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Old 09-24-2018, 07:19 AM   #21
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I'm siding with ronnie on this one. My experience correlates with what the detroit instructor told me, which is that multi grade oils are okay so long as they meet the ash and zinc requirements.

Looking for the cf2 requirement is also unnecessary considering that is an outdated spec and anything meeting current specs will far exceed it.

What most of you are forgetting is that these engines were developed at a time when multigrade oils weren't standard and synthetic oils were uncommon.

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Old 09-25-2018, 10:47 PM   #22
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It's your engine, do what you want, but half a century of accumulated wisdom should not be scoffed at. Also, what do the boating folk use in their 92s and 71s? (Hint - it's not multiweight.) I'll keep using the correct oil in mine, and get it analyzed every year or two to keep an eye on things; I don't like surprises.

Even the bible tells you to use straight 40-weight. In the Old Testament's Book Of Lubricants, Chapter 2 Verse 3, Abraham says "Oh god, I have sinned verily in thy sight, my chariot of crowns hath been anointed with the unction of diverse fortitudes, and it now ceaseth to work without the exhuming of smoke and most foul odors and the making of discordant sounds". And then god sayeth "Abraham, thou art a silly twat, thou hast hastened thy chariot's demise by your ungodly stupidity and ignorance, so thou shall apease me by praying five times a day and saying that only straight unction of 40 virgins is blessed by me for thy chariot, and anything else is the devil's handiwork. If thou persisteth in using the devil's multitudinous unction in thy chariot, thou shalt be turned into a pillar of sulfated ash".

Look it up if you don't believe me.

Good luck, John
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Old 09-26-2018, 06:58 AM   #23
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straight from the "bible"
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:46 AM   #24
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Sorry, just because Detroit said in 1979 that 15W/40 was OK does not mean it's OK! All subsequent information from Detroit says to not use multi-weight. Detroit sometimes countermands their original instructions or advice as new information becomes available to render it obsolete or inaccurate. Look at what they said about oil change intervals on the early 92s, or what they said about running slobber tubes into the crankcase when the EPA started to get on them - both of those "official" Detroit instructions were very soon replaced by corrected ones. More to the point, if everybody with 2-stroke Detroits is telling you one thing, why do you assume that you know better? BCM and the Hatteras/trawler forums will quickly dispel any such foolish notions! As I've said before, it's your engine, trash it if you want, no skin off my nose, but it's a waste of a good engine if you do. Much though I like 2-stroke diesels (and not only Detroits), I'm the first to admit they're not for everyone. Most folk would be better served with some boring generic modern diesel engine, just like most car drivers in this country are best served by dull unimaginative anodyne yawnmobiles like a Camry that require minimal involvement and knowledge for their use.

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Old 09-26-2018, 10:19 AM   #25
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You guys are arguing over the number of teeth in a horse's mouth when you could just ask the horse. Call 'em up and ask!



Also, John, there really are good things to be said about transportation appliances that just work. Most of us named our first few cars, then moved on to reliable ones. Not calling you out here; there's room for both chocolate and vanilla in this great world. Just pointing out that there's no moral superiority to be had in buying and operating old stuff just for the cool factor.



Just running, day after day, no complaints, no drama, is what we all pray for the day we pick up our first bus.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:03 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Iceni John View Post
It's your engine, do what you want, but half a century of accumulated wisdom should not be scoffed at. Also, what do the boating folk use in their 92s and 71s? (Hint - it's not multiweight.) I'll keep using the correct oil in mine, and get it analyzed every year or two to keep an eye on things; I don't like surprises.
Different operating conditions entirely. Also holds true for gen set usage and ag equipment. Guess what? Those are all considered off highway, where multiweight oils wouldn't be much of an advantage. What we're talking about here is on highway, where detroit says that multi weight oils are okay.

