Adding J1939 to a 3 box for allison swap

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Bouje bus

You are 100% again. T444e. Wetness in the valley.

Not red like trans fluid, but thin and honey colored. Not like oil in pan.

The fuel pump is what you took a pic of. , if it doesn’t smell like fuel , look at your powered steering lines. The power steering pump is on top of the HPOP at the front of the engine (drives from the gear drive and sits above the valley

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by nikitis

Nicely done gentleman. I now have a solution for when my AT545 dies. I'm waiting on the device to arrive and I have the know how, at least electronically now from your tests.

Did you guys install the transmission yourselves? And if so which ones did you add?

theres different options...


the easiest to bolt on is going to be a 1000/2000 with an SAE3 bell..



your cheapest option would likely be a donor bus that you can harvest transmission and harness from.. with IH busses on a 444E they kept the transmission harness sepaate of the main so its a pretty decent straightforward harvest of wiring and a transmisison.. (maybe even a front driveshaft)..


the SAE3 bell 2000 series is a direct bolt up to where you remove a 545.. converter bolt pattern, offset, bell pattern, etc are all the same..



your shifter is a re-use.. pattern is the same.



to use a 3000 series (MD3060) you'll have different pieces to source.. I know T444E were made with 3060's, I have seen them, however I dont know the part numbers for the offset spacers, flexplate, hub, etc.. if you got lucky enough to find a setup complete housing to tailshaft from a 444E you could bolt it up.



parking brake - if you have a park brake on the back of the 545 you can mod it and make a cable bracket and re-use it on a 1000/2000 series.. easiest would be if you have air brakes or if you find a trans with it already on there..



doing a harvest from a T444E bus will net you a 5 speed 1000/2000.. there are no 6 speed unlocks for a pre 2006 1000/2000 transmission.


if you want a 6 speed, you'll need to source a later transmission, and then source 4th gen controls for it..



finding 2006-2009 transmisisons is pretty easy.. there are quite a few out there for the taking..



wiring harness and TCM.. my favorite recommendation is jason at transmissiontuner dot com. he is a good guy.. but also very busy and a one man band so plan ahead if you choose to order form him. it will take awhile for him to make a harness, and program up a TCM... the advantage to this solution is you can pay him an hourly rate to dial it into your setup, or you can buy EFIlive and tune your shift tables to your own liking..



there are other companies like CA conversions which are top notch and can get your parts quickly but are also $$$.. and you cant tune their TCM with EFIlive or HPtuner.. I found the TCM I have from CA conversion to run a much lower shift RPM than I prefer at part throttle. their TCM is more suited for an inline 6 like a 5.9 cummins or a DT466, their wire harness is very well made. (thats the harness I have)


I went a step further and had a transmission built.. I had a transmission over-built as i figured at some point I would be hopping up the engine at some point and didnt want to ruin a transmission... it was sold to me by CA conversion and built by suncoast.. not a cheap option.. but I have 7 years and ??? miles with zero issues so its been a good purchase in my book for what I wanted.



so my setup is a transmisison from suncoast ("built"t allison 1000 (2009 spec)). a TCM from jason, and a wiring harness from CA conversions.. (since then ive added some pins to my wiring harness for more IO functionality)... I also have an EFIlive and HPtuner to use for programming it.. I bought the HPtuner and have yet to use it(I should prob use it before the warranty expures).. the EFI has treated me real well.


you'll need to reprogram your Navistar computer "transmission type" to 'allison MD' so that the speedometer works correctly...



if you dare to dig into the deeply technical you can read the "redbyrd transformation" thread...

[cadillackid]

so apparently with this AU device there is no way to get it to display or utilize any more parameters than the 20 that are built in... so unfortunately it probably wont work for the side project I had planned to use it. ill probably have to build something else..

[nikitis]

I wonder if we could contact AU and ask for a firmware update for the values you are looking for.

[nikitis]

Actually forget my last comment. This could potentially be done though on the AU device, but I think the issue comes that there's no translation to J1708. J1708 has limited values.

It's the same reason a bluefire shows a limited data set, compared to those on J1939 buses. So I think even if AU upgraded firmware to do a translation, they wouldn't be able to translate it to anything a 3Box ECM would understand and then we're getting into upgrading the main computer which as we know is difficult. Do the later 1 box ECM's run on J1939?

If so we'd have to develop a technique to replace the T444E harness with a 1 box Harness. Not sure how doable that is with the older T444E. That's a lot of weeds.

What device were you planning on hooking up?

If it's a value that works on a J1708, the AU device could be firmware upgraded if AU would add the translation values to their firmware for you and it should work, but I think in most cases the limitation is going to be the lack of J1708 parameters that exist on the ECM.

