DT466E HP Ratings and Differences

[cadillackid]

the 'E' versions are completely different animals from their mechanical ancestors.. its like saying lions and siamese are both "cats"..



the E versions have pretty much different everything except maybe the block.. the cams, heads, cranks, injection system and methods, timing gear system, pulley system, flywheel, flexplate all different on the 'E' vs the mechanicals..


-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the 'E' versions are completely different animals from their mechanical ancestors.. its like saying lions and siamese are both "cats"..



the E versions have pretty much different everything except maybe the block.. the cams, heads, cranks, injection system and methods, timing gear system, pulley system, flywheel, flexplate all different on the 'E' vs the mechanicals..


-Christopher

Yeah, for sure. But the way the earlier mechanical ones were divided into regular and high torque and the parts differences are a decent idicator of how the E may be set up.

[nevrenufhp]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the 'E' versions are completely different animals from their mechanical ancestors.. its like saying lions and siamese are both "cats"..



the E versions have pretty much different everything except maybe the block.. the cams, heads, cranks, injection system and methods, timing gear system, pulley system, flywheel, flexplate all different on the 'E' vs the mechanicals..

Yes and no. The later mechanical 466, the NGD, shares most parts with the early 466E(95-04). So much, that you can swap the head, timing cover, and pump to convert to mechanical injection.
As far as the E is concerned, there's small differences between them. As the hp goes up, the compression ratio goes down. If you're looking at hot rodding a 466E, it's going to get pretty expensive pretty fast. Certainly will be money ahead if you convert to mechanical. You gain the potential for crazy power and the reliability goes way up. Within reason, of course. You cant be pushing 600hp, and not have driveability or reliability issues. Start with a full size radiator, if you have the split setup that most came with.
Actual differences of the engines:
210hp and below, is the base line.
215hp HT, has different pistons, bigger injectors.
230-250hp, different pistons and injectors.
Get in to the 530, and it's a few more differences. There is one rating, I think it's the later years of the HT series that has a longer stroke crank. Otherwise, the 466 and 530 have the same crank, and yes, you can get a 530 in frame kit for a 466. The high hp models even had steel top pistons for more high temp protection.
The ECM run has quite a few differences. Most places I have dealt with can't seem to break past IH's algorithms to unleash the real power. There are a few out there that will reflash to the higher ratings. If you shop for a used one, stick with the same year you have.

[ermracing]

Originally Posted by siloguy

Here is what I actually did with my 1999 Bluebird 466E 42 pass bus. When I bought it the speed was governed at 60 mph tops. I was driving school bus part time and talked to the bus mechanic about options to make it go faster. It may have helped that he and I get along great together, but he said he could probably get it to do what I wanted. He came to my place after work with his laptop and plugged it into the port on my bus. He checked for any fault codes, then went through a list of parameters that he could change on the engine. My engine was rated for 190 hp, I think. He asked how much power do you want? I believe it went up in about 20 hp. increments to 250 hp, just by picking what you want. He cautioned me that the 545 trans I have makes a lot of heat under load because of the Torque converter having no lockup feature, and more power going in will make more heat. I decided to leave the box ticked at 190 hp as I already get to max trans temp unless I lift on the throttle on long mountain climbs. But we reset the speed governor to 75 mph, and my bus does that easily except for climbing long steep hills, where I may pull down to 60 mph because of power limits, but I have had to slow down to 55 in extreme cases to keep my trans temp and engine temp acceptable on hot days like yesterday, where we were above 90 out. If I had a bigger radiator and trans cooler, or a more modern trans that didn't also double as an underfloor heater, I would not hesitate to turn the wick up on the 466 as my 0-60 times are not very quick. I would love another gear in the trans so I am not spending hours at 2500 rpm on the interstates getting 7.5 mpg, but the interesting thing is I only got 7.5 mpg on the interstates when I was speed governed at 60! Before you hook your kid's laptop up to your bus and try to change stuff around, note that the mechanic had an official IH program installed on his laptop, but I believe he said it is now free to download for older buses like mine.

We have a similar engine in our 2003 conventional special needs 11-window bus - 195hp, 520 torque. It was speed limited at 55mph when we bought it. The local International dealer, who I am friends with, removed the limit when they inspected the bus. I think they talked about the ability to bump up the power, but I probably wasn't paying too much attention at the time since I was relieved it cost 'only' $800 to get the sticker..... Maybe I'll stop in and chat with them again over the Christmas break.

[IMG][/IMG]

[FamilyCircus]

I have a 215hp 620tq high torque engine. I has a shorter stroke than the regular torque engines, the bore is the same as the 530. It has the BI code injectors and the GT3776 turbo.

