Another "Warn Engine" Light Question

[Clouse House]

Backstory - About two weeks ago I picked my bus up from an International mechanic the next town over for a full inspection/basic maintenance as I had just purchased the bus. I knew it had a power steering line leak before dropping it off so I had them replace some hoses as well.

When it happened - I was driving my bus back from the mechanic and noticed my engine temperature climbed to 190 faster than it normally does but didn't think much of it because I closed the valves to the heater before I set off.
There are two big hills between towns. Upon starting the climb of the first hill temperature started to climb and at the top of the hill, I realized this hill was way to small to cause this. I decided I'd let it coast down the other side of the hill assuming that would let it cool. It did not, the temperature did not increase but stayed constant, somewhere around 220. After continuing on level ground the temperature started to creep up again this time to around 240 and the "Warn Engine" light came on and I thought I could smell coolant so I pulled over. I shut the bus off and walked around back to open the rear panel and sure enough, it had boiled over and dumped red coolant everywhere. I called the mechanic shop and gave them a, "what the hell, you guys just approved this as road ready" and they told me they were sending out a mobile mechanic to me and that if it was something they did it would be free. While waiting for the mechanic to arrive, approximately (30 minutes had passed) I restarted the motor to check temp and it had gone down to 210 and still had the "Warn Engine" light, I again walked around back to the engine compartment and immediately noticed my radiator fan was not spinning at all. I killed the engine and continued to wait for the mobile mechanic. When he arrived he asked me what work I had done at the shop and I told him about the power steering lines and how the fan wasn't spinning. I looked at the lines for about .02 seconds and got on the phone cussing up a storm about incompetent technicians.
The lines had been misrouted and essentially the fan and reservoir had been separated from the pump and fluid cooler. He rerouted he hoses, topped off my hydraulic fluid and poured in 6 gallons of concentrated ELC. Kept their word and it was a free road side repair. He told me that the coolant levels weren't high enough to reach the coolant sensor and that I'd more than likely have the "Warn Engine" light come one, and that he did not have the equipment on hand to read the code to show me about assured me that it was for the low coolant.

What has happened since - The "Warn Engine" did stay on for the rest of the drive home, but I felt no lose of power and went up the 2nd hill at 60mph with a steady engine temp of 190 all the way home. After the backing the bus in I took my car to get some distilled water and have since added 4 gallons of water to offset the concentrate he had put in. The water level is now above the coolant level sensor and the "Warn Engine" has not gone off. I disconnected the battery to reset the system and very shorty after starting the engine the "Warn Engine" came back on. Coolant/Oil levels are good. Oil pressure is good. Coolant temp is good. I feel no loss in power whatsoever on a drive.

Does anyone have a way to read the code without a scan tool? I've read about a push button that will make the "Warn Engine" blink a code at you but I don't believe the bus is equipped with that. I found the J1939 connector next to the drivers compartment and it has a hole around the right size below it, I'm assuming that would be for the button, but I found no button hanging under the dash and although there are a lot of unused connections under the dash I don't know how many or what color wires would be for the button to tell if that may be the wires for it.
I've also read about a trick with cruise control buttons but I do not have cruise control to activate that either.
I ordered a Nexiq Link 2 USB device off of an admittedly sketchy Chinese website for $160 a couple weeks ago but who knows when that will arrive as it says it still has not shipped yet.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated. Anything from how to get access to the codes or troubleshooting for things to check that may cause the code.

[cadillackid]

getting the scan tool on it is the best however the free version of servicemaxx will not work with Maxxforce (it covers only non Maxxforce engines).. the shop really should have gone back anbd got their tool.. it could be any number of things.. but getting a maxxforce up to 240 is pretty rough on it .. since your coolant level stayed up for the rest of your trip you likely got lucky and didnt hurt the engine, I did think though for some reason if you trigger a tattle-tale that the code has to be cleared with a scan tool..



maybe the tool from the chinese site will have come with cracked software you can use to read the code on the maxxforce..

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

maybe the tool from the chinese site will have come with cracked software you can use to read the code on the maxxforce..

It is supposed to come with a variety of different unlocked software, when it comes in and after I test it, I plan to make a post dedicated to it with either a "This is amazing" or "Stay away" type message.
For International/Navistar it says it comes with Diamond Logic Builder, ServiceMaxx, Intune, and Master Diagnostic.

I did however find a cracked copy of NED on an Indian website for 5000 rupees. Which I think comes to just about $60. Assuming the tool actually works I will purchase the cracked NED as well. (Definitely installing on a backup hard drive)

I was just hoping someone would have ideas that I could look into now rather than having to wait on sketchy products that may or may not arrive.

