Best way to add power to t444e

[cadillackid]

dayton wheels are fine.. I have 22.5's on mine they are single piece tubeless and use standard tires.. my rims were wide enough to take a standard 11R22.5 tire.. (this is on my DEV bus)..



allison generally rates a drop dead driveshaft speed of 4000 RPM.. however i dont like them anyplace close to that.. any little imbalance or pinion angle mismatch etc results in a lot more vibration and possible bearing stress the faster you spin it.



with a 1:1 transmission of course the fastest you spin it is your engine speed.. probably a little less with an AT545 since it tends to always have a bit of TC slip..



the other thing about some of these busses with crazy low rears like 7.17 is the pinion gear is small.. not a lot of tooth contact with the ring gear at any given time.



I ran the hell out of my Superior driving it home from oregon.. the max safe RPM on a 392 is 3600-3800 and i ran her at 3400 the whole way... which meant my driveshaft speed was there too.. while it mad the trip i broke the rear end shortly after.. it was a 7.17 (now a 4.7, boy did it climb the rockies and cascades like a Boss though.. well until i got the AT540 up to 350+ degrees.. OOPS.. I definitely had a littlew driveshaft vibe.. noit terribke but was there.. when i had the shafts balances, the shop said they werent too far off but at 3500 RPM it doesnt take much to create a resonance..



7.17 is about the lowest ratio ive ever seen built.. they were common in local route busses used in really hilly areas.. and in north carolina (where school busses were maxxed out at 45 and activity busses maxxed at 50, limited mechanically on purpose so governer removal was impossible)...

[RolesvilleMarina]

Not to hijack but wonder where I am at on the driveshaft? I hear no weirdness

I have a 4.78 rear end
to my knowledge my OD is .74

but I also have the wee tires on a vista

I set my cruise at 64 and 2k revs on the motor

[cadillackid]

easy take engine RPM / OD ratio..



so 2000 engine RPM divide by 0.74


2000 / 0.74 = 2700 or so.. no worries there..



2600 / 0.74 = 3513


allison recommends 4000 - 4500 depending on the application as max..

those looking to unlock 6th gear on their late models..



2600 / 0.64 = 4062


so you can see you are spining it quick if all is redlined.. for someone with a 4.78 likely not gona drive that fast.. but for someone with a 7.17 they are pushing the max limits when 6th is unlocked..



if you send the driveshaft set to a racing shop or have a nice aluminum lightweight racing set made that ios perfectly balanced then who cares.. but if you got a spinning brake drum that may be somewhat worn.. an old school bus where the pinion angle isnt likely perfect anymore and the shaft couldve rusted some into imbalance, not to mention they all need to be phased just right and carrier bearings lined just right..



thus its easier just to build so you dont spin your driveshaft that fast..

[RolesvilleMarina]

An Update:

I still say sell the bus, but I dunno where we are with that

Anyway found out we have a 5:11 rear end according to IH line ticket.


Also Chris, in reading on the MT643 thread as well as this one it got me to thinking.

There seems to be suddenly a lot of interest in Transmission swapping popping up. To start with simply for the T444E owners if you remember my A-2000 came with "adapters" from my TCM that clicked right up to my 4 plugs the AT545 used to go to.

We have the Pinouts for allison ECM. If you, or a contact you knew could make these "kits" then 99 and higher T444E's could pretty easily do an upgrade, and you mention that stand alone TPS box... could you (not literally you as I know you are busy) make a stand alone "kit" for the older IH buses that don't have J139?

I'm out of my league here, but I thought the best person to ask out loud if such a "kit" could be produced and if it was worthwhile?

