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Old 06-24-2022, 05:13 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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95 t444e no start Jackpot winner

Hey everyone,

Having some issues with my 95 t444e. Namely no start, crank, no smoke.

Codes come up as 124, 253, 224, 615, and a couple others I can remember right now. Basically seems like a corrupt KAM, and no voltage or comm between the IDM and PCM.

I have a second IDM from a 99 f450 service truck that I swapped, and no change.

Seems like the course of action is to trace each line through the IDM relay, as well as the power and ground to the IDM.

Just curious if anybody else has fought this fight and seceded. Most of the searches I performed on the forum kinda Peter out with no resolution...

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Old 06-26-2022, 11:48 AM   #2
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Do you have a copy of EGES-125-1? The way you have the codes listed it seems the 124, 253 are active and the 224,615 are inactive. EGES-125-1 states to fix the active codes first. Page 91 in section 3.5 states that code 253 must be fixed before it will start. Page 146 of the same section states that "Code 124 may be set due to an open or short to ground on the signal circuit, a defective (ICP) sensor or an open VREF circuit". Both codes refer to an open VREF (voltage regulation) circuit.
Also it states that if 615 is present without 224 then you may have a problem with the ECM.
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Old 06-26-2022, 12:11 PM   #3
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I have the diagnostic manual, and have followed most the flow charts to the point of needing the breakout box. I haven't riddled my way around my lack of a box yet, but I'm sure there is a non destructive solution.
I've cleared 124, I forgot I had the ICP disconnected.
So, codes currently read:
543
253
242
224
543
615

I tried the ol' hold diag, three throttle press, code clear, but they all still come up.
I will mention that the WTS light does come on, GPR engages and passes power.
It seems like the bulk of the problem is ECM to Idm comm, so I'm focusing on the wiring now, but trying to wrap my head around next steps.
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Old 06-26-2022, 12:54 PM   #4
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I can't really be of much assistance here but I would comment that of the three conditions you mention in your first post, "no start, no crank, no smoke", the no crank is the most interesting. You have battery voltage straight from the batteries to the starter/solenoid. I was just trying to find my wiring diagram for the bus but I couldn't but it seems to me there shouldn't be much preventing the starter from engaging - like the ignition switch and a relay? I'd be tempted to try to figure out that circuit first 'cause if'n it don't crank it ain't gonna light.
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Old 06-26-2022, 12:58 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Howard Moon Thoughts View Post
I have the diagnostic manual, and have followed most the flow charts to the point of needing the breakout box. I haven't riddled my way around my lack of a box yet, but I'm sure there is a non destructive solution.
I've cleared 124, I forgot I had the ICP disconnected.
So, codes currently read:
543
253
242
224
543
615

I tried the ol' hold diag, three throttle press, code clear, but they all still come up.
I will mention that the WTS light does come on, GPR engages and passes power.
It seems like the bulk of the problem is ECM to Idm comm, so I'm focusing on the wiring now, but trying to wrap my head around next steps.
I thought I did 5 throttle presses on my 466E with the 3 box system. You may still have some inactive codes remaining after clearing. I believe 253 is your main issue. It references cylinder identification which refers back to the camshaft position sensor or from the CMP to the ecm. If it doesn't do it job then nothing happens.
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Old 06-26-2022, 01:06 PM   #6
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I can't really be of much assistance here but I would comment that of the three conditions you mention in your first post, "no start, no crank, no smoke", the no crank is the most interesting. You have battery voltage straight from the batteries to the starter/solenoid. I was just trying to find my wiring diagram for the bus but I couldn't but it seems to me there shouldn't be much preventing the starter from engaging - like the ignition switch and a relay? I'd be tempted to try to figure out that circuit first 'cause if'n it don't crank it ain't gonna light.
I must've been on a roll....it does crank. Crank, no smoke, no start
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Old 06-26-2022, 01:08 PM   #7
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I thought I did 5 throttle presses on my 466E with the 3 box system. You may still have some inactive codes remaining after clearing. I believe 253 is your main issue. It references cylinder identification which refers back to the crankshaft position sensor or from the cps to the ecm. If it doesn't do it job then nothing happens.
I do see around 200 rpm at crank, but i will dig deeper on that.
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Old 06-26-2022, 01:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Howard Moon Thoughts View Post
I do see around 200 rpm at crank, but i will dig deeper on that.
As I understand it, the camshaft position sensor is trying to find cylinder position in order to fire injectors which would be different than rpms. If it can't locate #1 then it will not relay that back to the ecm.
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Old 06-26-2022, 01:34 PM   #9
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That makes sense. Just working through the flow in diag manual again, and it seems like I have an open line on the 97cb to ground, so I'm gonna chase that out.
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Old 06-29-2022, 05:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Moon Thoughts View Post
Hey everyone,
Having some issues with my 95 t444e. Namely no start, crank, no smoke.
Codes come up as 124, 253, 224, 615, and a couple others I can remember right now. Basically seems like a corrupt KAM, and no voltage or comm between the IDM and PCM.