Also I'll be the guinea pig for others that can't afford $2000 for tools and software.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Clouse House

It is supposed to come with a variety of different unlocked software, when it comes in and after I test it, I plan to make a post dedicated to it with either a "This is amazing" or "Stay away" type message.
For International/Navistar it says it comes with Diamond Logic Builder, ServiceMaxx, Intune, and Master Diagnostic.

I did however find a cracked copy of NED on an Indian website for 5000 rupees. Which I think comes to just about $60. Assuming the tool actually works I will purchase the cracked NED as well. (Definitely installing on a backup hard drive)

I was just hoping someone would have ideas that I could look into now rather than having to wait on sketchy products that may or may not arrive.

Also I'll be the guinea pig for others that can't afford $2000 for tools and software.

DLB should read it.. and if they have the de-coded servicemaxx then it will..

[Clouse House]

So first I'd like to say that the hardware works. I connected it to my computer and bus and ran a module detection test and it seemed to give me the results I was expecting. Whether or not it is a true "Nexiq" or not I'm not sure. Looks the same as photos online, even says "Nexiq" on it. But it is extremely light and the plastic feels thin/brittle in hand. Not being able to compare it to another device, I can't say for sure if it is legitimate. But it seems to work.

That being said, it did not come with ServiceMaxx as it said it would. It did come with Diamond Logic, Intune, and Master Diagnostic. Although the file for Diamond Logic only came with program files and uninstall application and not an install application or actual runnable application so I haven't been able to get it to work and am rather stumped. Maybe I should download the free copy of ServiceMaxx then replace the program files? Might try that tonight.

But in any case I'm going to start looking for a cheap copy of NED as well, I can't find the one from last week for some reason. I should have saved the URL.

[Truthseeker4449]

I recommend getting a Norgon clone. I have one and we took it apart and found all name brand chips inside of it. Feels like the real deal, perhaps it actually is.

I normally recommend a website called carsoftdiag as they have a lot of cracked heavy duty software. I've had great success with their CAT ET with a password generator. The catch is they remote install the software so I especially recommend a dedicated computer for that software and that software alone to be safe. Unfortunately when I just went to go get a link, the website seems have been affected by the Russian sanctions. Probably could still get in with a VPN or some other service that changes your IP location.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

I recommend getting a Norgon clone. I have one and we took it apart and found all name brand chips inside of it. Feels like the real deal, perhaps it actually is.

I normally recommend a website called carsoftdiag as they have a lot of cracked heavy duty software. I've had great success with their CAT ET with a password generator. The catch is they remote install the software so I especially recommend a dedicated computer for that software and that software alone to be safe. Unfortunately when I just went to go get a link, the website seems have been affected by the Russian sanctions. Probably could still get in with a VPN or some other service that changes your IP location.

more than likely EPA coming after them or their users.. the EPA is getting relentless in their attacks these days.. facebook posts of people rolling coal at car shows even ionly to have the EPA inspect their truck, find a tuner, and hand them a $50,000 fine.. dont pay it, tey take your house, your truck, your bank account and make you homeless.. some of these sites have some US ties.. so they hide pretty good .. while the old versions we are after are pre-emission a lot of people are using the newer versions to run export engine files so they can delete the trucks.. Cat ET and IH Maxxforce can easily be deleted by some of these programs.. and the EPA has its little nose in there

[Truthseeker4449]

Good point. That site did have resources to do that. Then comes the fun part when you have to explain the EPA why you have this dealer level software with extra quirks. It's definitely hosted by a Russian web service tho which probably makes chasing more difficult.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

Good point. That site did have resources to do that. Then comes the fun part when you have to explain the EPA why you have this dealer level software with extra quirks. It's definitely hosted by a Russian web service tho which probably makes chasing more difficult.

the dealer level software itself doiesnt do deletes.. you have to obtain the export off-road engine calibration files.. in essence alot of american engines.. IH, CAT and others were / are sold to foreign countires many of whuch dont have emission requirements for off-road equipments like backhoes, cranes, diggers.. these machines didnt run DPF and many not even EGR.. even the US dealers never had access to those engine files.. but with mnost of the dealer level tools you can load any engine file onto any ECM.. it wasnt until much later that they started sending different ECM's for off road / on road so the code was completely different.. pretty much after Maxxforce was gone anyway..


