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10-02-2022, 11:09 AM
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#81
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Fixing the problem update
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10-06-2022, 05:56 PM
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#82
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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I'm buffing out the cylinder walls and waiting for the JB Weld to set up and expect to be back on the road directly.
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10-06-2022, 06:09 PM
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#83
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Central Alabama
Posts: 543
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC/2000
Engine: 5.9 Cummins 12-valve
Rated Cap: 1
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Oh yeah! Another 50k for sure.
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10-06-2022, 06:19 PM
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#84
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: East TN
Posts: 300
Year: 1999
Chassis: International
Engine: T444E
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Holy hell! What did you find?
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10-06-2022, 07:17 PM
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#85
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverdude0075
Holy hell! What did you find?
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lol, I'll get the pan down manana and start a parts list.
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10-06-2022, 07:48 PM
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#86
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,830
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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holy crap!! busted wrist pin? or bad injector ran the EGT off thge scale and burbed the piston?
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10-06-2022, 08:20 PM
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#87
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid
holy crap!! busted wrist pin? or bad injector ran the EGT off thge scale and burbed the piston?
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My guess is the latter. I'm looking for one with the cast number I need that can ship asap.
Anybody see anything about this one that would chase you off?
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10-06-2022, 08:27 PM
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#88
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,830
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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how does the cylinder wall look? there are service sleeves made BUT the engne has to come out and get Bored over and the sleeve put in.. you *CAN* buy oversize pistons for those too if you do have to get it bored.. with a diesel its tough to just ring and piston it and get good compression if the cylinder is scored up.. these unfortunately are not In-frame rebuild engines.. meaning there arent removable liners in the cylinders that can be replaced..
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10-06-2022, 08:47 PM
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#89
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid
how does the cylinder wall look? there are service sleeves made BUT the engine has to come out and get Bored over and the sleeve put in.. you *CAN* buy oversize pistons for those too if you do have to get it bored.. with a diesel its tough to just ring and piston it and get good compression if the cylinder is scored up.. these unfortunately are not In-frame rebuild engines.. meaning there aren't removable liners in the cylinders that can be replaced..
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the cylinder wall has been worked over pretty good.
looking into in-frame repair options and up for suggestions.
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10-06-2022, 09:06 PM
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#90
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2018
Location: topeka kansas
Posts: 1,778
Year: 1954
Coachwork: wayne
Chassis: old f500- new 2005 f-450
Engine: cummins 12 valve
Rated Cap: 20? five rows of 4?
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Wow, bummer
That is a ton of work…..
William
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10-06-2022, 10:09 PM
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#91
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,830
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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that used piston doesnt look too bad, you do want to keep engine serial numbers in mind as the rods changed somewhere around year 2000 to "PMR" instead of forged.. I believe th weight of ther PMR is deifferent than the forged so you want to make sure all 8 are the same ...
there are a couple scenerios here. obviously from the point of view I have which is having built quite a few engines over the years.. ideally that engione would come out and be completely reconditioned with bored cylinders and service sleeves if needed ..
the other scenerio is that you just need it to run to drive it someplace.. a few hundred, a couple thousand miles to someplace where you can properly tear it down..
ill assume this case..
you can go at the cylinder with a Hone stone set .. yoiu can actually take a couple thousandths out of a cylinder wall as long as you hone then stop.. hone then stop.. Honing is a machine process so yes there is metal removed and thus metal particles fly that need addressed.. Honing also has the potential to put a cylinder out-of round if not done carefully thus why you dont want to do too much of it..
the main concept here would not be to clean the cylinder up but to deburr it so the rings dont get damaged and break.. I would use new rings standard size..
will it run and not burn oil? hard to say.. it likely wont be great and may have a decent bit of blow-by but it shouldnt break apart..
sleeving a cylinder requires boring it proper and thats not something you can do in-frame..
bearings.. look ast a couple caps and see if theres metal damage.. if you replace em.. the LPOP will be a concern mainly because it picks up unfiltered pan oil and then sends it to be filtered.. obviously the HPOP asnd rest of injectors are a concern however the other cylinders do run so my guess is the injectors didnt clog up unless the one you had rebuilt is representative of the others. . but my own personal thought is that injector just started dumping fuel into the cylinder which is not a super uncommon thing with those.. usually you get some warning like smoke but apparently not in this case.. unless the wrist pin just all out failed and broke.. injector being bad just a sign of age perhaps..
your head can be worked by a shop to at least clean it up and check the valves.. theres no way to deck the block in frame so you'll have to clean it up by hand to fit a new head gasket..
