All Right, I'm Lost

[averyonic]

I feel like I am drowning in information that I don't understand and also can't find the answers for exact questions I have. Everything I search seems to only give me more questions.

Can somebody explain to me like I am 5 what makes the DT466 the seemingly preferred engine both in the technical specifications and the real world reasons you would want those things?

Also, I am looking at mid sized busses and have found a lot of T444 engines, but I haven't found any DT466 engines in a mid size bus (around 8 windows in length, dog nose). Are DT466 only in full size busses? Would I even be able to find a mid sized bus with a DT466 in it? Are the reasons a DT466 are great overkill in a midsize bus and that's why all the mid size busses I find have T444 engines? Is a T444 fine for a midsize bus or would I want something better, and if yes what is the better option?

Also my dad told me some engines are better because you can do an in frame rebuild, is there a convenient list of which engines can do that? All I have found is that it apparently has to do with a dry vs wet sleeve 19 times and I am even more confused.

[magnakansas]

I have some time to talk about engines and busses if you like .. telephone,


785 207 7600 yea like now if you have the time

william topeka

[averyonic]

I do appreciate the fast option, but I have some issues with phone calls, and also memory, and prefer to communicate in written form

(also as a girl born in the 90s no matter how innocent 'yes just call me real quick to talk about engines' is, a weird infomercial about stranger danger and don't give your phone number to people you don't know is playing in the back of my head lol)

[magnakansas]

I am going to divide engines in to different groups...

older engines like around 1995 and older are mostly mechanical engines.. no electricity needed... angry pixies so to speak.

medium duty engines and pickup truck kind of engines.


expensive to rebuild and really expensive to rebuild.

treat this like a chat room and ask away with questions

william

[djdalfaro]

1. Straight 6 engines are inherently longer lasting than V8. They are more balanced.
2. Wet sleeve engines have removable cylinder (sleeves), vs parent bore which have to be taken out of the frame and taken to a shop to have new cylinders bored in if needed. This makes overhauls cheaper, easier, etc... This is an in-frame.
3. Yes you can find DT466s in 8 window buses. They will be rarer.
4. The T444E will be fine in an 8 window bus. I'd rather have a Cummins 5.9 in a short bus, but either is fine. I actually have a 7 window DT408 (lil sister to DT466, even rarer), even an older DT360 would be fine.

[magnakansas]

so International v8 diesels.... you have to remove the engine out of the truck/bus in order to do a really good rebuild. The engine blocks are "parent blocks" or engines you cant replace the cylinder. The cylinder is the tube that the piston goes up and down inside.

Engines that have replaceable sleeves like the DT466 are easier to rebuild with that big ol engine block in the bus.. You dont have take the 1500 lbs of engine out of the bus.

so anyways, international v-8 diesels as far as I can tell none of them had "wet sleeves"

william

[averyonic]

Alright, I did some searching and got nowhere, so I took a break and then came back..... and still got nowhere. But what I have learned is when it comes to International engines, the V8 is not as good as the straight 6 both because the V8s don't seem to have any with wet sleeves/replaceable sleeves/removable cylinders and the straight 6 is more balanced.

I am not fully sure what the balanced part means.


Next hang up I have is am I focusing on the wrong part? What are the other factors in engines that make one a better choice than others? Before today I just assumed more = better with engines and I was obviously wrong since the straight 6 is better than the V8.
I know that horsepower determines how much an engine can pull and/or how fast the vehicle can go, but I do not know how important that is. I've been under the assumption that a bus obviously won't be winning any races, but since busses are rated to pull the weight of all the kids at full capacity, I won't need to worry too much about the weight of what I put inside the bus. Would I need to start worrying if I wanted to tow a car?

I'm also completely lost on transmission. I have no idea what the differences between any transmissions are other than the very basic manual vs automatic and there can be more or less speeds (like a 5 speed vs 6 speed)

[averyonic]

Also just a side note, big thank you to anyone that takes time to help me. I know all the information I am needing is out there and can be found, and I really did try to find it on my own, but absolutely nothing was making sense and it felt very overwhelming.

[Ronnie]

Horsepower matters if you will be driving a lot, towing anything, or going in the mountains. The more the better. Horsepower is a measure of work that can be done.

[magnakansas]

This is a concept, an idea, an opinion. It is kinda like ford dodge chevy datsun..... toyota... people like them for an idea, an opinion.

every engine has strong points and weak points.