I don't know if the tuner program, plus the IH program in tandem could be used to help achieve this?

again rambling

[cadillackid]

there are companies that sell "kits" for allison swaps.. they have been popular amongst the cummins guys for a long time.. Dodge had REAL issues wit htheir transmissions used in the cummins trucks of the 90s / early 00's so the dodge guys swapped in allison 1000s (one they started coming available on the aftermarket)...


creating a kit for school busses as a business idea would be short lived as the last AT545 was sold for the 03 model year so the number of AT545 equipped busses being sold off will dwindle even more as years go on.. when I got my bus back in 2015 not too many allison 2000s were on the market.. nowe theres lot of used busses with them already..



the best method to me is people buy a bus with what they want on it and not cheap-out or get oogley eyed over the first bus they see..



for me trans swaps, engine hotrodding, etc is all in fun.. my busses whole they have served practical purposes are essentially toys for me.. I dont rely on them (covid excluded) for my liviliehood.. with covid it could be said the DEV bus has been my lifeblood or at l;east kept me from going suicidal from isolation at home.



those that are living in their busses have a different skin in the game.. doing a trans swap during the build phase is great but after you move in its a tough thing to do.. thus siggested to buy the bus that has the power and transmission you need / desire..



as far as the interest in trans swaps, with busses being poplar and more of them out there.. the pool of people doing builds is much larger, many new members comking on here have serious mechanical skills.. so reading a thread and then saying "i can do that too!" is more in the scope and realm of someone who has turned wrenches before.. we probably should have some type of forum section dedicated to these kinds opf upgrades where people can see for themselves different methods and tools required....


my allison 1000 swap differed greatly from rolesville's in the methods we went about doing it.. both ended up with the same result, a swapped transmission that works great..



my MT643 swap is different than the ne being done now as it was on a mechanical pre-1994 DT engine.. Turf's AT1545 swap was different yet being on a cummins and being a complete custom application..


all are different all work in the end... great info for those looking to do it

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Turf's AT1545 swap was different yet being on a cummins and being a complete custom application..

I was biting my nails on that one

I agree that most buses now are already upgraded.

I was referring to a good amount of skoolies with older buses.

I trust your judgement, it's just a shame that an easy stand alone "kit" couldn't be done cheaply and easily to help them

[DaHogwartsExpress]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

there is a thread on here about it. the manufacturer, power Hungry Performance is releasing a product called Orion for tuning up the Gen-2 (97-03(04 for T444E)) navistar engines.



this is great news as they will also be releasing at some point the ability to write complete custom tunes as well with their minotaur product. which means things like Bigger injectors, big turbos, like the powerstroke guys do will be a reality on the navistar side. that elusive 500HP / 1000 ft lb school bus might become a reality for an experienced engine builder and the right parts.. !
PHP is a well regarded manufacturer on the Powerstroke 7.3 / 6.0 forums and groups.. of course the T444E is where the Ford 7.3 came from so there is lots of history and knowledge already present for the tunes behind this product.



im looking forward to it!
-Christopher

Bump

Any update?

[cadillackid]

the orion is out and has been out and it works FANTASTIC!! I love it.. it can be mild to wild and many things in between..



use at your own risk if you have an AT545 transmission.. because you will probably break it.. but the engine will love it..



things ive found with mine are INCREASED MPG as my trans can upshift and not have to wind out the engine hard all the time..


my driveability is better since im not shifting all the time..


pure fun on higher power levels..



*DO* install a pyro gauge.. esp if your rear gears are Tall (lower NUMBERS).. as the EGT will run up if you even begin to lug the engine at all on a high power setting.



the Orion can handle things like big injectors and big turbo very well


I have stock turbo but have bigger injectors installed it does a nice job over the stock tune of a good fuel curve.



the Orion also lets you change all the other parameters that you would need Servicemaxx to do.. so it eliminates the need for you to buy a nexiq if you just want it for changing gearing, trans type (for transd swaps), tire sizes, etc..



-Christopher

[DaHogwartsExpress]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the orion is out and has been out and it works FANTASTIC!! I love it.. it can be mild to wild and many things in between..



use at your own risk if you have an AT545 transmission.. because you will probably break it.. but the engine will love it..



things ive found with mine are INCREASED MPG as my trans can upshift and not have to wind out the engine hard all the time..


my driveability is better since im not shifting all the time..


pure fun on higher power levels..