I dont really like to re-use head bolts but in your case in this scenerio you are likely fine to re-use them.. the 6.0's had much more issues with headbolt failures.. the 7.3's had more headbolts and thus much better pressure across the head..
theres gonna be metal thats a fact.. best we can do is flush it out.. lots of brake cleaner spreayed every place you can see.. esp in the lifters / cam area because you cant replace the cam bearings..
oil cooler / filter can be pulled off and cleaned out
once back together you fill it with cheap oil.. maybe even a bit thinner grade like a 10W30 or 10W40.. you are only going to run it 10-20 minutes.. then that oil gets drained and filter replaced.. and then you put good oil in it and send it..
will it blow up? i dont think so.. I cant say it will run great with low blowby but it should stay together as long as the cylinbder walls are clear enough not to smash up the new rings. (yes id use new rings)..
I Rarely have seen mechanical failures like this on one of these engines.. lifters yes, HPOPs yes, broken flexplates yes, valve springs yes.. even lost retainers and dropped valves.. but rarely ever a bottom end failure.. unless the engine was highly tuned and then lugged.. ive seen broken pistons then but this is a stock motor.
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10-07-2022, 07:20 AM
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#92
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,707
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigmatic Nomadics
looking into in-frame repair options and up for suggestions.
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There aren't any unfortunately. At least none with a measurable amount of longevity to them. You can throw a used piston in there, but I'd be surprised if it ran well afterwards, and was a long term fix. It's different engine time. I don't feel this is worth doing a full rebuild or going the reman route. Used engines should be available.
I'm not sure where you're currently at, but there's a truck salvage auction in michigan in a few weeks, that has several t444e's on the block.
But, without a shop to do it in, I'm not sure how you'll get this done.
Maybe it's time to look at a different bus.
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10-07-2022, 11:35 AM
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#93
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Quote:
that used piston doesnt look too bad, you do want to keep engine serial numbers in mind as the rods changed somewhere around year 2000 to "PMR" instead of forged.. I believe th weight of ther PMR is deifferent than the forged so you want to make sure all 8 are the same
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It's apparent, CadillackKid, that you've been down in dark places that folks don't prefer to talk about in polite society.
Indeed, the sample piston is before powdered rods were a thing in that motor.
Also, you're mentioning many (and more) best practices protocols for clearing out the infection while I'm in there swapping parts.
These repairs will be within the tolerances of prudence for a first time roadside, deep engine mechanic with a fast dwindling budget, and nothing more. No micrometers or well advised calibrators will be harmed in the making of these repairs. (Although I might hit the head with some dye and developer for the fifty bucks it will cost me)
That said, I am currently weighing my options and could really use some links or page references in the manuals you guys (Pirate Dave and PowerBrapp) sent over regarding liner replacement. I'm afraid the damage to the cylinder walls is way past anything measured in three digits after the decimal point.
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10-07-2022, 12:55 PM
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#94
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Quote:
There aren't any unfortunately. At least none with a measurable amount of longevity to them. You can throw a used piston in there, but I'd be surprised if it ran well afterwards, and was a long term fix. It's different engine time. I don't feel this is worth doing a full rebuild or going the reman route. Used engines should be available.
I'm not sure where you're currently at, but there's a truck salvage auction in michigan in a few weeks, that has several t444e's on the block.
But, without a shop to do it in, I'm not sure how you'll get this done.
Maybe it's time to look at a different bus.
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'
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10-07-2022, 03:38 PM
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#95
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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I found a block. More soon.
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10-07-2022, 06:43 PM
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#96
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,830
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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Super on finding a block. Service sleeves are usually a third party engine shop repair (dealers most times just throw engines away rather than fix em) you won’t find any factory procedure for liners.. this is not a wet sleeve engine however sleeves are sold and machine shops can bore cylinders to fit them . I can’t think of any way to bore e a cylinder roadside..