Example... I know that an electronic engine will have a cleaner exhaust ON AVERAGE than an engine with a mechanical injection system.

MOST fuel injected gasoline engines last longer before needing rebuilt than carbureted engines

Bigger engines generally last longer than smaller engine when the engine is in the same type/size configured vehicle.


Inline 6 cylinder engines are more balanced when running than inline 4 or v8 engines. Means they are a smoother running engine, they dont shake as much. v12 are a super smooth engine, they all seem to sound the same when they are started....

An inline 6 engine, in a usual configuration, is balanced in first order and second order vibrations.

The dt466 was first built in 1974. Pretty much all the weak points of the engine have been "fixed". in the middle 1990's the engine became the dt466E the "E" meaning the injectors are now electric triggered and powered , in part by a high pressure oil.

Diesel engines in the USA went electric because of needing to meet emissions standards set by the government.

MY OPINION is that the international dt466, cummins 8.3, Ford brazil 7.8, and detroit diesel 6-71, along with some euro diesels that are not common in the usa are pretty much equal. Different but equal.

after 250,000 miles in a school bus, most of these engines are near the end of life and should be considered close to needing rebuilt. 250,000 miles of stop and go 25mph to 45 mph driving is about the same as 1.2 million highway miles, if you figure a 5 to 1 ratio of highway miles to intown miles. You can drive an hour on the highway and never touch the brakes or slow down or speed up or turn the steering wheel more than a five degrees. No way you are going to do that in town. In town driving results in much more wear per mile.

I have a small bus and the cummins 5.9. international dt360, ford brazil 6.6 are all pretty much equal in my eyes. I KNOW that I will have to pull the engine out of the bus to make any block repairs while I own it. A dt360 would have been a better choice in that regards. BUT, I am hot rodding my engine and I have larger knowledge base to pull from in regards to more power out of the cummins 5.9

I am a fan of the mechanical injection systems. They are more tolerant of fuel quality and engine oil condition and faults found in other parts of the systems. I chose a mechanical engine for that reason. My intention is to be able to drive the bus with a total electrical failure. I also have a manual shift transmission.

William

[magnakansas]

Engines have a "sweet spot" an area of Revolutions Per Minute -RPM that the engine will have the most pulling power. The power to get up the hill is Torque. Horsepower is a number commonly used to sell cars and motorcycles. Torque wins races and sells Truck engines. Bigger engines at the same rpm will generally have more torque then smaller engines.

a cummins 8.3 can have 800 foot pound of torque at 1700 rpm at 20 psi of turbo boost pressure.

my cummins 5.9 can have 800 foot pound of torque, but it will be 2000rpm and 40 psi of turbo boost pressure.

My engine will wear out faster because it is under more stress, but can put out as much power as the bigger heavier cummins 8.3 liter engine.

Big strong heavy diesels dont have much of an operating rpm range.

ford 5 liter gasoline engine works from about 1000 rpm to about 5000 rpm
cummins 5.9 works from about 800 rpm to 2500 rpm

To keep the engine in a sweet spot it is easier to do this if the engine has more gears... big big trucks might have 15 gears to work with so that just about any speed the engine is working at it's best place for power.

racing cars have more gears too for the same reason.

street cars and busses have to meet a certain minimum level of performance and still be within the price range of "affordable" more gears is more cost.

So instead of the 10 speed transmission, there is a four speed transmission the engine some times is not at the best place in the rpm for making power. So you have to go down a gear and let the engine get into the "best" power range. IF you had a 10 speed you might be able to get best power range and keep the miles per hour the same. with the four speed you Might not be able to do that.

A six speed automatic - Allison 2000, 2500, or 3000 series transmissions give more gears to choose from an make a heavy bus easier to drive in that power spot of the engine. If you have a four speed ... going up hills and starting off from a stop can be easy, but going faster - like 65 mph might be harder or impossible up any kind of hill at all. If you make the bus easy to go 65 mph with a four speed, then going from a stop can be tough to do and going from a stop on a hill might be impossible.


I have a six speed manual transmission and I chose the gears so that I can cruise 65 mph with engine at the low end of the power range and low engine rpm, - an attempt to gain better fuel mileage - or I can go down to 5th gear AT THE SAME 65 MPH and put the engine at the big part of the power range and not have to slow down, also 5th gear is much stronger.