Straight 40 weight is fine, as long as you follow the temp guidelines. I'm not saying to not use it. That's what they originally used. It works fine. What I am saying, is that multi weight oils are okay as long as it meets or exceeds the ash and zinc requirements. And multiweight oils start 10x easier in the cold, and are much more commonly available.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:11 AM   #27
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John,

Very simply I am stateing what the manual says. Also my many years of experiance shows this to be ok too. As for info being changed yes my older manual says straight 40w and the newer one says 15w40 as the recommended oil.

Either one is ok.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:49 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
John,

Very simply I am stateing what the manual says. Also my many years of experiance shows this to be ok too. As for info being changed yes my older manual says straight 40w and the newer one says 15w40 as the recommended oil.

Either one is ok.

hey ronnie, slightly off the topic question but I see in your avatar you have an IH-392, what oil are you running in that? ive built a lot of hotrods over the years but this is really the first "truck engine" ive had.. do you run regular 10W-40 in it or rotella like in a diesel?



as for the 2 stroke detroit.. seems pretty simple to me.. as long as the delo-100 oil is available why not just run it... once it becomes completely impossible to get then be concerned about finding a different oil... the fully recommended is available still.. just not at walmart . so you can run that.. at least thats how I would do it..



just like in my old cars with R-12 A/C.. while R-12 was still available I always ran that.. and never bothered to worry about converting uintil it was near impossible to get..





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Old 09-26-2018, 01:57 PM   #29
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The 392 being it has flat tappet cam followers and not a roller cam I use 15w-40 Amsoil, which has a high zinc content. I have had several international v-8's and they have done well with it. The older Rotella is also good. The newest I have not looked up the specs for yet. So not sure if it has enough zinc.

I am not saying anything against the delo-100, by all means use it if you have it. Just wanted to show DD has in fact stated other oils can be used as well. If anyone has any info that supercedes the info I posted by all means I am all ears.

I use a hydro carbon based r-12 replacement. There is a good bit of controversy on that but it does work well.
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Old 09-26-2018, 04:47 PM   #30
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There's a rule somewhere on the internet that all mechanical conversations eventually become oil threads.

I really appreciate the input, guys. Even (or especially) since there's disagreement. Once the engine is started I have a handful of other systems to sort out as well before getting her on the road home. Air, brakes, and enough electrical to have taillights and turn signals, at least.

Should be fun.
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:12 PM   #31
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I personally would have a copy of the Detroit mechanics manual in hand before,during,after the start up before the trip home so your trusted mechanic friend can walk you through some of it while checking things out before,during,after start up.
Once on the road your on your own. With a new to you vehicle.
I ain't gonna tell you what type of oil to use but I can tell you the wrong or inadequate type will not last long.
I can give one of my real life examples of improper fluid in a 77 ford tranny where the dipstick that wasn't original to the tranny was stamped for a different fluid than what it needed and after fluid filter change it disintegrated inside. And what the rebuild shop told me.
Tried to make a long story short?
Detroit online has what you need with the updates
Older stuff we can only go buy word of mouth of the old school mechanics that know them.
I can guarantee that there is not a single big box parts store around me that can find the parts or even know what I want for my oldish stuff unless I know the part number for them when I walk in the door.
In my area the older NAPA stores still stock and carry some medium duty/heavy duty stuff but not the bigger fancy box NAPA.
Maybe a hunnings truck supply? I think they're nationwide?
Good luck
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Old 09-26-2018, 08:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Iceni John View Post
...

Even the bible tells you to use straight 40-weight. In the Old Testament's Book Of Lubricants, Chapter 2 Verse 3, Abraham says "Oh god, I have sinned verily in thy sight, my chariot of crowns hath been anointed with the unction of diverse fortitudes, and it now ceaseth to work without the exhuming of smoke and most foul odors and the making of discordant sounds". And then god sayeth "Abraham, thou art a silly twat, thou hast hastened thy chariot's demise by your ungodly stupidity and ignorance, so thou shall apease me by praying five times a day and saying that only straight unction of 40 virgins is blessed by me for thy chariot, and anything else is the devil's handiwork. If thou persisteth in using the devil's multitudinous unction in thy chariot, thou shalt be turned into a pillar of sulfated ash".

Look it up if you don't believe me.

