3800 radiator

Ironworker85 · 10-10-2020, 08:01 AM

Hey guys the rad on my 1998 3800 is a stock half rad and it’s starting to wheep on the bottom I’ve read that guys switch these out for a full rad. When switching to a full rad wat do u guys do for for charge air side?

cadillackid · 10-10-2020, 08:05 AM

alot depends on your engine and the clearances you have.. with a DT466 your radiator likely sits all the way back in the frame towards the fan.. there were IH 4700 series trucks built with full rad / charge cooler and the 466 / 466E.. I have yet to find a T444E with that setup in the wild..

there is a facebook group if you are on facebook, for International S series and 4000 series trucks.. Ive seen the question brought up on there.. and I believe someone posted part numbers of a rad and Charge cooler for a DT466 truck..

the 4700 and 3800 under the hood are very much the same..

Ironworker85 · 10-10-2020, 08:29 AM

Ok I do hav a 466e so I should try lookin for a full rad for a 4700? I jus got bus all painted up and when I had hood off I could tell old rad was gettin bad on bottom. I’m building the bus to tow my mud truck so I Wana try to stay as cool as possible

cadillackid · 10-10-2020, 08:42 AM

I had this one saved in my favorites..

https://www.4statetrucks.com/pc_prod...MaAmcnEALw_wcB

and i had this CAC saved..

https://www.4statetrucks.com/pc_prod...waAlBLEALw_wcB

I cant remember what I researched these for.. possibly adapting to my red bus which is a 444E.. there are literally many dozens of radiators for these things..

when measuring for a radiator measure the whole frame (including the CAC side) on your current one for dimensions. and then of course you'll need to make sure you have the grill clearance.. you should be OK as they built 4700s with high torque 466E's. that had full rad/CAC and an A/C in front.(on the truck the A/C is infront of CAC instead of underbody)

-Christopher

EastCoastCB · 10-10-2020, 10:59 AM

IC CE300's came with 465 and full rads.

cadillackid · 10-10-2020, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

IC CE300's came with 465 and full rads.

they also had more space between grill and support than the 3800 / 4700

Diverdude0075 · 10-13-2020, 01:05 PM

I have the T444E with the split radiator and air cooler. Has anyone successfully made the switch to full width? If so, was there any noticeable cooling?

cadillackid · 10-13-2020, 03:05 PM

I havent made that switch to full rad but the things that did help me were

1. switching out my Viscous Fan clutch and the metal fan for the 9 blade plastic 24 inch fan and the Horton E450 electric fan clutch.. (another forum member told me that he kept his viscous clutch but switched to the plastic fan and saw improved cooling)

2. swapped my AT545 for an allison 1000. which dropped my engine RPMs as well as added lockup and put less stress on the cooling system.
(I know of a couple people who added big coolers to their AT545s and saw improvement in engine cooling due to less heat load on the radiator)

at this point i consider my cooling issues as solved, even with my 444E cranked up to 250 HP. and in summer with the Air-conditioner on. I watch my temp reach 205, fan comes on and drops down to 198 and shuts off.. on the hottest days (low-mid 90s) my fan will come on and may stay on if im in 6th gear (lower RPM lower fan flow) and temp will stay at 200-202..

we will see what happens after I turn my engine up further with custom tunes and bigger injectors / turbo upgrade.. if that makes things run too hot or not.. if it does then ill be working to make the full rad swap..

I will say the radiator on the T444E sits further forward 1 inch than it does with a DT engine.. so hood / grille clearance needs to be considered on the 444E

Diverdude0075 · 10-13-2020, 03:51 PM

Good info, thanks Cadillackid!

I am hoping to do the tranny swap as well. I’m looking for a donor bus.

I thought about keeping my rear heater but mounting it underneath the bus to have the extra cooling capacity. Know anyone who has done this? It seems it would be easy. Plenty long hoses and wiring already exist. I would just waterproof the electrical connections. I suppose I would have to bypass the heater in the driver area though so I don’t get cooked...

She drove the 300+ miles when I picked her up but I had to run the heater and pulled over a few times and let her idle. I was pushing max rpms and max speed (57 mph)... for a good portion.

Another transmission idea I had is I wonder if you could use a transmission from a similar year F350 with the 7.3? You would have the correct bolt pattern I think, and huge aftermarket. Downside would be if you had to use that trucks ecm...not sure if that is possible on the T444E.

cadillackid · 10-13-2020, 04:55 PM

Well you are likely to want front heat at some point and a bus heater isn’t designed to be outdoors .. you could set up a system with of valves and an underbody radiator with a fan..

Have you checked to make sure your fan clutch works? Was your fan rip roaring when the bus was running hot? If not then you should check the clutch along with making sure the rad fins are clean and that the rad has good flow..