Some of the allison 2000 and maybe some of the allison 2500 series are 5 speeds only.

there are some older strong allisons like the 653 that are five speeds, but I do not see them very often and they are so old that parts might be a problem if they need to be rebuilt.

For big automatic transmission in medium and heavy vehicles in the usa Allisons are the most common. There are some others but they are oddball and almost impossible to find qualified people to work on them.

Spicer, clark, fuller are the names of the most common manual transmissions. Four speeds, five speeds are most common, six speed and seven speeds are found in busses and medium duty trucks/busses. Some of the big busses you might find 10 speeds... like in a Crown.

More gears means you have a better chance of keeping the engine in the most amount of power and that means a better chance of going with out having to slow down.

Please notice, I say chance, common, possible.... I dont say always, never.

Ask away at your questions.... part of why I would rather telephone.. I have to log in twice just about every time I type in the damn message. gets to be an annoyance to me ....

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by magnakansas

Engines have a "sweet spot" an area of Revolutions Per Minute -RPM that the engine will have the most pulling power. The power to get up the hill is Torque. Horsepower is a number commonly used to sell cars and motorcycles. Torque wins races and sells Truck engines. Bigger engines at the same rpm will generally have more torque then smaller engines.

a cummins 8.3 can have 800 foot pound of torque at 1700 rpm at 20 psi of turbo boost pressure.

my cummins 5.9 can have 800 foot pound of torque, but it will be 2000rpm and 40 psi of turbo boost pressure.

My engine will wear out faster because it is under more stress, but can put out as much power as the bigger heavier cummins 8.3 liter engine.

Big strong heavy diesels dont have much of an operating rpm range.

ford 5 liter gasoline engine works from about 1000 rpm to about 5000 rpm
cummins 5.9 works from about 800 rpm to 2500 rpm

To keep the engine in a sweet spot it is easier to do this if the engine has more gears... big big trucks might have 15 gears to work with so that just about any speed the engine is working at it's best place for power.

racing cars have more gears too for the same reason.

street cars and busses have to meet a certain minimum level of performance and still be within the price range of "affordable" more gears is more cost.

So instead of the 10 speed transmission, there is a four speed transmission the engine some times is not at the best place in the rpm for making power. So you have to go down a gear and let the engine get into the "best" power range. IF you had a 10 speed you might be able to get best power range and keep the miles per hour the same. with the four speed you Might not be able to do that.

A six speed automatic - Allison 2000, 2500, or 3000 series transmissions give more gears to choose from an make a heavy bus easier to drive in that power spot of the engine. If you have a four speed ... going up hills and starting off from a stop can be easy, but going faster - like 65 mph might be harder or impossible up any kind of hill at all. If you make the bus easy to go 65 mph with a four speed, then going from a stop can be tough to do and going from a stop on a hill might be impossible.


I have a six speed manual transmission and I chose the gears so that I can cruise 65 mph with engine at the low end of the power range and low engine rpm, - an attempt to gain better fuel mileage - or I can go down to 5th gear AT THE SAME 65 MPH and put the engine at the big part of the power range and not have to slow down, also 5th gear is much stronger.

Some of the allison 2000 and maybe some of the allison 2500 series are 5 speeds only.

there are some older strong allisons like the 653 that are five speeds, but I do not see them very often and they are so old that parts might be a problem if they need to be rebuilt.

For big automatic transmission in medium and heavy vehicles in the usa Allisons are the most common. There are some others but they are oddball and almost impossible to find qualified people to work on them.

Spicer, clark, fuller are the names of the most common manual transmissions. Four speeds, five speeds are most common, six speed and seven speeds are found in busses and medium duty trucks/busses. Some of the big busses you might find 10 speeds... like in a Crown.

More gears means you have a better chance of keeping the engine in the most amount of power and that means a better chance of going with out having to slow down.

Please notice, I say chance, common, possible.... I dont say always, never.

Ask away at your questions.... part of why I would rather telephone.. I have to log in twice just about every time I type in the damn message. gets to be an annoyance to me ....

Nice explanation

[laegion]

Originally Posted by averyonic

Alright, I did some searching and got nowhere, so I took a break and then came back..... and still got nowhere. But what I have learned is when it comes to International engines, the V8 is not as good as the straight 6 both because the V8s don't seem to have any with wet sleeves/replaceable sleeves/removable cylinders and the straight 6 is more balanced.