Good luck, John
Well, that was one brilliant and eloquent way to make little coffee drops appear on my monitor.
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:06 PM   #33
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I didn’t read any other posts.
But!
I own a Detroit diesel from 1979.
Runs like a champ.
Most reliable engine on the road!!!!Click image for larger version

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Old 09-29-2018, 04:06 PM   #34
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I have been running a number of 6-71's and 4-71's for many years on 15w40 rotella without any issues. Even do oil analysis, and that shows no issues.
You may have been lucky. The Detroit research says that those oils are high in ash content and will score the cylinder walls. The many folks on the Facebook Detroit Enthusiast groups with more years of experience than me explicitly warn against Rotella and multi-weights.

Straight-weight oil is available and recommended, so that's what I use.

I've owned a 6-71 and currently have an 8V-92TA. The 8v-92 has 70K original miles on it and doesn't smoke at all. Starts promptly and runs perfectly.

While you are free to run whatever you want, it's bad karma to tell others to run something that has been documented by the manufacturer to damage the engine.
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Old 09-29-2018, 04:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
I'm siding with ronnie on this one. My experience correlates with what the detroit instructor told me, which is that multi grade oils are okay so long as they meet the ash and zinc requirements.

Looking for the cf2 requirement is also unnecessary considering that is an outdated spec and anything meeting current specs will far exceed it.

What most of you are forgetting is that these engines were developed at a time when multigrade oils weren't standard and synthetic oils were uncommon.
Wikipedia has a nice timeline of the history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel
The quick summary is that they were modular, loose tolerance block engines where a little oil leakage was desirable and inconsequential.

The saying is, if a Detroit isn't leaking it's out of oil. They are used in everything from heavy equipment to tanks, on-road to off-road and railroad to ships.

Here is a link to the 50 page manual on Engine Requirements - Lubricating Oil, Fuel, and Filters. Meanwhile, I'll just keep using what I know works.
https://brandon314.files.wordpress.c...quirements.pdf

Section 2.2 states that 52, 71, 92 for all applications with low sulfur fuel require oil type 1 primary and can use 2,3,4.

Section 2.2.1 states that these oils are CF-2 40 Weight or 50 weight oils with no more than 1% sulfated ash.

I really can't find much on 2 cycle use and multi-grade oils.... however, section 3.2 states
"In 15W-40 grade oils, a HT/HS viscosity below 3.7 centipoise (cP) indicates that the oil will not perform as a 40 grade oil at engine operating conditions."

I'm not a petroleum or mechanical engineer. I also can't afford to rebuild my engine because I used the wrong oil. So I just keep pouring SAE 40wt diesel oil in it. It's a bit of a pain to find, but I always have 2 or 3 gallons on my bus.

It's also worth noting that coolant has a lifespan and is very specific to diesel engines. There is a property called anti-cavitation that you need to know about.

Diesels are great engines if you care for them properly.

The old 6-71 bus probably has oil bath filters as well. There is a Facebook group called Vintage Bus Mechanics that is a wealth of knowledge about these old engines in buses.

Good Luck.
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:22 PM   #36
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You may have been lucky. The Detroit research says that those oils are high in ash content and will score the cylinder walls. The many folks on the Facebook Detroit Enthusiast groups with more years of experience than me explicitly warn against Rotella and multi-weights.

Straight-weight oil is available and recommended, so that's what I use.

I've owned a 6-71 and currently have an 8V-92TA. The 8v-92 has 70K original miles on it and doesn't smoke at all. Starts promptly and runs perfectly.

While you are free to run whatever you want, it's bad karma to tell others to run something that has been documented by the manufacturer to damage the engine.


As you can see I posted a picture right out of the manual. If you do not believe it or like that is ok but don't "paint me black" for doing it.
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:47 PM   #37
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As you can see I posted a picture right out of the manual. If you do not believe it or like that is ok but don't "paint me black" for doing it.
You may get away with it.... but it's not recommended. Good luck with it. It's your engine and your money so I'm not going to hold it against you.

