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10-10-2024, 06:29 PM
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#1
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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2001 DT-466e Not Starting (video)
My bus won’t start. It has been parked for about 2 weeks, and drove without issue prior to that.
Video here with audio: https://youtu.be/7-4VY9eSgAc?feature=shared
I thought the batteries were dead, so I replaced them.
That didn’t solve it, so I cleaned the battery connections and cable connections at the batteries.
That didn’t solve it, so I cleaned the connections at the starter.
It sounds better now than when I started (video is what it sounds like now). But still won’t start.
Any ideas?
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10-10-2024, 06:54 PM
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#2
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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Check your engine block grounds to frame and battery grounds to frame is my first start with what you have done. I say that as your volt gauge is low.
Then check your starter power cable that comes from the battery. International likes to use that as a power distribution point.
Pay close attention to the crimp connectors on the cable at either end but more so at the starter. Don't be scared about giving each cable a little tug to check for tightness or a corroded power cable end/lug.
Here, added a picture. Side note. You will likely have a ground to your starter too. My rig is a t444 but you can see the + cable with all the feeds off it. I cleaned mine up 2 years ago as someone stab tested the wires through the insulation and a number of wires were corroded. Looks like I need to clean up my starter post again and apply some electrical protection to stop the rusting.
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10-10-2024, 07:44 PM
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#3
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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My starter has a similar branching off of wires from it. I removed, cleaned, and checked the crimps on all the cables. I also did the same at what I think is the engine block ground, but I’m not totally sure. I attached a picture of it. It’s the only place I see the cables connected to any type of ground.
I don’t see any battery to ground. I traced the cables from the battery and none go to the frame other than these two cables in the photo attached. The black one goes to the starter. The white one I haven’t found the other end yet.
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10-10-2024, 07:59 PM
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#4
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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So that looks like all your ground cables at the end of your starter. Those wires highlighted are engine grounds. There is different ways of grounding a chassis.
Here is another picture of mine. Notice the grounds at the end of my starter. Further up (in the picture further to the left or tilt your head to the left) are my power cables on the starter solenoid. Look further up on your half way in on the starter.
Remember. Disconnect your batteries when servicing your starter cables.
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10-10-2024, 08:07 PM
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#5
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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Here is another picture of my spare starter I have. The post on top that I have my finger on is the power supply. Make sure those are good.
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10-10-2024, 08:08 PM
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#6
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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This one is ground.
I rotated my phone this time.
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10-10-2024, 08:09 PM
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#7
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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My positives are all connected to the starter nearby. I’ve included a picture of all the connections, both positive and negative (sorry, hard to get a good angle under the engine). I’ve already cleaned all of them once, but I’m working on cleaning and checking them again right now. I also found another big cable that runs to the frame from that starter connection, so I’m cleaning up the other end of that as well.
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10-10-2024, 08:37 PM
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#8
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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Alright. Yes. You got those correct.
Now that you serviced your cables, you are good for a long time.
Now you can check all your voltages with a multi meter. If you have 13 volts at your batteries, your should have 13 volts at your starter. Use engine block as ground and check your voltage on power cable at starter. This is standing voltage with no load. It should be the same.
If that is good. Turn your ignition on with your lights. Now check your battery voltage. It may drop a little.....let's say 12.8 volts. Then check at your starter. It could be 12.7 volts. Then move into your bus and check a spot in your fuse box. It may be 12.7 again. You might always be down .1 or .2 volts at different points compared to your battery voltage. What your looking for is an anomaly like 11.2 or 10.2 volts. That will tell you that you have a poor connection somewhere. General rule of thumb. You do not want to exceed .1 voltage drop after each connection.
A poor connection will have lower voltage 2-3-4 volts or more under load while standing voltage will not show it. Good connection you will have a good consistent voltage readings while under load.
Side note, if I was at work I would have gone straight to load testing your starter after a visual inspection of your cables but I know you likely don't have an AVR tester.
The voltages I say here are just examples.
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10-10-2024, 09:01 PM
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#9
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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Ok, cool. I just finished a thorough cleaning of all the negative cables and post at the starter.
Sun is going down so I’m going to quit for the night. But I’ll do another thorough cleaning of the positive cables, then check voltage tomorrow.
Thanks!
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10-11-2024, 08:04 AM
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#10
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,703
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 29
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My ground to chassis is not off of my starter like his is.
I re-wired my whole setup to where I have the battery, with 1x 2AWG wire coming off of the negative terminal to my battery disconnect. This way I control all grounding and can shut it off.