I am not fully sure what the balanced part means.


Next hang up I have is am I focusing on the wrong part? What are the other factors in engines that make one a better choice than others? Before today I just assumed more = better with engines and I was obviously wrong since the straight 6 is better than the V8.
I know that horsepower determines how much an engine can pull and/or how fast the vehicle can go, but I do not know how important that is. I've been under the assumption that a bus obviously won't be winning any races, but since busses are rated to pull the weight of all the kids at full capacity, I won't need to worry too much about the weight of what I put inside the bus. Would I need to start worrying if I wanted to tow a car?

I'm also completely lost on transmission. I have no idea what the differences between any transmissions are other than the very basic manual vs automatic and there can be more or less speeds (like a 5 speed vs 6 speed)

Wow...there is a lot of info to sift through in this post.
I'm new to this too; but the way I understand it is you want to go with the dt466 over the t444e because at the mileage that most used busses sell they are getting close to time to rebuild, it's cheaper and easier to do that with the DT466 because like stated earlier it can be done with the engine still in the bus. Also the DT466 has been around a lot longer and is a lot more popular and so is easier to get parts for, and it's been through lots of revisions since 1974 and had been basically perfected by the 90's, so that either the DT466(mechanical fuel injection) and DT466E(electronic fuel injection) from the early 90's up to about 2002 (mechanical was discontinued in '97) are some of the most reliable medium duty diesel bus/truck engines ever produced.

However if you are looking at an 8 window that's going to be hard to find (I couldn't find one, but I ended up going with a bigger bus in the end anyway)...so the best next option from what I've been told is the Cummins 5.9 which would be much easier to find in a mid sized bus. It's not rebuildable in frame but they are known to be very reliable motors, they are an inline 6, and they are very popular (especially in Dodge trucks) so parts are easily available and so are mechanics who are familiar with them.

Also, here's a great article about the DT466 history and why it's so good.
https://www.dieselworldmag.com/diese...es/the-legend/

It's worth noting that if you search for "history of t444e" no one cares enough to write an article about them....

Lots of info out there about the 5.9 Cummins as well.
https://blog.duramaxtuner.com/blog/t...e-5.9l-cummins

I didn't mention the 8.3 cummins because it's rare in any bus from what I understand so not likely to come in a mid-size.

Transmissions is a whole other matter...I've yet to get into that myself. All I know so far is that if it's an auto, you want an Allison 3000 model?

I'm still learning myself, so if I'm wrong, please don't anyone hesitate to correct me.

[djdalfaro]

DT466s do come up in short buses. (2) 8 window and (1) 6 window P-Pumped DT466s just sold last week on purplewave.com, and half a dozen P-Pumped DT466s from LA just sold on govdeals.com. the ones from LA are higher milage up to about 300k. Idk I you can search for completed auctions on there to get a price.

I myself bought a DT408 (the lil sister of the DT466) in a 7 window, and there are others in here with similar shorties.

[Simplicity]

I have no idea if there's anything more about engines that I can add to this thread. All the posters, especially Magna, have poured their brains out. The real trick is compiling and organizing all this information into something coherent and useful.

Since this is something I'm pretty good at, I'll share how I'd go about that. Hopefully, it will help the OP.

1) Copy and paste every post from here into your word processor.

2) Start at the top, and whatever that subject matter is, make a Heading to start consolidating all things related to that subject. If you need to make sub headings, do so.

3) Continue going down through the writings and cutting and pasting information under the proper heading / sub heading.

4) After all the writings are under the proper heading / sub heading, start to organize the writings under each heading / sub heading, delete duplicate information, re-write for clarity, etc..

By the time you're done, you'll have a clear, concise and detailed reference document.

Per the Tranny, I didn't go through the miles of information in this thread to see if anyone had responded to that subject.

If so, do the same thing with the tranny writing as suggested with the engine writings.

If they haven't, my suggestion is to first watch some youtube videos on transmissions so you have a basic understanding of the difference between a manual (you shift) and automatic, and a mechanical and electronic (computer controlled) transmission.

After watching the videos, search on here for transmission threads. If still confused or just wanting more info, start a thread under the drivetrain forum.

Hope this helps.