MTU Fluid and Lubrication Specifications: 1/2015
Detroit Diesel became MTU.... so this is current manufacturer information.


Section 8.3.1
https://www.mtu-online.com/fileadmin...001061_36E.pdf

Multi-grade 15w-40 is restricted for series 53, 71, and 92- 2 cycle engines.
It appears to be a coolant temperature restriction that converts to 201 degrees.... a temperature your coolant should never be. Although pushing a hill it might happen.

SAE 40 is not restricted.

I went and looked at the Delo 400 and Rotella 15w-40 Product Data Sheets and they meet the API spec and ash content.

Last I checked an overhaul was North of $10K. I don't have that sort of money to play with so I'm going to keep using SAE 40W Delo 100, Delo 400, or Rotella oils.

I like the Rotella multi-weight oils. I run it in my Yanmar generator and I ran it in my Volvo and Kubota Sailboat diesels and in my Cummins 5.9 (Dodge 2500) and Ford F-350 engines. It's just not listed as a preferred oil for my DD 8v-92TA.

I'm also one of those odd-balls that sends my oil in for analysis on all my vehicles. I like knowing what's going on and started doing it when I had my F-350. It's a good way to see if I'm managing my oil change intervals right or pushing them too far. I've been very happy with Blackstone Labs for years.

I'm also a big fan of Kwik-Valves. That's another conversation.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:09 PM   #38
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I will look at that spec. That for posting something real.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:10 PM   #39
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As you can see I posted a picture right out of the manual. If you do not believe it or like that is ok but don't "paint me black" for doing it.
Enough already. I'll paint you black. Stop confusing newcomers who have no real knowledge with which to compare or contrast what is best, and disseminating your opinions disguised as truth. That's an older engine manual and one thing that never stops is the perpetual upgrading and changing of the manuals to reflect new designs, and parts, for the engines based on operational experiences, both good and bad.

Many folks have tried to make you understand that Detroit Diesel themselves made a MISTAKE in initially recommending Delo 400 (straight wt., never multigrade, by the way). They have never to my knowledge ever endorsed multi-grade oils in any 2-stroke series engines.

After a few years and feedback reports from high time engine users in mining, oil fields, marine etc, they found high abrasion showing up around the cylinder intake ports, mostly due to the high ash content, much sooner than ever seen before, shortening the engines life. They issued an updated tech bulletin, which I will attach here, rescinding the use of ANY oil other than a CF2 rated oil or equivalent brand to DELO 100 straight 40 wt, or 50 wt in high temp. environments. Period. End of discussion.

DELO 400 is a synthetic based oil whereas DELO 100 is a mineral based oil.

Apparently it makes a difference in the 2-strokes, at least along with the ash content being higher in the 400. I always encourage the use of DELO 100 only. Even though it's a challenge to find today, it's the correct oil.

Better to be safe than sorry.

2-stroke DD engines are internally pressurized for operational necessity by the roots blower used to scavenge the air from the cylinders. This internal over-pressure tends to drive any oil, whether liquid or vaporous out of any possible paths it can find, loose bolts, gaskets, joints, whatever, the end result being that the engine, ground, back of the bus, etc. are coated with an oil film, or visible leak drips. Hence the old jokes about how 2-strokes must leak or there must be something wrong with it. But these are inconsequential when compared to the deluge that multi-grade oils produce, and smoking to boot.

ALL multi-grade oil products make this much worse and causes excessive leaks and smoking of the engine under normal operating conditions. The condition is called slobbering and I've witnessed first hand the results when (Crowns with 6-71's) were brought in for repair amid fears of major engine problems due to excessive leaks and exhaust smoke. After changing the oil and filters and putting in DELO 100 40 wt., every bit of the leaking and smoking ceased, immediately, within less than 10 miles of driving around locally. That's a fact of life and no amount of wishing for a different outcome will change it. 50 years of experience of working on DD 2-strokes has informed that mechanic shop how to take care of and what to use in the engines.

