Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-14-2024, 05:46 PM   #1
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2024
Posts: 4
2006 CE200 losing power

Hey all,

I have a 2006 international ce200 with the vt365 motor that has been converted to full skoolie. Bus has 217,000km. It generally runs flawlessly, but every once in while when pulling a hill, the engine light will light up and some heavy black smoke will come out of the tailpipe and it loses power. It doesn't do it on every hill, just randomly. I've noticed it only seems to do it when the motor hits around 204f for temperature. I have an onboard scan gauge that i can clear the code on the fly. As soon as i clear the code, the bus runs back to normal. I've put in a new egr valve and boost sensor recently which hasn't changed anything.

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas of what to look for. Does it have anything to do with temperature?

I have some codes off the scan gauge but can't seem to find any reference material online that shows what they are for.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Nick

bicknack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2024, 08:26 PM   #2
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,914
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
thre heavy black smoke is an indication that the VGT (variable turbo) actuator is not doing what its suppodsed to do so you get very little boost and probably high EGT.. I believe the 365 actually measures its EGT and will de-rate if its too high...


you really need to read the codes.. I would do it through the LCD display on the dashboard ..ive not had good luck with scangauge ion any vehicle giving useable codes..
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2024, 08:58 PM   #3
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
If I recall the vt365 did not come with a EGT for the ECM. That was on the maxforce7, could be wrong, just don't ever recall one.

However yes, the VGT could be hanging up but I think one of his sensors are going south on the air side. Baro, boost and EBP need to be within .5 psi of each other KOEO (I think) otherwise dumb stuff happens. ECM will incorrectly command the VGT.

We need codes.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 07:17 AM   #4
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,914
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnibot2000 View Post
If I recall the vt365 did not come with a EGT for the ECM. That was on the maxforce7, could be wrong, just don't ever recall one.

However yes, the VGT could be hanging up but I think one of his sensors are going south on the air side. Baro, boost and EBP need to be within .5 psi of each other KOEO (I think) otherwise dumb stuff happens. ECM will incorrectly command the VGT.

We need codes.

you are right becasuse of the DPF they needed EGT.. , there was something that got added on the VT that I cant remember, maybe it was a backpressure sensor for the VGT..
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 08:00 AM   #5
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
I thought so. Was questioning myself.

You know this but this is for others.

Barometric sensor is straight forward, it knows what atmosphere pressure is.

MAP is for Manifold absolute pressure. ECM will see the map sensor KOEO at atmosphere psi. It compares it to the barometric reading and boost is calculated above atmosphere pressure. Example atmosphere 14 psi, manifold pressure is 24. Engine boosting is 10 psi.

EBP, believe taken from left side exhaust manifold. That's checking for back pressure on the turbo as the vanes open and close. Again uses base line of atmosphere pressure. 14psi atmosphere, if reading is 20 psi, you have 6 psi back pressure.

To my knowledge. EBP reading is what the ECM needs to controle turbo vanes. MAP sensor tells ECM what the turbo is doing. Baro sensor is used for baseline. All 3 work in tandem, if one goes out the engine will go into "limp".

Over boost will defuel.

High back pressure will adjust accordingly impacting boost levels.

A faulty Baro sensor usually shows at certain altitudes. Example would be, engine runs great. Climb same hill to a certain altitude and then runs poor. Clear code when out of that altitude and runs good again.

Generally first steps, make sure the nipple in intake manifold for the line to map sensor is clear. Next step, make sure you have no restrictions in the pipe that the exhaust back pressure sensor is threaded into. They need to breath unrestricted.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 08:51 AM   #6
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,752
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
ebp was on 6.0's and vt365's.

There is something on the vt365 that's not on the ford units. Possibly a dedicated baro sensor? I've never seen either have a pyro that wasn't aftermarket.

Regardless, stop clearing the codes as that's your telltale to what's wrong. Maybe give what you have to us and we'll see if we can decipher it.

FWIW, what you're saying sounds a lot like the temp delta between eot and ect is being exceeded. However, most of the time when the derate occurs, I don't think smoke has ever accompanied it. When was the last time the air filter was inspected or changed?