[cadillackid]

you lost me... i know the parameters are being sent via the J1708 but the AU device doesnt support them... I doubt theres a field way to update firmware unless its a completely wierd way over a serial port...



im not worried about it, I'll just build what I need..


my t444E is a single box.. it may be possible to get the data I want directly from the J1939.. im not yet sure how deep the navistar implementation is.. if its deep enough It will accept requests for PGN/SPN.. that will be my next play is if I can request the parameters i want..



they are related to ICP/IPR, desired / actual / duty cycle. as well as injecton event data..

[nikitis]

My Au device came in the mail yesterday. It's smaller than I thought. I ordered the open harness and the DB9 to USB cable.

So at least I have one in case they go out of business and I need a new transmission later, I'll at least have one stored away.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by nikitis

My Au device came in the mail yesterday. It's smaller than I thought. I ordered the open harness and the DB9 to USB cable.

So at least I have one in case they go out of business and I need a new transmission later, I'll at least have one stored away.

just do the swap and git R done


your T444E will come alive when you get rid of the sludge-box

[Bouje bus]

i got a little side tracked with a leaking fuel pump, but that has been resolved.

i drove the bus to work today. 18 miles. i runs and shifts smoothly, but the shift points are odd.

first pulls nicely, smooth shift to 2nd then it hangs out to 2500 ish rpm, and the shift to 3rd is not random, but not consistent either.
it seems like i'm at 80% throttle to keep accelerating, then to get it to shift to 3rd/4th if i let off a little it shifts up and i can give it more throttle to keep accelerating.

not sure if the shifting is due to throttle position being the only input its running off of, or if it needs to "learn" the new ECM/shifting points.

morning traffic wasn't helping, but i did get a open spot to get up to 65. was a great feeling. very smooth. 35 min drive in traffic and highway and coolant temp only got to 209. dropped back to 200 within a couple min of getting to work and letting it idle as i got ready to go in.

thank you all so much for your help in getting this all sorted out.
i love driving my bus again!!!!

Patrick

[cadillackid]

any idea what your allison trans (and more importantly TCM) came off of? same or different engine than your bus?

[Bouje bus]

it came out of a 2001 bus with a T444e.

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

theres different options...

the easiest to bolt on is going to be a 1000/2000 with an SAE3 bell..

the SAE3 bell 2000 series is a direct bolt up to where you remove a 545.. converter bolt pattern, offset, bell pattern, etc are all the same..

your shifter is a re-use.. pattern is the same.

parking brake - if you have a park brake on the back of the 545 you can mod it and make a cable bracket and re-use it on a 1000/2000 series.. easiest would be if you have air brakes or if you find a trans with it already on there..

doing a harvest from a T444E bus will net you a 5 speed 1000/2000.. there are no 6 speed unlocks for a pre 2006 1000/2000 transmission.

if you want a 6 speed, you'll need to source a later transmission, and then source 4th gen controls for it..

finding 2006-2009 transmisisons is pretty easy.. there are quite a few out there for the taking..

wiring harness and TCM.. my favorite recommendation is jason at transmissiontuner dot com. he is a good guy.. but also very busy and a one man band so plan ahead if you choose to order form him. it will take awhile for him to make a harness, and program up a TCM... the advantage to this solution is you can pay him an hourly rate to dial it into your setup, or you can buy EFIlive and tune your shift tables to your own liking..


so my setup is a transmisison from suncoast ("built"t allison 1000 (2009 spec)). a TCM from jason, and a wiring harness from CA conversions.. (since then ive added some pins to my wiring harness for more IO functionality)... I also have an EFIlive and HPtuner to use for programming it.. I bought the HPtuner and have yet to use it(I should prob use it before the warranty expures).. the EFI has treated me real well.

you'll need to reprogram your Navistar computer "transmission type" to 'allison MD' so that the speedometer works correctly...



if you dare to dig into the deeply technical you can read the "redbyrd transformation" thread...

So I want to get this clear on what I need. I'd like 6 gears as I value some top speed. Please confirm:

Allison 1000 likely,
SAE3,
2006-2009 model with 6 gears.

You said I can reuse the shifter however my shifter only shows 1,2,3,D, wouldn't I need a shifter that can handle 1,2,3,4,5,D? Or does it not matter because it's in D, which cycles through each gear anyway?

When you mention 4th Gen controls what exactly do you mean? TCM? Or Digital Shifter?

You also mentioned I need a wiring harness and TCM. Are these 3 separate things? TCM, Wiring Harness, 4th Gen Controls. I don't know the chain of hardware required on a modern setup.

I don't require additional I/O's. I won't need to do additional stuff to it like you once it's set up. I may use Jason for the TCM programming initially, but once it's set up I likely won't care to modify it further.

I just need an explaination of how it all comes together and what I need to move forward. I do want 6 speed, I don't mind if allison 1000 or 2000k, which ever is cheaper and can get me to 6 speed. Gotta be better than the 545 in either case.