By the way the first engine I ever rebuilt I never had a bore gauge or a micrometer.. I blew a head gasket and steamed a piston .. I simply got new pistons and. Homes the cylinders .. did send the head out and ran a tap through the head bolt holes to clean em up.. the car ran fine, it was a diesel.. burned a quart of oil every 1500 miles.. I did plastigauge the bearings .. I didn’t have any monster damage to the cylinders.. few scratches fro nowhere a ring broke but the honing cleaned that up decent.
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10-10-2022, 07:32 AM
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#97
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: East TN
Posts: 300
Year: 1999
Chassis: International
Engine: T444E
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Since you seem to want to keep the bus, I wouldn’t fool with that engine or trying to rebuild (on the side of the road). Call AAABus out of Phoenix. They get those engines all the time. Good guys. Explain your situation and see what they can do for you.
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10-10-2022, 04:39 PM
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#98
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Freedom Field, New Mexico
Posts: 459
Year: 1998
Coachwork: International
Chassis: Amtrans
Engine: 444E
Rated Cap: 84 pas
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Once years ago I had an international school bus with a gasoline engine that threw a rod in Wyoming. I had told but no money. I removed the offending piston rod cap and pushed the piston up in the cylinder so that it would not strike the crank. I cleaned the cylinder throughly and used high temp epoxy to keep I there. I did the same to the opposing piston. I put it back together. Voila, I had a six cylinder engine that got me all the way to Jamestown New York.
Just a thought. Another is what we did this year. Bought another bus just like the one we live in from the same seller to keep as a parts donor in the case of engine or transmission failure. Got the whole bus for fourteen hundred bucks from the Gilbert az school system and drove it home to New Mexico.
If you were to disable the opposing fuel injector, how smooth would the engine run? How far is it to home? Could you make it home then look at better options like a donor bus or truck?
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10-16-2022, 08:58 AM
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#99
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USA/BCS Mexico
Posts: 45
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas Vista
Chassis: 3600
Engine: T444E 175HP +AT545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock-N-Ruth
Once years ago I had an international school bus with a gasoline engine that threw a rod in Wyoming. I had told but no money. I removed the offending piston rod cap and pushed the piston up in the cylinder so that it would not strike the crank. I cleaned the cylinder throughly and used high temp epoxy to keep I there. I did the same to the opposing piston. I put it back together. Voila, I had a six cylinder engine that got me all the way to Jamestown New York.
Just a thought. Another is what we did this year. Bought another bus just like the one we live in from the same seller to keep as a parts donor in the case of engine or transmission failure. Got the whole bus for fourteen hundred bucks from the Gilbert az school system and drove it home to New Mexico.
If you were to disable the opposing fuel injector, how smooth would the engine run? How far is it to home? Could you make it home then look at better options like a donor bus or truck?
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Great call. I'm doing similar to get 500 miles but removing the gear in #4 and leaving #3 be. I'm showing my steps on my youtube channel (Same as my username here).
I'll either be a success story or cautionary tale.
I'm usually the latter.
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10-16-2022, 10:07 AM
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#100
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2018
Location: topeka kansas
Posts: 1,778
Year: 1954
Coachwork: wayne
Chassis: old f500- new 2005 f-450
Engine: cummins 12 valve
Rated Cap: 20? five rows of 4?
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the connecting rod
Cut off the big end of the rod and bolt that back on the crank throw.
remove the pushrods for that cylinder.
A friend years ago had a piston failure. buick nailhead 425
piston broke, swinging rod broke off the oil pump pick up tube.
dropped the oil pan. scooped out the broken parts. removed the oil pump and
parts. cut off the big end with a hacksaw and bolted that back on. took off the
valve cover removed the two pushrods from the dead cylinder. over filled the
crankcase with motor oil. Drove the 1966 ford pickup towing a 64 buick
wildcat with broken piston. The drive was three hours on seven cylinders,
and splash oiling towing the other broken car on a trailer.
william
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