Regardless, get us the codes......
__________________
My build: The Silver Bullet https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/p...llet-9266.html
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 09:19 AM   #7
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
ebp was on 6.0's and vt365's.

There is something on the vt465 that's not on the ford units. Possibly a dedicated baro sensor? I've never seen either have a pyro that wasn't aftermarket.

Regardless, stop clearing the codes as that's your telltale to what's wrong. Maybe give what you have to us and we'll see if we can decipher it.

FWIW, what you're saying sounds a lot like the temp delta between eot and ect is being exceeded. However, most of the time when the derate occurs, I don't think smoke has ever accompanied it. When was the last time the air filter was inspected or changed?

Regardless, get us the codes......
I'm pretty sure the vt365 has a baro sensor. Ford 6.0 powerstroke does have a baro sensor. Found in cab, behind fuse cover on metal brace.

If my memory is correct. 7.3 powerstroke was built into the ecm 99 till end of production. OBS 7.3 was under dash and not built into the ecm.

You hit a good point with oil temps but I agree, no smoke associated with a derate.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 09:34 AM   #8
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,752
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnibot2000 View Post
If my memory is correct. 7.3 powerstroke was built into the ecm 99 till end of production. OBS 7.3 was under dash and not built into the ecm.
That's likely what I was remembering. One had the sensor, the other filled in the data on initial key on. The sensor wasn't really needed, but if the sensor went bad it would throw things out of whack and was often overlooked.
__________________
My build: The Silver Bullet https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/p...llet-9266.html
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 10:38 AM   #9
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
That's likely what I was remembering. One had the sensor, the other filled in the data on initial key on. The sensor wasn't really needed, but if the sensor went bad it would throw things out of whack and was often overlooked.
That's true, that's why you need to compare values at KOEO.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 11:12 AM   #10
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,914
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I had always read that high coolant or high oil temp was supposed to de-rate the VT365, however a few years ago i remember a member here calling me for help as he was driving with the temo gauge near buried and asking if he should stop.. I could hear the alarm beepers in the background.. he drove it to the next exit instead of pulling over .. where the bus quit altogether.. on examination he had experienced high enough oil temp to melt down the oil filter stand pipe and ruin the engine.. after that I always questioned if de-rate really occurs..
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 01:58 PM   #11
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2024
Posts: 4
Unfortunately there was no stored codes on the bus lcd screen (likely from me clearing the codes on the scan gauge). Was one of those climbing a hill with traffic behind you situations. Just trying to get going.
My scan gauge has two stored codes - ID 34, FM 0, CNT 0 and ID 110, FM 2, CNT 0.
I haven’t been able to find anything online that shows what that means. But hopefully that will show something with you all.
Thanks for the info on the baro and map sensors. The air filter was checked and is clean.

Appreciate everyone’s help.
bicknack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 03:37 PM   #12
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Substitute ID for SPN.

You have code spn 110 fmi 2.

Quick search at home either engine coolant or engine oil temp exceeds 225 degrees. You said your coolant hit 204 degrees. That tells me your engine oil temp exceeded 225 degrees. Highly recommend you change your oil cooler. I always say if it exceeds more then 20 degrees between coolant and engine oil temps. Cooler is restricted. With that said. Clean your rad first. 204 is pretty hot.

Spn 34 FMI 0, that's your exhaust back pressure sensor. Look on the front left exhaust manifold. There should be a pipe threaded onto it. Follow the pipe to the sensor. That's your exhaust back pressure sensor. Code relates to bad signal. You need to check the wiring circuit and if it's good....replace the sensor. Again that's from me just searching at home.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 03:42 PM   #13
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
I had always read that high coolant or high oil temp was supposed to de-rate the VT365, however a few years ago i remember a member here calling me for help as he was driving with the temo gauge near buried and asking if he should stop.. I could hear the alarm beepers in the background.. he drove it to the next exit instead of pulling over .. where the bus quit altogether.. on examination he had experienced high enough oil temp to melt down the oil filter stand pipe and ruin the engine.. after that I always questioned if de-rate really occurs..
It should derate and it does. I've driven them with plugged rads and they can't get out of their way being so slow. Clean the rad. Reduce temps and power returns.