For the wiring harness is it a ton of wires or just splicing the few we had in our diagram? I just want to understand it all. Would be helpful for others as well going down this path.

[Bouje bus]

Nikitis, if you have the time to shop around, try to find a transmission still in a bus that the salvage yard will pull the whole harness without chopping it up.
i didnt realize the yard just chopped the harness out of the bus, so i had to dig through the diagrams and rewire a bunch of connectors.

so far i'm in for, 1997 chassis with j1708 ECM updated with Allison 2500, TCM and harness, and the AU upconverter box. I did get a new shifter and cable, as the original barely had enough cable throw to get past D. with that i made my own mounting bracket. i also modified the original parking brake braket to fit the newer trans.

i got lucky and the trans fit, with the manual parking brake and i didn't have to shorten the driveshaft.

souns like Chris recommends a newer Allison (2006 or newer) so that you get the newer TCM and ability to unlock 6th.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Bouje bus

Nikitis, if you have the time to shop around, try to find a transmission still in a bus that the salvage yard will pull the whole harness without chopping it up.
i didnt realize the yard just chopped the harness out of the bus, so i had to dig through the diagrams and rewire a bunch of connectors.

so far i'm in for, 1997 chassis with j1708 ECM updated with Allison 2500, TCM and harness, and the AU upconverter box. I did get a new shifter and cable, as the original barely had enough cable throw to get past D. with that i made my own mounting bracket. i also modified the original parking brake braket to fit the newer trans.

i got lucky and the trans fit, with the manual parking brake and i didn't have to shorten the driveshaft.

souns like Chris recommends a newer Allison (2006 or newer) so that you get the newer TCM and ability to unlock 6th.

its interesting you have a bit of gear hang... so the way the ECM and throttle work on my T444E (single box throttle map 0)... in neutral and parked, the amount I press my throttle pedal corresponds to a set RPM.. unlike a regular gas car, pressing the gas halfway down in neutral doesnt rev the engine to oblivion... its a set RPM...


I wonder if the map in a 3 box is different.. or if a 3 box is deasigned ot act like a gas car where pressing the pedal 1/3 or halfway down in neutral revs to the redline...



I wish the serial port on the AU showed the TPS so I could post my TPS values (0-100%) and the RPM the engine sets in neutral.. we could compare notes and see if theres a difference..



in my case I bought a new TCM with 6 gears already available.. in actuality there is no true "lockout " of 6th,. the program in the TCM sets the shift point for 6th gear super high so the vehicle can never reach the speed..its not a secret unlock code...



2006-2009 allison 1000 / 2000 are typically 4th gen.. school busses have to be looked at closely as they can lag a year behind.. so a 2006 bus may have a 2005 chassis under it...


the TCM for a 4th gen is a single large (80 pin) connector instead of the 3rd gen which has 2 smaller connectors...



there is no 6 gear allison 1000/2000 paired with a 3rd gen TCM. (the MD3060 is a different bird altogether thus had 6 gears in 3rd gen).


the T handle shift for a 1000/2000 doesnt have any more positions than an AT545... same number of clicks...


it is R-N-D-4-2-1 typically. (even the 6 speeds)..


I chose the route of buying a programmable TCM from jason and the EFIlive system to do so.. this way i could handle the little shift pecularities I didnt like.. of course about the time I got my shift scheduling damn perfect, I went and re-geared the rear.. now im into it again driving and programming...


with the right rear gears 6th gear is valvuable.. now that im set up right, I hardly notice in feel the up or down shift from 5 to 6 but definitely notice it in the power of the bus.. climb an incline and it goes 6-5 and that couple hundred extra RPM spools the turbo..then back at the top and t goes right back to 6...

[Bouje bus]

I'm using my scanguage D, to read the 1708 data.

That is so interesting what you said about throttle and RPM.

I'll try the rev it up and see if it maxes out or goes to a specific rpm.

Drove home from work to meet mobile tire guys. On the highway it's great. Just a weird 2nd/3rd hang up.

Oddly starting out it revs, hiccups, then keeps on going.



If there is anything else I can lookup via scanguage let me know. The more info we get the more thorough this write up will be.

[cadillackid]

scangauge works...


so this is my default throttle map.. its TPS % and RPM..
transmission in neutral just pressing the pedal..


so lets say the allison is set to shift at 2000 RPM at the percent of throttle you are at.. and your engine only revs to 1900 at that throttle.. the result will feel like its hanging till you reduce throttle a bit or possibly step on it and go faster the map may meet better..


also the shift pattern on most school busses is 1-2-2L-3L-4L-5L
L indicating lockup.. lockup feels like a shift typically so its possible te weird feeling you notice is it going into a lockup which at light load feels like a 1/2 a shift




Throttle 0
0 - 700
10 - 830
20 - 1000
30 - 1140
40 - 1310
50 - 1500
60 - 1710
70 - 1930
80 - 2150
90 -2370
100 - 2700

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

its interesting you have a bit of gear hang... so the way the ECM and throttle work on my T444E (single box throttle map 0)... in neutral and parked, the amount I press my throttle pedal corresponds to a set RPM.. unlike a regular gas car, pressing the gas halfway down in neutral doesnt rev the engine to oblivion... its a set RPM...


