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Old 09-11-2021, 07:01 PM   #21
Bus Nut
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome View Post
mmoore is correct. 12.3V is low for a battery in the forst place. That could mean it is dropping below 10V when cranking. Do you have daytime running lights? If you turn the key to "on" and the lights come on, that could drop the voltage down to 10V also, less when cranking.


If the voltage goes up when when revving, and is always low, that looks more and more like the battery. But it could very well be a bad alternator also, that is not charging said battery fully.



However, catallackid is also on the right path. Gotta find your ECM fuses and check them. Also find the battery-to-ECM cable at the battery and clean its connector. Several buses I have read about on this forum, and mine included, have a "main" ECM fuse box that is mounted on the outer-side of the frame rail behind the front driver's side tire. These are supposed to be water-tight, but they commonly leak at the seals and due to corrosion. Mine was solid, but had 1/4" of water in the bottom, and all the fuses and wire-ends were completely green with corrosive muck.


I would take that battery and put it on a reliable charger (plug into the wall at home kinda charger) and then see what you get. Any better? Maybe a little, but still not there....check the fuses and corrosion
I officially ruled out the battery, starter and alternator for now as they seem to test or seem fine.

As for this main ecm fuse box, is it literally on the frame rail? I don't see it. Maybe that's how your bus is set up? I have a fuse door on the outside of the bus above the battery compartment and another one inside under the windshield and all the fuses look good. I posted pics of the two.

I'm trying to check wires between the the ignition, relay switches and batteries, as I'm leaning towards a wiring issue/disconnect

Thanks
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Old 09-11-2021, 07:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
As for this main ecm fuse box, is it literally on the frame rail? I don't see it. Maybe that's how your bus is set up?

On my bus, yes, it is literally on the frame rail. Seems I remember an International having the same thing. It also has the fuses in the "common fuse box" location, like you show. I **think** it goes:


battery -> fuse-box on frame -> key -> fuses in "common box" -> ECM



or something similar.


how did you determine the battery and alternator are good? (just trying to help more)
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:12 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome View Post
On my bus, yes, it is literally on the frame rail. Seems I remember an International having the same thing. It also has the fuses in the "common fuse box" location, like you show. I **think** it goes:


battery -> fuse-box on frame -> key -> fuses in "common box" -> ECM



or something similar.


how did you determine the battery and alternator are good? (just trying to help more)
Thanks for the responses so far.

"battery -> fuse-box on frame -> key -> fuses in "common box" -> ECM"

Sorry but I don't know what you were explaining with this, excuse my ignorance.

Well the batteries read good on the multimeter in series and both disconnected form each other and power. Also, when turning the starter using a jumper wire it turns consistently and doesn't sound like batteries are draining. Also, all lights work.

I figure the alternator is good otherwise the batteries would have been drained

Thanks
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:21 AM   #24
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Did you follow cadillackid's suggestion of checking the seperate ecm fuse? A lot of internationals have the ecm powered by seperate fused wires ran directly to the battery.

Did you check your's for those and did you check them? They'd be 14 gauge wires at most IIRC.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
Did you follow cadillackid's suggestion of checking the seperate ecm fuse? A lot of internationals have the ecm powered by seperate fused wires ran directly to the battery.

Did you check your's for those and did you check them? They'd be 14 gauge wires at most IIRC.
I actually thought I responded to him yesterday asking him some questions about what he was referring to. I forgot tobhit the submit button in another tab

I'll do so now. But while I have your attention, the guy that helped me the other day said the ecm is good because power is getting to the 3 relay switches. Sounds about right? Just not to the ignition
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:05 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
no warning light means you either likely lost a fise or fusibkle link to the computer.. check your battery cables.. the computer gets BAT power on mine from separate wires going to the Batteries (smaller ones).. and there are 2 ECM fuses in the chassis panel.. DIAG and ECM BAT must be good or the engine wont turn over or start.. remember turning-over is NOT starting.. turning over is the engine spinning with the starter,, Starting up or firing is when it starts..



so I dont know what you have when you jump the starter.. it should turn over but not start if you jump the starter and the computer is dead..
Im assuming DIAG refers to diagnose? Or diagram? I'm sure BAT means battery. What do you mean by "DIAG must be good"?

