2000 International ECM 444 vs 466

[maximillian]

Hello.
I have what I suspect is a failed 2000 444 ECM.
I get a "No 1708" message and have already tested all the fuses, relays and wiring related to the ECM.
When searching for a replacement with the part number 1874747C1 from the suspect ECM, this comes up as a dt466 ECM.
Are these interchangeable? Also, is there a quick bench test that I can do to the ECM off the vehicle?

[cadillackid]

obviously the biggest tests you can do are power and ground TO the ECM on the vehicle.. that means pulling the connectors and verifying you have proper power and ground.. and also that your Power relay fires...



No J1708 accompanied by no Bulb test of the WARN and OIL / WATER lights is usually an indicator the ECM failed to boot.. perhaps just because its missing power.. a blown fuse or fusible link, failed power relay on the firewall, are among things to check before deeming the computer is Dead..



to bench test it you need a way of connecting to several pins on the 'A' connector I believe.. I dont have the pinout in front of me..



the ECM for late 97+ T444E and 98-03 DT466E are the same computer.. you need to have it programmed for your VIN or at least for a similar application before you can use it..

[maximillian]

Hello cadillackid, thanks so much for the response. I'm almost certain the ECM is dead because I can read 12 vdc at the module power connector. I would still like to make sure by "bench powering" the ECM off the vehicle. If I understand this diagram correct, I need to connect 12 vdc GND to pins 1, 2, 23 and 42 and 12 vdc VCC to pins 21, 22 and 41? And then I should see 5 vdc on pin 3 (labeled VREF 5+-.5v on the diagram). Also thank you on the information on the interchangeability of the ECM, I will start looking for a replacement while still testing the ECM that I have.

[cadillackid]

something is missing on this Diagram. where is the BAT+ I think if I remember right it is shown on the 6/9 pin diagnostic connector diagram..



doing this from memory I dont have my onCommand diagrams in front of me on this computer..

when +12 is applied to pin 24 (ignition on), the ECM does a quick self check and then enables pin 25 which essentially powers the whole thing up via the power relay. if that relay fails to engage then the ECM wont boot all the way.



when you say you read 12 volts at the module connector? are you talking that you read it at pin 24 when Key On?

[Power Hungry]

Max,

Give us a shout tomorrow. We can bench the PCM and if it is dead, we have about 2 dozen replacements. I can pull the data from your original and transfer it to a replacement. Just plug it in and go.

Or PM me your number and I can call you back this evening.

Let me know.

[maximillian]

Thanks again.
BAT+ is applied to the ECM on pin 24 (V IGN) when key is turned on (tested with meter and got 12vdc).

This should boot up the ECM and then drive the Module Power Relay (MPR) low therefore activating the relay.

On the left side of the relay I have BAT+ (12vdc) when key on (As per this and other diagrams). But pin 25 (MPR ) is never driven low and so the MPR does not get activated.

If I remove the relay and jump the upper part of the relay, as if the relay was active, then I can get 12 volts at pins 21, 22 and 41, but still get "No 1708".

I tested the relay off vehicle and it works, so the relay is not the problem.

This picture is from a diagram of the pins with notes on each pin from pin 21 to 25.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

Max,

Give us a shout tomorrow. We can bench the PCM and if it is dead, we have about 2 dozen replacements. I can pull the data from your original and transfer it to a replacement. Just plug it in and go.

Or PM me your number and I can call you back this evening.

Let me know.

Now if I could send you my ECU and have you open 6th gear, that would be something. Can you do that?

[maximillian]

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

Max,

Give us a shout tomorrow. We can bench the PCM and if it is dead, we have about 2 dozen replacements. I can pull the data from your original and transfer it to a replacement. Just plug it in and go.

Or PM me your number and I can call you back this evening.

Let me know.

Hello Bill, Thanks, I will PM some info tomorrow.

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Now if I could send you my ECU and have you open 6th gear, that would be something. Can you do that?

Unfortunately, the 6th gear control is in the Allison TCM which is something I cannot yet modify. We are looking at it, though.

[cadillackid]

Marc, from what im finding is that the guys who are unlocking 6th gear are doing what OI have done a few times which is essentially find a TCM CIN (Calibration ID Number) for a very similar vehicle and then copy it into another TCM.. and it works..



I did it for a few bluebirds that were 8.3's and similar rear gears and same engine / trans similar GVWR in their busses..



one was sold as a church bus and had all 6 gears from the factory.. i downlaoded its TCM program and have loaded it into 2 other Bluebirds that were school busses and the results have been perfect thus far for those guys..



thats by far the easiest way to do it.. but for the $250 or such that the guys unlocking 6th aroiund here charge its really a bargain unless you want to go through all the BS and paperwork of trying to get the bus manufacturer to do it... I simply got lucky in running across someone willing to let me download the data out of their bus (I did fix their A/C so that mightve had something to do with it).

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Marc, from what im finding is that the guys who are unlocking 6th gear are doing what OI have done a few times which is essentially find a TCM CIN (Calibration ID Number) for a very similar vehicle and then copy it into another TCM.. and it works..