From the disconnect I installed, I have 2x 2AWG wires. one going straight to chassis there and the other going to the starter. In your example your chassis ground is coming off of your starter so that's the difference as mine is direct from battery negative terminal to chassis.
I'm also not happy with the size gauge you're using for the chassis ground. It's arguably the most important ground to have and you should use a much larger sized wire for that and would change it personally if I saw that on my Bus as potentially all devices in your bus that ground out through your body will ground out through that one wire.
If you want to fix this, leave the ground wire from battery to your starter, that one is good. Remove the ground wire from starter to chassis completely. Then install a 2AWG cable from the negative of the battery straight to the chassis. Drill a new hole with heavy duty bolt and mount it to the C Channel. And while you do that it's now easier to add a battery disconnect as well somewhere between those negatives to the starter and chassis.
None of what I said may fix your issue (Unless the gauge being too small is an issue for your chassis ground) but Just an observation I saw from your pictures and I want people to have a cleaner setup.
Clean wiring setups help you diagnose issues easier when there's problems.
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10-11-2024, 05:13 PM
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#11
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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I have 12v at the batteries, battery disconnects, starter, and frame where it’s grounded. I’m not finding any places where the voltage drops.
Is there any chance my starter is bad based on the audio in the earlier video? My starter has occasionally made an awful screeching sound in the past when I try to crank. Only happens sometimes, but it’s been happening for years.
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10-11-2024, 05:27 PM
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#12
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeb2
I have 12v at the batteries, battery disconnects, starter, and frame where it’s grounded. I’m not finding any places where the voltage drops.
Is there any chance my starter is bad based on the audio in the earlier video? My starter has occasionally made an awful screeching sound in the past when I try to crank. Only happens sometimes, but it’s been happening for years.
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Absolutely possible the starter could be failing. That is why I said in an earlier post if I had your rig in my shop I would install and AVR and perform a cranking draw test to confirm it.
What we have been trying to walk though is making sure the connections are clean and good. That is free anyway. Just your time.
There really is only so much that comes to mind listening to your video.
Conclusion. New batteries, all wiring is good from battery to starter to the best of your ability. My next step would be a draw test unless I'm not thinking of something that I missed.
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10-11-2024, 07:35 PM
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#13
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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I have a mobile mechanic coming out Tuesday to take a look at it and do a test.
Question: if the starter needs to be replaced, how hard is that to do myself? I can see all the cables and wires connected to it, and I can see some bolts holding it in place. But I’m not sure if there’s more to it than that. If it’s just that, I can do that myself pretty easily I would think.
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10-11-2024, 08:39 PM
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#14
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeb2
I have a mobile mechanic coming out Tuesday to take a look at it and do a test.
Question: if the starter needs to be replaced, how hard is that to do myself? I can see all the cables and wires connected to it, and I can see some bolts holding it in place. But I’m not sure if there’s more to it than that. If it’s just that, I can do that myself pretty easily I would think.
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That's pretty much all it takes. Disconnect batteries. Remove all your ground wires. I zip tie them together and push to the side. Remove your power wires. Remove your starter bolts and swap in and out the starter. Just make sure your wiring is installed in the right place and don't forget one. Last thing you want to do is burn down the bus.
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10-11-2024, 08:40 PM
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#15
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 662
Coachwork: Busless for now
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Just don't drop it on your face when it comes out. I did that once with a Mustang starter. I was already ugly so no big deal, but I imagine a diesel starter is a bit heavier than a Ford 302 starter.
Seriously, if you label all the cables and smaller wires, it's a simple job.
Make sure to disconnect the negative cable from the battery before touching anything underneath with a wrench!!
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10-11-2024, 08:41 PM
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#16
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Skoolie
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Full-Timers
Posts: 203
Year: 2001
Coachwork: International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT-466e, AT-545
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Sweet. Sounds good. We’ll see what the test says on Tuesday.
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10-11-2024, 08:42 PM
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#17
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 662
Coachwork: Busless for now
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Omnibot types faster than I do, the young whipper-snapper.
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10-11-2024, 10:15 PM
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#18
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,703
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 29
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Has anyone suggested just jumping with a screwdriver yet? While in key on position to see if it tries to crank?
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10-11-2024, 10:19 PM
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#19
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 636
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
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I hate telling people to do that unless I'm doing it myself. I don't want his last post to say "I'll be right back"
Couldn't live with myself.
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10-11-2024, 10:33 PM
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#20
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 662
Coachwork: Busless for now
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Here, hold my beer and watch this.
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