The IH 444e uses an SAE2 flywheel housing and not a ford style bolt pattern. SAE2 is then adapted down to SAE3 for AT545 / 2000 series

johnbloem1974 · 10-13-2020, 05:07 PM

CK - Speaking of fans, it seems like mine is always rip-roaring no matter what the temp is. (I remember you mentioning it when we were driving around in my bus a few winters ago in WV)I have a newer viscous clutch that I installed about 2 years ago, so I don't think its bad, just maybe not set right?
What seems to be happening now is that the rad shutters open at about 202, then it pretty quickly cools to 175, then the shutters close. Rinse and repeat.

I feel like it's not as good to be bouncing from 175 to 200 all day...

Any ideas on how to check the fan clutch out?

Should I change the settings for the radiator shutters also?

Thanks!

John

Booyah45828 · 10-13-2020, 07:13 PM

Your shutters should only be closed when it's cold out to provide additional heat. So if your temp switch is adjustable, I'd have it open well below the thermostat open temp. Like around 160 or so.

It makes no sense to have them closed above the thermostat temp. It especially makes no sense to have the radiator fan roaring with the shutters closed. If the engine is warm enough that the thermostat is flowing coolant into the radiator, there is no sense in blocking the air flow through the radiator with shutters.

If you have a viscous clutch, having the shutters closed will cause it to lock up sooner because you've trapped the air and heat in.

That cycling effect is definitely something you don't want.

My shutters are permanently disabled. Chris likes his, but I've seen too many times were they've failed closed and a driver overheats the bus because of it. I don't use my bus in the cold. If I do, and if it's that cold out that I need them, I'll put a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator.

cadillackid · 10-13-2020, 07:47 PM

It was told to me that the shutters should open above thermostat temp by 10 degrees or so in cold weather and be open all the time in warm weather. Idea being that while driving it heats the coolant in the radiator which then can be used as reserve for the heater when idling or in stop slow go route driving.. it also acts as a means to warm the engine above tstat temp for hotter heater air

Opening the shutters below Tstat does pretty much no good as the radiator is always cold when the shutters are open

johnbloem1974 · 10-13-2020, 07:57 PM

So it sounds like I got 2 things I need to look at...

1) Why is my fan blowing full-balls all the time and how to remedy that...

2) change the temperature settings on the shutters. Should be something more like closed until 10 over tstat setting, open at all times hotter than that...

Thoughts on the fan stuff?

Thanks!

John

cadillackid · 10-14-2020, 07:14 AM

do you know when your shutters are opening and closing? its normal when driving in cool or moderate weather for them to cycle oipen and closed, mine in the DEV bus do.. and if your fan is set too cool it will engage when the shutters are closed.. shutters open, everything cools way down and then the shutters close and masybe fan shuts off for a few..

its normal for the fan to turn on for like 2 minutes when you first start the bus and take off.. then it should shut off.. if the weather is mild or cool the fan should shut off regardless. because the tstat is closed, engine is cool and wont warm up before the fan should stop..

if your fan clutch spring broke and the spindle is all the way counter-clockwaise the fan will run constant.. if the bearing in the clutch seized. it will run constantly.

when the weather is warm or mild I have my shutters disabled.. they were annoying constantly cutting in and out.. and even on a summer morning they were closed in the AM..
disconnecting the wire on them turns them off so they stay open all the time...

I love having them because I use my bus in cold winter weather and in town.. esp where I will stop and idle for heat while i work in the mobile lab.. not as much a factor now that i have a webasto but still nice for getting lots of heat.. (my little body NEEDS lots of heat when its cold!)..

the initial desiogn of the shutters on mechanical engines is a temp sensor in the engine.. some are in the Tstat neck, others in the head.. seen them both places.. that sensor closes a switch whioch closes the shutters.. when the sensor gets hot it opens the switch and shutters fall open from a spring..

later on this function was placed in the ECM.. if the shutters were factory ordered then a circuit in the ECM closes the shutters.. and that function is programmable for open / close temperature.. im not sure what yours is, i didnt look in your computer at the shutters settings.. my bus is mechanical engine so its shutters are a non programmable sensor.. thus why I put a switch on the dash to disable them.. there are only a few times a year where i really want them

I suspect your fan clutch may be ailing.. having it spin all the time eats your MPGs up but your bus never gets hot..

Booyah45828 · 10-14-2020, 09:12 AM

The point of the shutters is to help get the coolant to thermostat temp on cold days. Certain days, it's too cold the engine can't even get up to temp without shutters because of the cold forced air going down the road. The buses with them stuck open would run around 130 or so, where as the buses that had them functional were at operating temp.