I have a second IDM from a 99 f450 service truck that I swapped, and no change.

Seems like the course of action is to trace each line through the IDM relay, as well as the power and ground to the IDM.
Just curious if anybody else has fought this fight and seceded. Most of the searches I performed on the forum kinda Peter out with no resolution...



1) If you haven't already, put the original IDM back into the bus. These are computers and they're not interchangeable like that. The programming flashed into the IDM of an F450 work truck is completely different from that of a DT444E.


2) Charge your batteries.
Cranking but no smoke and no start means you have no fuel delivery. Fuel delivery is inhibited if the engine is not cranking over fast enough OR if the voltage drops below 10.5 volts.....at the ECM....While cranking.


3) While you're charging your batteries, check for separate wires attached to the batteries with inline fuse holders. Check for corrosion, mechanical stability, continuity, and that the fuze(s) are passing current through them. In many buses this is the source of power to the ECM.


Above all else.....DO NOT just start throwing parts at it. That's a very expensive way to troubleshoot and creates extra hassles when yo have now been into multiple places.
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Old 06-29-2022, 05:34 PM   #11
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1) If you haven't already, put the original IDM back into the bus. These are computers and they're not interchangeable like that. The programming flashed into the IDM of an F450 work truck is completely different from that of a DT444E.


2) Charge your batteries.
Cranking but no smoke and no start means you have no fuel delivery. Fuel delivery is inhibited if the engine is not cranking over fast enough OR if the voltage drops below 10.5 volts.....at the ECM....While cranking.


3) While you're charging your batteries, check for separate wires attached to the batteries with inline fuse holders. Check for corrosion, mechanical stability, continuity, and that the fuze(s) are passing current through them. In many buses this is the source of power to the ECM.


Above all else.....DO NOT just start throwing parts at it. That's a very expensive way to troubleshoot and creates extra hassles when yo have now been into multiple places.

**THIS**


great info here..



also pay attention to the 5xx and 6xx codes these are related to inter-module communication and memory corruption of the computers.. Low voltage on any one module will toss 5xx and 6xx codes by the dozens.. it doesnt mean these modules are bad.. like hamskoolie says check the connections, grounds, and supply voltages both..
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Old 06-29-2022, 06:33 PM   #12
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Batteries have been load tested and are in fair shape, fully charged, fuses are good with connections checked and rechecked. Continuity is good to the front.
Original Idm went back in immediately after testing the other. IDM gets power. Measured a few places while cranking, and nothing lower than 11.5V

Fuel makes it to the bowl with about 36psi

Grounds have been checked, cleaned and reconnected with a thin layer of die electric grease.

All the comm pcm-idm wires read good continuity wise. I'm an electrician by trade, so my meter is quality, and I know my way around wiring and schematics.

Tossing parts at things isn't my style, so going over the basic low cost checks seemed the logical starting point.
From everything I can tell, this seems to be in the wiring and only shows under load, or one of the modules has packed it in. I'm certainly open to other possibilities.

It's possible I've overlooked something small and obvious, but I've really been trying to focus on the low hanging fruit.
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Old 06-29-2022, 06:39 PM   #13
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I really appreciate the insights and replies. My background wrenching mostly lies with air-cooled VW's and day to day maintenance on the daily drivers. I'm sure I'll find the issue, frustrating as it may be, lol
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Old 06-29-2022, 11:03 PM   #14
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I really appreciate the insights and replies. My background wrenching mostly lies with air-cooled VW's and day to day maintenance on the daily drivers. I'm sure I'll find the issue, frustrating as it may be, lol
Oh the simplicity of the air cooled VW. Four bolts and some tin work... swap a motor out in a couple of hours.
Those are not these beasts called the 7.3 and the DT444E. But you'll learn it.