once the EPA wasnt netting any more revenue from catching commercial trucks (many states DOT inspection checks the full operation of emission equipment).. they started in on companies that make deletes for consumer level trucks.. once they shut most of the big ones of those down they are going after the individuals themselves..


thus why guys like Bill hewitt (powerstroke specialties) can sell rebuilt-salvage title trucks with pre emissions fresh engines and transmissions for 35k a piece..



but really nowadays rather than risk the EPA and such.. just buy a brand new truck.. it may cost up gront, however the new diesel trucks have gotten really reliable and make all kinds of power stock.. no reason to delete and tune them like there was in 08 / 09 when trucks had paltry power and emission controls broke all the time.



or of course hang onto the pre emissions equipment and rebuild the body / frame as needed.. fortunately for the ford, IH 6.0 / 7.3 communities there were a zillion of these short blocks made for everything from pickups to busses to box trucks.. rarely ever do i see a VT365 or a T444E get crushed with a bus.. same with the 466E.. lots of those blocks around still.. even with the EPA trying to get schools to turn in their old busses, many still arent doing it.. for 10K or less i can buy a High Quality reman T444E, ready to fly, intake to oilpan and everything in between.. drop it in and go for another 300k.. whats not to love..

[Clouse House]

Some of us just want copies of the dealer files so we can work on our own vehicles. If you own something you should own the software that goes along with it. Even my washing machine has diagnostic software built in that the owner can use.
That being said, I finally got a cheap copy of NED @ level 3. Turns out injector 4 isn't firing. Not sure if that was related to the overheat or if it just happened to go out at the same time.

Any advice on how to get some working room in an RE to get the valve cover off? Seems pretty tight in there.
And does anyone happen to know a place I can get them for less than $250? I was leaning toward replacing them all until I saw that price tag.

[Truthseeker4449]

$250 is a steal for an injector nowadays, bordering in questionably dirt cheap. The Cummins 6.7l and L9 are the modern bus workhorses and injectors for them are easily over $1200 for each. I've done 2 sets at work so far and usually find I'm replacing the rail, quills, and lines to keep dirt and rust out of the extremely sensitive high pressure system. So I think the last L9 cost the company I work for around $10,000 in parts, plus about 3 days of labor.

Diesel engines are not cheap to maintain, especially ones built in the last 15 years.

IIRC when I applied to a job at an International bus dealership and was touring the shop, I found they would remove the "floor" in the side access doors (which are already pitifully small) and slide in on a mechanics stool. I did not get the job so I can't advise beyond that.

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

$250 is a steal for an injector nowadays, bordering in questionably dirt cheap. The Cummins 6.7l and L9 are the modern bus workhorses and injectors for them are easily over $1200 for each. I've done 2 sets at work so far and usually find I'm replacing the rail, quills, and lines to keep dirt and rust out of the extremely sensitive high pressure system. So I think the last L9 cost the company I work for around $10,000 in parts, plus about 3 days of labor.

Diesel engines are not cheap to maintain, especially ones built in the last 15 years.

IIRC when I applied to a job at an International bus dealership and was touring the shop, I found they would remove the "floor" in the side access doors (which are already pitifully small) and slide in on a mechanics stool. I did not get the job so I can't advise beyond that.

Maybe I will replace all six then. So far it looks like the easiest way to do it is through the turbo access hatch. I'd rather get in there and replace everything I can before I build my bed over it.

[Truthseeker4449]

Originally Posted by Clouse House

Maybe I will replace all six then. So far it looks like the easiest way to do it is through the turbo access hatch. I'd rather get in there and replace everything I can before I build my bed over it.

If you do have an access hatch from inside the bus, please, please, please for the sake of everyone who ever has to work on the bus again, including your future self, do not permanently block it off. Engine issues happen, better to plan around needing to get to that access hatch instead of building a complex structure on top of it that can't be disassembled later.

Your future self will thank you, or cuss you out while you struggle to get to those bolts that would've been a lot easier (or otherwise impossible) to get at if you planned a way to get back in.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by Clouse House

Any advice on how to get some working room in an RE to get the valve cover off? Seems pretty tight in there.

The floor sides will fold up to get in there a little easier, but getting the valve cover off from that angle still requires 2 sets of hands and is an absolute PITA.

The easiest way is to yank the radiator out the back first. More work overall, but opens up access through the rear panel to be able to get at stuff.

