were used on many a dump truck..


youll also need to grease pack that bearing as well unless thats an oil bath hub.. (when you took it apart did oil run out or was it packed full of grease).. I also usually inspect the seal that runs on the spindle at the back of the drum for signs of grease / oil leakage.. if its starting to leak, good idea to change the seal while its apart.



with an oil bath hub theres typically a plastic window in the front of the cover that goes on after you tighten the spindle nut.. most often the full-line is the bottom of that window when the vehicle is on level ground.



before reassembling definitely clean up all the parts.. start fresh and cleasn since its apart.



-Christopher
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Old 11-07-2021, 07:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
THIS.. retainer rings.. and they were available much longer than the old 3 piece rims people speak of,. my 1990 came with retainer ring tube type rims factory.. (they had been swapped to 22.5 before I bought the bus)..


my 1978 Superior came with them also.. I have converted 4 of them so far to modern 22.5's, but since it has new tires on the front ill wait to convert those as it would be a waste to get rid of those tires..



as for your bearing and hub nuts.. Magnakansas has it right.. look up a chevy /. GMC C50,C60,C70 truck manual.. those same axles were used on many a dump truck..


youll also need to grease pack that bearing as well unless thats an oil bath hub.. (when you took it apart did oil run out or was it packed full of grease).. I also usually inspect the seal that runs on the spindle at the back of the drum for signs of grease / oil leakage.. if its starting to leak, good idea to change the seal while its apart.



with an oil bath hub theres typically a plastic window in the front of the cover that goes on after you tighten the spindle nut.. most often the full-line is the bottom of that window when the vehicle is on level ground.



before reassembling definitely clean up all the parts.. start fresh and cleasn since its apart.



-Christopher
my 85 had 20's with tubes and the retainer rings. Other than crappy tire selection they were alright. My 92 Ward had tubeless Dayton 22.5's.
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Old 11-17-2021, 04:26 PM   #19
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They should not have any preload .
If you torque the bearing retainer nut to about 100 ft lbs , then back off a quarter to a third of a revolution install locknut and using a dial indicator check for some bearing clearance . Dial indicator should show around .005 less is ok but 0 is not .
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Old 11-17-2021, 09:01 PM   #20
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Splits to Dayton 22.5

Where were you able to find 22.5” 6 bolt Dayton’s? I assume if you had 20” splits they were 6 bolts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertkuntz View Post
Yeah, these are split with tubes. 20s up front and I actually changed out the rear 20" split rims to tubeless 22.5 Daytons when I put new tires on back and they alerted me then that they were widowmakers when I changed them. Up front It does have the split ring on it along with a tube tire, which the front tires were new, so I did not change them at the time.

It's dark out now and I don't have any clear pictures of the rims handy.



Not sure why this 81 had the split rims on it though...
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