I did it for a few bluebirds that were 8.3's and similar rear gears and same engine / trans similar GVWR in their busses..



one was sold as a church bus and had all 6 gears from the factory.. i downlaoded its TCM program and have loaded it into 2 other Bluebirds that were school busses and the results have been perfect thus far for those guys..



thats by far the easiest way to do it.. but for the $250 or such that the guys unlocking 6th aroiund here charge its really a bargain unless you want to go through all the BS and paperwork of trying to get the bus manufacturer to do it... I simply got lucky in running across someone willing to let me download the data out of their bus (I did fix their A/C so that mightve had something to do with it).

Chris,

Quit messing around and get down here sometime soon. If we can log the process, I can reverse engineer it and include it in the Orion software down the road.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Marc, from what im finding is that the guys who are unlocking 6th gear are doing what OI have done a few times which is essentially find a TCM CIN (Calibration ID Number) for a very similar vehicle and then copy it into another TCM.. and it works..



I did it for a few bluebirds that were 8.3's and similar rear gears and same engine / trans similar GVWR in their busses..



one was sold as a church bus and had all 6 gears from the factory.. i downlaoded its TCM program and have loaded it into 2 other Bluebirds that were school busses and the results have been perfect thus far for those guys..



thats by far the easiest way to do it.. but for the $250 or such that the guys unlocking 6th aroiund here charge its really a bargain unless you want to go through all the BS and paperwork of trying to get the bus manufacturer to do it... I simply got lucky in running across someone willing to let me download the data out of their bus (I did fix their A/C so that mightve had something to do with it).

So where do I find " TCM CIN (Calibration ID Number) for a very similar vehicle"?
Anyone have a 99 Genesis AmTran DT466E bus with 6th unlocked?

[cadillackid]

pretty much thats what I did.. all 3 busses (the source bus) and the 2 I have dropped the program in were 84 passenger RE 8.3 cummins with MD3060 and I think they all had 5.13 gears as well.. the "unoffocial" allison DOC version I have has both 3rd gen and 4th gen utility files with it so I just flashed away..



just for safety I downloaded the 5 speed programs out of the 2 busses as well. just so I could flash them back if something went Bling-O-Blam. I then reset the Adapts so its necessary to do the relearn procedure again which is you start out and floor it let the allison shift from 1-4 without ever lifting the throttle.. then you stop.. and do it again.. 4 times is what I was told. but right off when we turned the bus on it came up with a big fat 6 instead of a 5.



now on 3rd gen stuff its possible I might be able to find an EFIlive tuneable calibration but I dont own a 3rd gen (pre 06) bus with MD3060 to play on.

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

now on 3rd gen stuff its possible I might be able to find an EFIlive tuneable calibration but I dont own a 3rd gen (pre 06) bus with MD3060 to play on.

I have a 3rd gen (ECM-2) with a 3060 PTS and 6th gear unlocked.

[cadillackid]

oops sorry i mean 3rd gen Allison..



with allison everyone kind of picked up on the electronics as the generation..



First gen (ive never ever seen.. no idea if it ever existed)


Second Gen (aka WTEC-II) was used in the first world-series (MD3000) up through mid 98. considered completely obsolete now..they were J1708 comms and used a propreitary hardware scan tool to work on..



Third Gen(aka WTEC-III) uses J1939 comms and came out in mid 98.. originally it was used on the B-series(Bus series transmissions built for busses.. pretty much a 3000 series) and the world (3000) and also HD 4000 series that came out around then.. 3rd gen was in the 1000/2000 when it arrived in mid year 2000.. 3rd gen ran up through model yeaer 2005


Fourth Gen - introduced with the updated 1000/2000 series so they could have 6th gear. started in 2006 and noted was the change to a single connector 80 pin TCM.. all of the allison transmissions in production at the time started using 4th gen controls by 07 (from what ive seen). these are the most widely used controls by aftermarket builders as many aftermarket Tuning tools will tune the TCMs.. even the Medium duty (J1939) units.. and also the GM TCMs.. the introduction of 2 Databus ports on these TCMs became a tuner's dream.. CAN-1 is set up to talk to the vehicle ECM using the protocol for that vehicle.. (J1939 or GMLAN).. and CAN-2 is almost always set up as J1850 or OBD-II so that tuners like HPtuners, EFIlive etc can talk to a TCM while it is in operation in the vehicle..


Fifth Gen controls came out between 10-12 over the whole line of transmissions are are pretty much the current standard.. allison is making life more difficult for the aftermarket with the introduction of protected parameters and more live online software for programming.. these controls also are a true SEM or Shift-Energy-Management.. (fuelsense). when looking at somne of the transmissions that rate out with super high torque and horsepower numbers,, they are expecting the engine to de-rate during the shifts to be able to handle those numbers.. ha!! truth in advertising? not so much when a transmission says it can handle a 500 HP / 1250 ft lb motor.. of course it can if you essentially let off every shift..



im not a 5th gen allison fan.. i dont like the way they shift at all/



I run 4th gen in my 1000. (A41 and A51 TCMs i swap back and forth) the A41 is the one ive run the most as I can tune it down to the shift points.. the A51 i can adjust a few pieces on but not nearly the same..



im guessing your DT466 is a 4th gen (single connector) TCM?

[Power Hungry]

I'll double check in the AM when it's light out.