CPS is the next thing that is a common issue though I dont know if fuel injection is inhibited or just out of time when it goes. It's like a $35 part and most 7.3 truck guys carry a spare, that's how often they fail. I haven't heard the longevity issues on the DT444E side but perhaps someone else can bring some light on that.
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Old 06-29-2022, 11:33 PM   #15
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I was thinking about replacing the CPS, but have held back, as I do see rpm. One of the codes thrown, short/open CI, which if I'm correct, is the cylinder position based on the cps pulse, so it does seem possible to me that the tach could read rpm and the IDM may not receive the pulse for it.
I also get a couple other similar codes that relate to communicating, ECU to Idm, and Kam corruption, so I'm not confident that a CPS alone would be the root cause.

I think back probing the pcm to mimic the breakout box tests may be my best next step at this point.
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Old 06-29-2022, 11:52 PM   #16
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if the computer senses erratic signals then it will not fire the injectors...



so the cam wheel (tone wheel) is made up of "windows and targets" as they are called..



a window is wherew there is no material.. and the sensor sends a '0 volt ' signal.. a target is a divider between windows and the sensor sends a high (12 volt)


the window for cylinder # 1 and #4 are specail.. so it knows how many windows and targets to count between #1 and #4..



when you crank the engine over the computer must see a stable CPS signal before it will fire the injectors... this is why sometimes your cranking time is short.. other times it seems a little longer...



the computer establishes a frequency based on the targets around the narrow #4 window and wide #1 window... there is acceptable deviation in the signal as the RPM is not constant... the engine slows down when its on a compression stroke and esp near the end of a compression stroke.... once the computer establishes where the crank is, it knows for the slowdowns and speedups to match the firing order.. but if the CPS sends random blips.. or misses random targets (shows up as extra wide windows (0's) then it loses count and must resync.. the computer will shut the injectors down on a running engine that produces erratic signals.. I played with this on mine... however if the computer re establishes a stable pattern whilke the engine is still spinning it will re-start and run on its own (without you clicking the key)...



firing the injectors out of time is extremely dangerous to a diesel.. so an errant signal will just shut the injectors down till it resyncs in as short of time as 1 crank rev...



if you have servicemaxx you should be able to watch it while cranking.. and 1, see RPM... and also see the fuel rate... if there is no fuel rate you'll know the computer isnt even trying to start it... if you get a fuel rate / injector pulse but nothing happens then you know its not the computer's fault.. that it could be no fuel in the rail, not enough HPOP (you can watch the HPOP.. it needs to be at least 500 PSI)
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Old 07-01-2022, 08:03 PM   #17
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So, a couple developments, replaced the CPS and most codes moved to inactive. Only 543 remains. Should start. Won't went through all checks that made sense. No pressure oil pressure read, so I opened the hpop reservoir. It was dry. Tried to top it up, but it drains out as quick as I pour it in. Not sure if a check valve or gasket makes more sense. Bus is a 95, not sure if the block is a 94 or 95, and I think I once read that the hpop seal changed at some point.
Any thoughts?
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Old 07-01-2022, 09:23 PM   #18
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the main revision I know of is that one seal has a basket in it.. apparently to catch pieces of an HPOP if it nukes..
so if oil could flow through the HPOP.. ie the HPOP broke or part of it did then it could flow right on by the IPR snd back to the pan... ( i was told at one time that the IPR typicall is open when the engine is off) technically oil shouldnt be able to run right through the HPOP at least i didnt think so... but honestly I never tried it when I had my HPOP out to change it.. if it blew out the reservoire gasket in the right place the oil would run into the timing gear cavity andback to the pan.. and never make it to the HPOP..
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Old 07-02-2022, 09:46 AM   #19
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How common is it to have two seemingly unrelated issues to happen at once or are they related? Section 3.5 page 89 mentions wrong part number IDM for code 543. Is it possible the ecm has the temporary IDM part number in its memory?
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Old 07-02-2022, 09:58 AM   #20
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that 543 is one ive never seen.. I honestly didnt know it existed.. theres reference to 543 being an IDM relay issue on schoolbus fleet. but IO think the OP verified power to both the temp and the new IDM.. however if the communications link to the IDM is defunct or is erratic then it might read invalid data and toss that code...



ultimately im beginning to wonder if the ECM is a big culprit here.. leaving the IPR wide open for oil to drain through.. not talking to the IDM..
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