Having them shut after the thermostat opens isn't completely bad, because like you said, the radiator coolant will then warm up too which will help warm up your transmission fluid. But it's not necessary to have a radiator full of warm coolant for heater operation. The heaters should operate the same shutters open or closed, so long as the engine coolant is up to temp. You might get a slight difference between having 190 vs 180 coolant temp, but that's not near the same difference you'd see with coolant at 130 vs 180.

You can open the shutters at whatever temp you'd like, but having the fan engaged and the shutters closed is pointless. And in my experience, a bus with a viscous fan clutch will engage the clutch if the shutters are closed and the thermostat is flowing coolant into the radiator. That's because heat from the radiator will be trapped in the air around the clutch with no air flow, causing the clutch to engage. Once the shutters open, the radiator and engine coolant temp will drop like a rock, and shock the system. So either raise the fan on temp, or lower the shutter open temp, because shocking the system like that can ruin the engine.

cadillackid · 10-14-2020, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

The point of the shutters is to help get the coolant to thermostat temp on cold days. Certain days, it's too cold the engine can't even get up to temp without shutters because of the cold forced air going down the road. The buses with them stuck open would run around 130 or so, where as the buses that had them functional were at operating temp.

Having them shut after the thermostat opens isn't completely bad, because like you said, the radiator coolant will then warm up too which will help warm up your transmission fluid. But it's not necessary to have a radiator full of warm coolant for heater operation. The heaters should operate the same shutters open or closed, so long as the engine coolant is up to temp. You might get a slight difference between having 190 vs 180 coolant temp, but that's not near the same difference you'd see with coolant at 130 vs 180.

You can open the shutters at whatever temp you'd like, but having the fan engaged and the shutters closed is pointless. And in my experience, a bus with a viscous fan clutch will engage the clutch if the shutters are closed and the thermostat is flowing coolant into the radiator. That's because heat from the radiator will be trapped in the air around the clutch with no air flow, causing the clutch to engage. Once the shutters open, the radiator and engine coolant temp will drop like a rock, and shock the system. So either raise the fan on temp, or lower the shutter open temp, because shocking the system like that can ruin the engine.

you notice a **LOT** of difference between haveing 195 degree coolant vs 180 degree coolant in heater operation.. trust me on that one. as a fellow ohioan driving my bus in winter on short sleeves with **ALL SEVEN** heaters turned on **HIGH** means that when i exit the freeway and the temp is 195.. i can do stop n go traffic for much longer before my heater temp cools down.. or gives me a chance on a stretch of road between stop n go that it gets back up to 195 so when i either idle or get back to stop N go i still have good heat!

my engine will always make thermostat temp unless idling or in very little go mostly stop.. but that extra reserve is nice.. and my shutters arent adjusted thats the factory setup in this bus (which ran Tipp City ohio as a SPED bus)

johnbloem1974 · 10-14-2020, 09:53 AM

Thanks for all the info!

So, with the fan being a viscous clutch, how can I tell and adjust the fan setting temperature??

As far as the shutters, that is easy as I can do it via the computer...what should I set the shutters at? Right now, it seems that they open around 200 and close back up at 175. Ill have to check the computer to confirm...

It sounds like I should have them open up around 175 and stay open anything higher than that, then maybe have them closed around 150 and below?

Thoughts?

John

Booyah45828 · 10-14-2020, 11:15 AM

Most viscous clutches come from the factory set at 170 air temp, which would translate to about 200 or so radiator temp with the shutters open. Some will have notches on the hub by the spring for you to adjust it colder or hotter by about 10 degrees per notch. I've never found the need to adjust one, the clutch would be failed or the overheat would be caused by another issue, not the spring being out of adjustment.

Does your fan unlock ever? If it doesn't, the clutch might be junk then. Usually I've found them failed freewheeling, not locked, but I guess you could sieze the bearings in the clutch and lock it up.

How they normally operate, is it will be locked for the first minute or two of startup, then it should be unlocked until the air temp around the fan gets to 170 to lock it back up. If your shutters are closed until 200, that air around the clutch could get up hot enough to engage the fan. Then once the shutters open, you get a rapid temp drop, disengaging the fan and closing the shutters.

If your shutters are computer controlled, change your shutter temp to 180 and see if the fan stays on after they open then.

johnbloem1974 · 10-14-2020, 11:25 AM

So, the fan can be spun with some resistance when the engine is off, so I'm thinking its OK or at least the clutch is not seized. Sounds like my issue may more be the shutter settings. I'm driving to my next destination today, so I'll fiddle with the settings tonight.

Thanks again for the insights and I'll report back this evening...

John

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