My local Rush International dealer will turn it up to 230hp and 660tq.

I am going to use a Holset HX35W turbo not because its better but because my Garrett died and the Holset was available at a very good price and it was brand new, bolts right up and a very close match in air flow. I also have an HX40W just in case I want more boost.

A company called Swamps Diesel in Florida is going to rebuild the injectors and install the BN code injector nozzles. The difference is the nozzle hole diameters, the BI is .175 Micron with 6 holes and the BN is .195 Micron with 6 holes, slight increase.

Im adding the International 4900/4700 full width 4 row radiator and charge air cooler.

And you may ask why go through all the trouble, its so I can pull the new gear set. Going from a 4.44 to a 3.91 but staying with the 5 speed MD3060 since PCM Performance wants 800 bucks to enable the 6th gear and I can do the gear change for 400.

Im toying with installing a PacBrake 4" exhaust brake that I have kicking around, im not 100% sold on the idea yet.

[cadillackid]

this is interesting stuff family.. so in effect the HO version of the DT466 isnt really a '466' anymore..



I would vote for the trans unlock vs the gear change.. more gears is king in varying terrain... you can still retain the ability for good starts from a stop.. and in lower gears waiting for turbo spool.. if you go to a bigger turbo, yoyur spool time will be even longer...



lets talk turbos and the navistar computer..



on my 444E, the difference between the standard and HO versions is the turbo and computer programming. (on some of them its just the computer)..



the GT37 is a slightly smaller but quick spooling turbo... they can fuel heavier in the lower RPM range without over-fueling or running the EGTs up as the boost rises pretty quickly.. in my case if i installed a GT37 it would be waste-gated at 19 PSI (begin to open).


I am running a GTP38 non wastegated.. it is a good flowing turbo and has 1.0 A/R on the turbine and compressor sides.. my boost is a little low in the lower RPMs.. so if i load the engine down heavily in mid ranges, the EGTs build quickly. and my boost is off spec.. at 1300 RPM SPEC calls for 11 OSI and im at about 7 or 8.



run my RPMs up and my bigger turbo kicks up a bit more and easily reaches the 19 that is called for at 2300 RPM... run the boost higher up to 19.5-20. and I can watch the computer begin to De-fuel to hold the Boost in that 19-19.5 range..



my EGTs when rrunning it out at max rating are right about 1200. which on that engione is OK.. in fact on a 444E you can run 1300-1400 for short pulls.. but i never get there since it begins defueling.



my Injecters are stock originals. and im at 9500 hours.. so they are tired.. I have nmew stage 1's to put in.. but am wondering if there will really be any gains as the computer just may de-fuel it..



in your case id pop a pyro in before you start messing with turbos and bigger injectors.. since you are pulling your turbo off anyway its a great time to drill the manifold right before it goes into the turbo .. a bit tight in there but am thinking if your 466 is like my 360 you can get a right angle drill in there.. my 360 is still bone stock so I havent put a pyro on it yet.



I would also get set up to watch the computer so you can see how it handles various fueling situations now.. turn up the wastegate a little and see ifthe computer lets you have any more boost or if it shoots you down.. a boost fooler might let the computer stay in it harder longer if it de-fuels like mine does..



I realize the 466E and the 444E are different animals, but the computer controls are much the same for both engines..



-Christopher

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by FamilyCircus

I have a 215hp 620tq high torque engine. I has a shorter stroke than the regular torque engines, the bore is the same as the 530. It has the BI code injectors and the GT3776 turbo.

My local Rush International dealer will turn it up to 230hp and 660tq.

I am going to use a Holset HX35W turbo not because its better but because my Garrett died and the Holset was available at a very good price and it was brand new, bolts right up and a very close match in air flow. I also have an HX40W just in case I want more boost.

A company called Swamps Diesel in Florida is going to rebuild the injectors and install the BN code injector nozzles. The difference is the nozzle hole diameters, the BI is .175 Micron with 6 holes and the BN is .195 Micron with 6 holes, slight increase.

Im adding the International 4900/4700 full width 4 row radiator and charge air cooler.

And you may ask why go through all the trouble, its so I can pull the new gear set. Going from a 4.44 to a 3.91 but staying with the 5 speed MD3060 since PCM Performance wants 800 bucks to enable the 6th gear and I can do the gear change for 400.

Im toying with installing a PacBrake 4" exhaust brake that I have kicking around, im not 100% sold on the idea yet.

I would use the hx40 over the hx35.

Your typical hx35 is borderline too small for a dt466. With your power upgrades it will likely be small for sure. The typical hx40 compressor should be darn near perfect.