What it will not do is shut down the engine, I believe that can be turned on though in the ECM. You run it without coolant, you'll burn them up.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 04:32 PM   #14
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,752
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
IIRC on the codes I'm with omnibot2000.

Flush the cooling system thoroughly, install final charge or some other non-silicate coolant. Spraying out the radiator and check that the fan clutch is operational isn't a bad idea either. But the presence of the code indicates something was 225, and with a known coolant temp of 205, it has to be oil.
__________________
My build: The Silver Bullet https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/p...llet-9266.html
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 05:28 PM   #15
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2024
Posts: 4
How hard is it to change out the oil cooler? I'm handy with a wrench but also no mechanic. Is it something better left to the pros?

Also i will definitely flush the rad and clean it out. Bus had sat for awhile previous to me owning it, so it could be a long time since its had new coolant.
bicknack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 07:30 PM   #16
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicknack View Post
How hard is it to change out the oil cooler? I'm handy with a wrench but also no mechanic. Is it something better left to the pros?

Also i will definitely flush the rad and clean it out. Bus had sat for awhile previous to me owning it, so it could be a long time since its had new coolant.
You may want to remove the intercooler and blow out both the rad and intercooler. That is where dirt tends to pack up.....what you don't see.

Oil cooler is located under the bottom cover plate that your oil filter resides on.

Google 6.0 powerstroke oil cooler replacement. It's not a bad job. I would say it's also not for a beginner as well. Intake manifold has to come off and so on

Kinda funny, I grown tired of the 6.0 powerstroke, vt365. Rebuilt last one couple years ago. Said I'm done with them and decided to stick to the 7.3/t444e. Got one now in my garage with 120,000 miles on it. Doing some updates on the engine, rebuilding the turbo and head studding it......*sigh*
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 07:58 PM   #17
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2024
Posts: 4
Thanks for all the tips. Appreciate the help for sure. Definitely want to get this issue fixed before i burn something up.
bicknack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 08:07 PM   #18
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicknack View Post
Thanks for all the tips. Appreciate the help for sure. Definitely want to get this issue fixed before i burn something up.
No problem.

If and when you tackle the oil cooler, not much more to pulling the turbo and HPOP cover. You want to check the STC fitting on the HPOP. If it's a quick connect fitting, replace it to the thread solid fitting. Google STC fitting replacement. If you know it's been updated then don't worry bout it. The snap connect fitting can blow apart and leave you stranded. Worst case, they can crack the rear engine cover.
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2024, 08:11 PM   #19
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,914
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnibot2000 View Post
You may want to remove the intercooler and blow out both the rad and intercooler. That is where dirt tends to pack up.....what you don't see.

Oil cooler is located under the bottom cover plate that your oil filter resides on.

Google 6.0 powerstroke oil cooler replacement. It's not a bad job. I would say it's also not for a beginner as well. Intake manifold has to come off and so on

Kinda funny, I grown tired of the 6.0 powerstroke, vt365. Rebuilt last one couple years ago. Said I'm done with them and decided to stick to the 7.3/t444e. Got one now in my garage with 120,000 miles on it. Doing some updates on the engine, rebuilding the turbo and head studding it......*sigh*
Studding a 7.3 thatís hard core! I guess with the power Iím making out of mine I could soon be studding a 7.3 myself if I waste the head gasket lolol
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2024, 05:00 AM   #20
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Canada
Posts: 319
Year: 2001
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E, Allison 2000
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
Studding a 7.3 thatís hard core! I guess with the power Iím making out of mine I could soon be studding a 7.3 myself if I waste the head gasket lolol
Sorry, was not clear. Working on another 6.0 powerstroke/vt365......studding that engine.

More worried about the rotating assembly on a t444e then studs at high HP levels
Omnibot2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.