Also, for safety sakes you should engage the red "engine stop" switch in the engine compartment whenever you're in there. Just don't forget to disengage it when done or you'll waste half an hour wondering why your bus won't start the next day (not that I'm speaking from experience.... repeatedly )

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449

If you do have an access hatch from inside the bus, please, please, please for the sake of everyone who ever has to work on the bus again, including your future self, do not permanently block it off. Engine issues happen, better to plan around needing to get to that access hatch instead of building a complex structure on top of it that can't be disassembled later.

Your future self will thank you, or cuss you out while you struggle to get to those bolts that would've been a lot easier (or otherwise impossible) to get at if you planned a way to get back in.

I do plan on making the bed on top of the access hatch, but not screwing/bolting the bed itself down. It will hopefully be on a hinge that will give access to the hatch.

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

The floor sides will fold up to get in there a little easier, but getting the valve cover off from that angle still requires 2 sets of hands and is an absolute PITA.

The easiest way is to yank the radiator out the back first. More work overall, but opens up access through the rear panel to be able to get at stuff.

Also, for safety sakes you should engage the red "engine stop" switch in the engine compartment whenever you're in there. Just don't forget to disengage it when done or you'll waste half an hour wondering why your bus won't start the next day (not that I'm speaking from experience.... repeatedly )

I think you may be envisioning a different bus. The radiator on my bus is on the passenger side. I'm not sure what "floor sides" you're talking about, do you have a photo? Maybe it's something I can move that I did not know moved. The Carrier AC system is what blocks my engine from the rear. A lot of square tubing to build up a frame to mount the AC compressors on. The AC compressors are not mounted to my engine but instead this frame that makes it difficult to get to the top of the engine.

And the red "engine stop" switch has already made me do that once. I had the bus for less than three days, and though my kids had flipped some switches in the driver's area that stopped the bus from starting and gave me a bunch of warning lights. But no, just me flipping one switch in the back of the bus.

[Dbacks2k4]

Originally Posted by Clouse House

I think you may be envisioning a different bus. The radiator on my bus is on the passenger side. I'm not sure what "floor sides" you're talking about, do you have a photo? Maybe it's something I can move that I did not know moved. The Carrier AC system is what blocks my engine from the rear. A lot of square tubing to build up a frame to mount the AC compressors on. The AC compressors are not mounted to my engine but instead this frame that makes it difficult to get to the top of the engine.

And the red "engine stop" switch has already made me do that once. I had the bus for less than three days, and though my kids had flipped some switches in the driver's area that stopped the bus from starting and gave me a bunch of warning lights. But no, just me flipping one switch in the back of the bus.

Yep - I see now you have the 2008 with the Maxxforce. I was describing the pre-2008s... International redesigned those with the 2008 model. Sorry for the added confusion! Ha ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets stumped by the red engine kill switch

On the older ones like I mine there's an access door on each side. When you open that up, there's a little floor that folds up to allow you to "walk inside" the engine compartment. In front of the back hatch along that perforated screen is the radiator on this design.

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by Dbacks2k4

Yep - I see now you have the 2008 with the Maxxforce. I was describing the pre-2008s... International redesigned those with the 2008 model. Sorry for the added confusion! Ha ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets stumped by the red engine kill switch

On the older ones like I mine there's an access door on each side. When you open that up, there's a little floor that folds up to allow you to "walk inside" the engine compartment. In front of the back hatch along that perforated screen is the radiator on this design.

I see what you mean, I have the driver side door and can step inside, to get to that side of the engine. The passenger side is completely blocked by the radiator and intercooler. The rear does give me some access if I maneuver around the square tubing holding up the AC but I have to hold my head sidewise to see anything as it is a very tight fit thanks to the tubing. And finally at the front there is a 8" by 16" opening (maybe, I haven't actually measured it) that I believe is called the "turbo access hatch" that is probably my best bet for removing the valve cover.

[Miles O Roads]

I think if you remove the charge pipes you can climb in the back on the pass side of it if your are flexible. If it is a dual compressor ac setup facing forward the setup is heavy as he11. But looks like there is enough room to pull cover off.

[Clouse House]

Originally Posted by Miles O Roads

I think if you remove the charge pipes you can climb in the back on the pass side of it if your are flexible. If it is a dual compressor ac setup facing forward the setup is heavy as he11. But looks like there is enough room to pull cover off.

If I take off the cover shown in your photo above the hoops I actually get great access. Little hard to reach the bolts on the far side but I should be able to get those from the rear of the bus. Of course, if those hoops were removable that would be a great help, but they look welded in.



I haven't started working on it yet due to my son's birthday being this previous week, so I put a stop on all bus stuff to spend time with him. But I should be able to tackle it, at least more on the diagnostic part, this coming week.