Is there a way to test the computer(ecm?) directly to make sure it'snot dead? Can I test through those wires you mentioned, the smaller ones? I have them as well.

I posted pics of the fuse panels I see but not sure if what you're referring to.

*The guy that helps me said the ecm is good because the relay switches are getting power. I hope that's the case

Thanks
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Old 09-12-2021, 03:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adic27 View Post
Im assuming DIAG refers to diagnose? Or diagram? I'm sure BAT means battery. What do you mean by "DIAG must be good"?

Is there a way to test the computer(ecm?) directly to make sure it'snot dead? Can I test through those wires you mentioned, the smaller ones? I have them as well.

I posted pics of the fuse panels I see but not sure if what you're referring to.
He was referring to the DIAG fuse that should be in the interior panel. There is a fuse in the battery compartment that will cause a no start (40 amp I think).

Fuse Box Cover.png

The video indicated to me that the battery is not an issue. You seem to have a fuel delivery problem (like you had before) or an ecm/sensor problem.

Did you ever change out the fuel filters? There is also a screen just before the primer pump that can clog-up.

You can check stored ecm codes by the momentary button beside the diagnostic port.

Since you were jumping at the relay does the key work?
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Old 09-12-2021, 08:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by BamaBus View Post
He was referring to the DIAG fuse that should be in the interior panel. There is a fuse in the battery compartment that will cause a no start (40 amp I think).

Attachment 61227

The video indicated to me that the battery is not an issue. You seem to have a fuel delivery problem (like you had before) or an ecm/sensor problem.

Did you ever change out the fuel filters? There is also a screen just before the primer pump that can clog-up.

You can check stored ecm codes by the momentary button beside the diagnostic port.

Since you were jumping at the relay does the key work?

Thanks for posting this image, as the panel cover of mine has no indication of what the fuses go to! But, they all seemed good visually.

Yes, I changed the fuel filter* a while ago. Hope there's not a second one I don't know about. I doubt it. I'll check for that clogged screen. But do you the it being clogged would keep the starter from turning the engin? I honestly think it's an electrical/wiring issue but I'm far from an expert.

When you say next to the "momentary button by the diagnostic port are you referring to the DIAG fuse slot? I'm not at the bus right now and just wanna clarify. For when I head over.

And no the key does not trigger the starter. The only way is the jumper wire on the relay. I wish I could bypass something to make it start so I could drive it home 😭

Thanks for clearing up a few things!
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Old 09-12-2021, 11:28 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adic27 View Post
Thanks for posting this image, as the panel cover of mine has no indication of what the fuses go to! But, they all seemed good visually.

Yes, I changed the fuel filter* a while ago. Hope there's not a second one I don't know about. I doubt it. I'll check for that clogged screen. But do you the it being clogged would keep the starter from turning the engin? I honestly think it's an electrical/wiring issue but I'm far from an expert.

When you say next to the "momentary button by the diagnostic port are you referring to the DIAG fuse slot? I'm not at the bus right now and just wanna clarify. For when I head over.

And no the key does not trigger the starter. The only way is the jumper wire on the relay. I wish I could bypass something to make it start so I could drive it home 😭

Thanks for clearing up a few things!
If your key is not triggering the starter then you may need to replace the ignition switch. AMAZON has one that I have used on more than one International chassis. Find it local if possible. It's an easy thing to replace.

Jumping wires on the starter relay is probably not going to power up the ecm like the switch should. I'm sure someone will clarify if I'm wrong.