Of course you're perfectly free, as has been stated already, to use anything you want in your engines, but please don't try to convince us, who really do know better, based on facts and experience, or any of the new guys struggling to get the best information they can to protect their investments, that you are a font of wisdom second to none. Remember the old adage about opinions.

The attachments are from Chevron but are based on what Detroit Diesel promulgated elsewhere. This was apparently around 2002 when the revision came from DD and the problems with high ash, non CF2 rated oils came to light. Multi-grade oils were never recommended for 2-strokes.
Attached Thumbnails
Delo 400_1_1.jpg   Delo 400_2_1.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: txt OIL_information-DELO 100 equivalents.txt (858 Bytes, 2 views)
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:44 PM   #40
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I will look at that spec. That for posting something real.
I think the 2005 DD manual was real as well.

You could be right on multi-weight under the right circumstances. I don't think it's fair play to tell a newcomer that though. I admire your courage and am interested to hear about your long term results. In the meanwhile I'm going to keep using the primary oil viscosity that is recommended by the manufacturer and all of the old guys who made a career out of working on these engines. I'm extremely grateful for the wisdom they share.

The SAFE path is SAE 40 weight 2 cycle diesel approved oil meeting the CF2 specification.

Let's agree to encourage a new Detroit Diesel owner to stick with what's safe.

It's also worth noting that Detroit Diesel engines should not be idled extensively. It's bad for them in the simplest of terms. The vehicle should have a high idle switch. Leave it there when you need to idle. That's a safe place for the engine to hang out for hours.... like when you are parked over night and want the heat/AC or simply don't want to shut down for some reason.

A few other "Welcome to 2 cycle diesel land" notes
- Get CoachNet. It's $180 /yr.
- Get AAA Plus with RV coverage. Make sure they know you have a GM Motorcoach (or whatever it is).
- Learn enough about your engine to pre-qualify the kids who come out to work on it.

Roadside Assistance is good for "one save" per "incident." So if you break down and need a jump that's a save and an incident. If the jump doesn't work and you need a tow you are on your own. Typically you are going to engage them for roadside service (belt snaps you have no spare for some reason), flat tire, need a tow, need a nudge (stuck), need a jump.

It's imperative to disconnect the driveshaft on most buses before flat towing them. Learn your bus!!!! Everything is measured in thousands of dollars for the most part. I.e. Engine is 15K, Transmission is 5K Tires are 3K. Big $$$$ can be spent if you mistreat it. Don't worry, stick and staple motorhomes are not well built and susceptible to the same evils.

You can also "landoll" tow a bus. This is an 18 wheeler tow truck that hauls the whole vehicle up on the bed. This can be ghastly expensive. On my coach a 3 mile tow was $975. CoachNet saved me that day.

A "jump" is going to be a fool in a car with a portable battery jumper. Pick up a couple at Harbor Freight for $60/ea if you think you are going to have that headache. It's much faster to rescue yourself!

Carry a battery charger that can "jump" you with 200A boost. See also Self-Rescue.

Isolate your generator from your engine systems so it's independent and can be started on it's own. See also self-rescue.

Good Sam varies and some folks like them and some folks didn't think they were that good.

Never ever say BUS. Always say Coach, Motorcoach, Super Class A, Motorhome. Sure it looks like a bus.... Air Force One looks like a 747.... and that's where the similarities end.

These engines are old and they aren't taught in school anymore. Roadside mechanics and truck stop jokers may not have seen one and may not know how to work on it. I had that experience when I first bought my coach. Don't waste time/money having a mechanic come out only to tell you he doesn't know but can try. Get an expert out.

I broke down on the way home with mine. Roadside monkey, fuel filters, a tow, more truck stop monkeys and 3 days later... .I finally got an old mechanic who grew up in Mexico. His English was a little spotty but it took him 5 minutes to figure out what was wrong and get me going again with no parts and a suggestion on how to fix it when I got home. #Adventure

I re-engineered the shut-down with standard air cylinders and won't have that issue again. So always confirm that they know how to work on a 6-71 or 8v-92 and that if they get out there and can't there is no charge.
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