*DO* install a pyro gauge.. esp if your rear gears are Tall (lower NUMBERS).. as the EGT will run up if you even begin to lug the engine at all on a high power setting.



the Orion can handle things like big injectors and big turbo very well


I have stock turbo but have bigger injectors installed it does a nice job over the stock tune of a good fuel curve.



the Orion also lets you change all the other parameters that you would need Servicemaxx to do.. so it eliminates the need for you to buy a nexiq if you just want it for changing gearing, trans type (for transd swaps), tire sizes, etc..



-Christopher

I have 1999 Thomas 72 Passenger with T444e and AT545. This is the bus that I'm converting into the super short bus. It will be getting shrunk down from 11 windows to two, so a big reduction in weight.

Per your advice, I plan to switch out the AT545 with an Allison 2000, as the overall trans length is 4 inches shorter than an MT643. For driveshaft since it'll be so short and the steep angle, use a CV-style shaft as opposed to a U-joint type driveshaft.

In some other threads, you said you've successfully tuned a T444e up to 250hp? I want as much power and torque as possible. No practical reason, just to have fun.

So my question and reason for bumping this thread, is it possible to reliably get the T444e above 250hp? You seemed to hint at it from your Orion comments. If so, do I need to look at another tranny option to pair it with it? The Allison 2000 caps out at 300hp.

Or, for the amount of money I'd spend for the above configuration and my desire for as much power/torque as possible, would it be better to spend a little extra and go for another engine and tranny combo to look at?

I'd love to hit 500hp+ and 1000+ for torque.

[syntaxterror]

Hi Christopher

What modifications Have you done so far? When looking for parts what would the ones to get Super Duty parts? Stuff like down pipes, Injectors,Hpop or e fuel kits. What power level are you at now?

[cadillackid]

500/1000 on a stock 7.3? I wouldnt risk it..


better be sure its forged rods.. and id want it studded and with ceramic coated pistons. for the fuel and boost youd need to run you'll also need to drop your compression quite a bit which is going to make street deiveability and ease of cold starts rough..

im guessim at that 325-350 range cranked on level 7 .. but my limitation is gears.. my rear gears are way too tall. so my RPM rise isnt fast enough to keep from running the EGT off the scale.. 325-350 is pretty safe (although id say pushing a PMR engine.. then again debating PMR vs forged is like debating ford vs chevy vs mopar).. personally I like forged rods..





allison is really conservative on their ratings.. that said i definitely wouldnt push a used allison past the labelled rating.. a fresh even stock one you have a pretty good chancewith it 15% above the rating..



the earlier allison 1000/2000 had an issue with slipping in 5th on higher torque / HP applications.. the C2/C3 were sometimes the culprit.. shifting from 4th to 5th under high throttle and then expecting lockup to hold on the stock converter was a tall order..



modern versions of the allison 1000/2000 fixed this internally.. (6 speeds were better).. aftermarket builders put in upgrades and kits in the 6 speeds also..



pleus in the factory, SEM (now called shiftsense) came out which is where the trans computer will command the engine to back off on the power while it shifts.. basically an advanced way of the method any sensible driver does driving a stick shift.. (a good stick driver's clutch will last decades)...


the 444E doesnt support it.. I have a TCM with SEM loaded onto it.. designed for a Maxxfroce 7 ..I never did find a way to get the 444 to respond.. I messed around with J1939 Aux throttle but the ECM wouldnt respond in a way that was useful..



if you beat on your allison 1k/2k too hard you'll know it.. it will tell you!
you can also feel the shifts "slide".. allisons dont slide.. they dont shift hard but they definitely dont take their time when bringing on a clutch..


1-2 is about the slowest shift.. and its the safest.. the final drive gear is low.. so the likiliehood of burning up a clutch in 1-2 is really low..