The small button is normally located next to the connection that is used to connect equipment to the ecm. The ecm port is round, maybe black and should have 6 holes in the center. Mostly located just under the dash to the right of the driver. The only issue will be that if the ignition switch is not working, then you may not be able access the ecm. The first step is to hold down the small button while turning the ignition to the on position. Then you will get flashes from the "warn eng" (warn with an N not M). 'EGES175-1 Diagnostic/Troubleshooting' has the exact steps but I don't have a link.

You may know this but a visual inspection of the fuses would, at a minimum, require you to remove the fuses. I say this only because the dust on the interior fuses do not not seem to be disturbed. Also be sure to check the fuse at the battery and let us know the results.

You don't have glow plugs.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BamaBus View Post
If your key is not triggering the starter then you may need to replace the ignition switch. AMAZON has one that I have used on more than one International chassis. Find it local if possible. It's an easy thing to replace.

Jumping wires on the starter relay is probably not going to power up the ecm like the switch should. I'm sure someone will clarify if I'm wrong.

The small button is normally located next to the connection that is used to connect equipment to the ecm. The ecm port is round, maybe black and should have 6 holes in the center. Mostly located just under the dash to the right of the driver. The only issue will be that if the ignition switch is not working, then you may not be able access the ecm. The first step is to hold down the small button while turning the ignition to the on position. Then you will get flashes from the "warn eng" (warn with an N not M). 'EGES175-1 Diagnostic/Troubleshooting' has the exact steps but I don't have a link.

You may know this but a visual inspection of the fuses would, at a minimum, require you to remove the fuses. I say this only because the dust on the interior fuses do not not seem to be disturbed. Also be sure to check the fuse at the battery and let us know the results.

You don't have glow plugs.
If you can, would you mind posting an image of this small button? Also, do you think this could hook up to my bus?

ScanGauge SGDFFP J1939 & J1708 Vehicle Monitor (Frustration Free) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00VX2NP4W...ing=UTF8&psc=1

If so, would it be able to tell me what's going on with the ecm, ignition, etc.? I'm not near my bus to where I can check for a port/hookup right now and won't be until tomorrow.

Yea it's pretty dusty in there. I took each one out and wiped the dust off to make sure the metal strip was in one piece. Gonna double check with a multimeter. As for the fuse you mention at the battery, are you talking about the fuses above in its separate department? (I post an image earlier) If so, I checked those.

I came to the conclusion I had no glow plugs

Thanks
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:15 PM   #31
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It's not in a compartment. It's in with the batteries in the battery box.

This isn't my image, but refer to this to get an idea.

What's labeled as idm and ecm fuses in the picture is what I want you to check.
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
It's not in a compartment. It's in with the batteries in the battery box.

This isn't my image, but refer to this to get an idea.

What's labeled as idm and ecm fuses in the picture is what I want you to check.
Ok thanks. I will check tomorrow morning. On another note, do you have any knowledge about this device?..

ScanGauge SGDFFP J1939 & J1708 Vehicle Monitor (Frustration Free) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00VX2NP4W...ing=UTF8&psc=1

Was thinking about getting one if it'll hook up to my bus. I have to check

Thanks again!
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:14 PM   #33
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Not me personally. Others on here can chime in on scan gauges, bluefires, etc.

So long as your device connects via the 6 pin j1708 deutsche connector, it should be able to connect to your bus. That is, unless someone upgraded it to the 9 pin j1939 connector.

But being a 98 IH, yours is likely using j1708.
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:15 PM   #34
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I tried to do the hyperlink thing but it's not working, sorry. Might be doing it wrong
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:12 PM   #35
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I have that exact ScanGauge in my 96 AmTran (International). It works great, just like the OBDII version is awesome in my Ford 7.3.


When I opened the link there was a box that said "last purchased....." so it's the exact same one I bought. Mine came with BOTH connectors for the heavy duty vehicles.
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Old 09-14-2021, 06:45 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adic27 View Post
If you can, would you mind posting an image of this small button? Also, do you think this could hook up to my bus?