Turbo's are a hard thing to judge because each model(hx35 for example) can have multiple different turbine and compressor sizes. Just make sure you go large enough on the compressor to keep exhaust pressure down. Most busses operate at a higher average throttle % then your typical truck so your turbo choice should reflect that.

[FamilyCircus]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

I would use the hx40 over the hx35.

Your typical hx35 is borderline too small for a dt466. With your power upgrades it will likely be small for sure. The typical hx40 compressor should be darn near perfect.

Turbo's are a hard thing to judge because each model(hx35 for example) can have multiple different turbine and compressor sizes. Just make sure you go large enough on the compressor to keep exhaust pressure down. Most busses operate at a higher average throttle % then your typical truck so your turbo choice should reflect that.

I think I will get a hold of an HX40 just in case, good points to think of.

[FamilyCircus]

What do you folks think of a Hybrid turbo, HX35 Turbine housing and HX40 Compressor housing, what do you think, it looks like they are installed on suped up ISB6.7 engines.

I just scored a used HX40 that might need a rebuild. I might be able to make a hybrid out of the two, the HX35 is brand new so a good bearing/bushing housing and exhaust housing.

Just thinking out loud.

I also have the stock GT3776, perhaps get it rebuilt with a different compressor wheel.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by FamilyCircus

What do you folks think of a Hybrid turbo, HX35 Turbine housing and HX40 Compressor housing, what do you think, it looks like they are installed on suped up ISB6.7 engines.

I just scored a used HX40 that might need a rebuild. I might be able to make a hybrid out of the two, the HX35 is brand new so a good bearing/bushing housing and exhaust housing.

Just thinking out loud.

I also have the stock GT3776, perhaps get it rebuilt with a different compressor wheel.

I believe the GT37s rotate opposite of the GTP38s so common on the 444E.. the folks at dieselsite, however menrtioned they might have a wickedwheel for GT37. youd have to measure your wheel and see..



again too much boost on the high end and navistar de-fuels. I need to look up the boost tests in the book foir the variants of the 466E. . that way you can get an idea of what the computer is shooting for bone stock..

-Christopher

[Tango]

Use'em both...go compound!

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Tango

Use'em both...go compound!

the darn computer will just cut off the fuel!! it uses boost as a feedback for how much its fueling...

[FamilyCircus]

Oh, I like that idea, Compound turbos, like a Maxxforce, nevermind, I want this to be reliable. Single turbo, Im going to get the HX40 instead of the HX35.

[FamilyCircus]

Cadillac, I was thinking about your comment about gears being king. I just got the gears for cheap, Ill install them and see how it goes, if in fact I need more gears, perhaps I can do the unlock as well, I dont know, just thinking. The 3.91 will also slow down the drive line for any given road speed, which is a plus too, less vibration.

[Booyah45828]

You need to look at wheel and housing sizes before making a call. There are different options for both the hx40 and hx35 that will give you undesirable results if chosen wrong.

If you can find a stock hx40 off an 8.3 cummins that would work.

Is your hx35 genuine holset or a chinese turbo?

You don't need compounds for your scenario.

[Tango]

Compounds would be just for fun (and the extra kick).

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Tango

Compounds would be just for fun (and the extra kick).

Lol, we have different definitions of fun I guess.

I've never enjoyed the fab work for making compound setups. Then again, they were all in tight areas and were a headache to get them to work right and not leak. Multiple "why am I even doing this" moments.

He's at stock power levels, a single turbo sized correctly should work good.

[cadillackid]

does anyone know how much boost the stock head gaskets and bolts are good for? you cant just bl;ast boost and fuel at an engine and expect good results withouyt looking at the other hardware..



I know on the T-444E its about 35-38 PSI boost is all you are safe with... granted, stock that engine only makes about 20.. but its easy to put a wheel in the turbo and bigger injectors and push upwards of 28+ which is the max safe boost for the GTP38 turbo on them..



the HX40's obvious;y are designed for over 35 PSI continuously but is your stock engine?



-Christopher

[FamilyCircus]

Well I was able to work my way into the HX40W. Both the HX35W and HX40W are Holset, not knock off turbos. The HX40W is from a Cummins ISC8.3 and the HX35W is from a 24 valve ISB5.9.

With the bigger injectors, Navistar tune to 230hp 660tq and the bigger charge air cooler, I should be fine spooling the HX40W with my little 7.6.

I might even do a water/meth injection for the hills to keep the EGT's down as well.

[cadillackid]

I like the idea of meth injection, i'd think the HX40 wouldbe a good size for that engine.. before i'd spend the $$ on bigger injectors id play with changing the EFRC code in the engine which changes the fueling profiles, the stock injectors are good for quite a bit more than they are utilized for. the pulse width and HPOP are limited by the Engine family in the ECM.
-Christopher