I wonder if the map in a 3 box is different.. or if a 3 box is deasigned ot act like a gas car where pressing the pedal 1/3 or halfway down in neutral revs to the redline...



I wish the serial port on the AU showed the TPS so I could post my TPS values (0-100%) and the RPM the engine sets in neutral.. we could compare notes and see if theres a difference..



in my case I bought a new TCM with 6 gears already available.. in actuality there is no true "lockout " of 6th,. the program in the TCM sets the shift point for 6th gear super high so the vehicle can never reach the speed..its not a secret unlock code...



2006-2009 allison 1000 / 2000 are typically 4th gen.. school busses have to be looked at closely as they can lag a year behind.. so a 2006 bus may have a 2005 chassis under it...


the TCM for a 4th gen is a single large (80 pin) connector instead of the 3rd gen which has 2 smaller connectors...



there is no 6 gear allison 1000/2000 paired with a 3rd gen TCM. (the MD3060 is a different bird altogether thus had 6 gears in 3rd gen).


the T handle shift for a 1000/2000 doesnt have any more positions than an AT545... same number of clicks...


it is R-N-D-4-2-1 typically. (even the 6 speeds)..


I chose the route of buying a programmable TCM from jason and the EFIlive system to do so.. this way i could handle the little shift pecularities I didnt like.. of course about the time I got my shift scheduling damn perfect, I went and re-geared the rear.. now im into it again driving and programming...


with the right rear gears 6th gear is valvuable.. now that im set up right, I hardly notice in feel the up or down shift from 5 to 6 but definitely notice it in the power of the bus.. climb an incline and it goes 6-5 and that couple hundred extra RPM spools the turbo..then back at the top and t goes right back to 6...

Ok, I get what you are saying about the shifter. Still confused on the TCM thing. Is it wired like picture below? In the pic the item on the far bottom left is an Allison tester which is supposed to emulate a Transmission I believe.

So for the uninitiated, on a modern 2006-2009 4th Gen, it goes from TCM, to 80-pin connector, to transmission, then on the green and yellow it's like the before wiring diagram I drew correct?

If so, where does the power for the TCM come from?

[cadillackid]

couple things here.. likely in that test harness they wired in tye power pins at the "transmission" end of that tester that then go to the TCM..


in a nbormal setup the harness has a BAT+ (hot all the time), and an IGN (hot with key on) wires going to the TCM slong with a ground or 2. so thats how the TCM is powered..
the harness will also have wires coming off of it for the check trans , inhibit, (possibly an econ mode switch).. and maybe an input or 2 for inhibit in case the bus was sold as a SPED unit. all those wires are not show in that tester harness..



your diagram below is still incorrect.. BAT+ to the ignition is hot all the time.. think of ot as 'IN' from the mains.. just like a light switch in a house.. you have 1 wire coming in that is always got the electricity waiting to go to the bulb, its not until the switch is turned on that electricity flows to the bulb...


a typicall ignition switch has the following.


1. BAT+ (input power After a fuse.. ALWAYS HOT


2. ground - safety ground


3. ACC+ - Output for accessories such as radio (ONLY HOT when key is in ACC or 'ON'


4. IGN+ - Output for engine run and driving accessories like fuel pump, ECM.TCM(ONLY HOT when key is in 'ON / RUN' position


5. START+ - output for engine starter circuitry. spins over the engine. momentary. (ONLY HOT when key is held in this momentary spring release position. in many switches the ACC+ terminal is TURNED OFF when key is in this position.


you hook your TCM BAT+ to a fuse that comes form your battery..


you hook your TCM IGN+ to a SWITCHED output on the 'RUN' portion of your ignition. if it were me id simply use the existing feed for the relay that the old Modulator used... the FEED wire.. dont use the switched wire... you will no longer need the AT545 power feed..

[nikitis]

Updated Graphic

[Bouje bus]

Drove the bus from Phoenix to Greer Arizona for Labor Day. handled the mountains like a champ!!!!
down shifting actually slowed the bus when needed. some of the longer pulls got down to 43 mph. way better than with the 545. it does seem to hang onto taller gears longer than i'd like. occasionally i'd manually downshift just to keep the RPM up.

she likes to cruise at 63.
very happy

nikitis your diagram exactly matches my wiring set up.
i've got a scan guage plugged into the 1708 port. i was watching throttle %, RPM, Water temp, and speed. cant believe the speed is still accurate post swap.