If so, would it be able to tell me what's going on with the ecm, ignition, etc.? I'm not near my bus to where I can check for a port/hookup right now and won't be until tomorrow.

Gonna double check with a multimeter. As for the fuse you mention at the battery, are you talking about the fuses above in its separate department?

Thanks
The button is below the 6 pin connector.
6-pin.png
See page 61 of EGES 175-1 for instructions on pulling the codes https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yqlcj5g9r...NTMISCOPES.zip


I have a BlueFire but you really don't need it or a ScanGauge right away. The good thing about ScanGauge D is that you can get it local.



Since you have a multimeter you can check the ignition switch as in this video
Unscrew the trim ring and disconnect the wiring in the back. The wiring may just be loose so wiggle it and try the key again.

Post a picture like Booyah of your battery setup. Also maybe a video of the dash as you turn on the key and crank.
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBus View Post
The button is below the 6 pin connector.
Attachment 61276
See page 61 of EGES 175-1 for instructions on pulling the codes https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yqlcj5g9r...NTMISCOPES.zip


I have a BlueFire but you really don't need it or a ScanGauge right away. The good thing about ScanGauge D is that you can get it local.



Since you have a multimeter you can check the ignition switch as in this video
Unscrew the trim ring and disconnect the wiring in the back. The wiring may just be loose so wiggle it and try the key again.

Post a picture like Booyah of your battery setup. Also maybe a video of the dash as you turn on the key and crank.
I did the continuity test and it checked out fine, I think. Although, sometimes it didn't sound off. Ultimately it seemed fine. The ground one isn't supposed to sound off at all isnit? Because it didn't.

I found the 6 pin connector. It had a cover on it so I've been overlooking it. Also has a button right below it as mentioned.

Thanks a lot!
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:30 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
Not me personally. Others on here can chime in on scan gauges, bluefires, etc.

So long as your device connects via the 6 pin j1708 deutsche connector, it should be able to connect to your bus. That is, unless someone upgraded it to the 9 pin j1939 connector.

But being a 98 IH, yours is likely using j1708.
I located the fuse hidden inside the wire casing and yep, the 40 amp fuse inside was blown. Is it likely this little guy is keeping the engine from starting? If so, I'm about to do a multiple backflip right in to the Grand Canyon! I'd be happy tho, if replacing it fixes this. I'm going to get a new fuse today. Thanks for showing me this. Think someone pointed it out earlier but I didn't think the fuse would be hidden in the connector

This doesn't at all sound like my transmission over heated does it?

Thanks again!
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:35 PM   #39
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when you turn the key to ON, your WARN light should go on momentarily and then go off. if that doesnt happen then the ECM is not fully powering up.



the ECM also controls putting power to the relay allows the starter to engage..



if the ECM BAT circuit has no power then the Power relay will not engage when you turn on the key.. this makes the ECM fail to Boot up.



the starter enable relay is engaged with the key. if the WARN light comes on when you go to key ON.. and then either stays on or goes out after a few seconds then your ECM has completed the boot process.



at this point if you jumped your starter the bus would probably run..



if the WARN light never came on and stayed on or went off then jumping the starter wont make the bus run as the computer is still DOA



the starter relay is engaged by the key and the ECM. the ECM looks for any interlocks.. the Neutral safety, if the bus has a vandallock it has to be unlocked, otherwise turning the key will result in nothing.



those relays can have POWER but still not work. the Power comes from the bus electrical system.. to engage one of those relays the computer applies a ground to one side of the coil. if the other side of the coil has 12 volts then the relay will click on if its good.

there are 2 leads on each relay that may have power even when the relays are off..

1 being the Coil +12VDC lead and the other being the high side of the switched Load.



so taking a meter and measuring the 4 wires to ground of each relay hole will almost always result in "Power to the relay.." but its determining which pins on each relay have power relative to ground and when they have it that is important.
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Old 09-15-2021, 01:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adic27 View Post
I'm going to get a new fuse today.
Buy more than one!
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