Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-30-2016, 02:53 PM   #1
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,627
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Fueling in a Diesel coolant heater.

after my windy cold drive from florida to Ohio, I figured its about time I installed my supplemental diesel heater...

while parked idling my bus temperature gauge dropped all the way to 140...
I still had heat but im guessing 140 is noit too good oin the engine even though it had been run hard for many hours already at temperature..

mounting it, electrical, and coolant loops are easy... what I need help with is what the best place to get fuel for it is...

I have a DT360 so i have a negatively pressurized fuel system, which means there's no pump in the tank to push fuel out...

if I 'T' into the fuel pickup line, im guessing i'll have issues wioth sucking air when the engine is on? assuming it could theoretically suck air back through the heater? maybe a check valve in that line?

I know some have installed a completely separate tank... I dont have the skills to weld up and frame up safely, a separate tank.. i'd also be concerned that the fuel would go bad as i dont anticipate using that heater a whole bunch..

those of you that have such heaters installed on your main tanks, how did you plumb them into the fuel?

-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 03:07 PM   #2
Bus Nut
 
AlleyCat67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
Diesel fuel takes YEARS to go bad, unless you maintain a low fuel level and allow condensation in the tank to contaminate it.

If you don't anticipate using it much, I would just plumb up a small tank (5 gallons or so), above heater level to gravity feed it, and fill that up from jerry cans as needed. Most of those heaters, the ones I've looked at anyway, use only about a gallon of fuel a day, give or take, so that 5 gallon tank will keep you toasty for nearly a week.
__________________
My bus - Jasmine - External Build Website - YouTube Channel - TN/KY Meetup Group
As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he accompanied the level 60 dwarves on the Smaug the Dragon raid. Those powerlevelers probably invited him solely so he could trigger fellowship attacks for them.
AlleyCat67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 03:24 PM   #3
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 554
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
install a small auxillary tank as AllyCat says.
But then plumb in one of these $13 fuel pumps between main and the new tank.
Open a fuel cock, flip a switch and your done refilling the tank in a few minutes at most. Most of these will pump 20gph or more. Easy peasy and you won't be wearing trucker cologne in the process.
https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Electr...RNWHEHEEP46WHB
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 03:38 PM   #4
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,627
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I was hopiung to not have to use a second tank.. I dont have the skills to weld a safety-cage and attach it properly to the bus.. the transfer pump does sound like a cool idea... could even be used as emergency fuel if the pump were set up with a couple twists of valves to pump fuel back to the main..

these ideas though may solve my issues in that I could simply plump in a lift pump and place it before the T.. it would also help with my fuel drain-back issue I have where the system drops prime.. (common on DT-360).. or at the least help me find the leak that causes the drain back... and be able to easily prime when I change my filters and water separators.. its amazing how much dirt you get in a fuel filter how quickly..
-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 03:51 PM   #5
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 554
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
welding?
safety cages?
how much length of clear space you got under the bus?
6 feet of 4" pvc pipe (or equal) will hold nearly 4 gallons.
Strap it to the frame or via pipe hangers from the floor supports, etc.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 04:29 PM   #6
Bus Nut
 
AlleyCat67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleO7 View Post
welding?
safety cages?
how much length of clear space you got under the bus?
6 feet of 4" pvc pipe (or equal) will hold nearly 4 gallons.
Strap it to the frame or via pipe hangers from the floor supports, etc.
Yea, for a tank that small you don't have to mess with all that nonsense. I think I'd want something a little more substantial than a piece of PVC pipe but the idea is sound. Find an old scrap diesel generator with a good sized fuel tank and use it. Or find a fuel cell like they use in race cars (a rubber bladder inside a heavy steel box; the safety cage is already built-in). Mount that and run a filler connection to a convenient place. That option will cost but the safety factor is very good.

This one is 5 gallons and already has a pump built in, and even has a fuel gauge sender in it.
5-Gallon Aluminum Street/Drift/Strip/Racing Fuel Cell Black Gas Tank with Level Sender and Cap
__________________
My bus - Jasmine - External Build Website - YouTube Channel - TN/KY Meetup Group
As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he accompanied the level 60 dwarves on the Smaug the Dragon raid. Those powerlevelers probably invited him solely so he could trigger fellowship attacks for them.
AlleyCat67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 06:39 PM   #7
Bus Nut
 
Carytowncat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Richmond Virginia
Posts: 932
Year: 1984
Engine: 366 Big block Chevy! :) w/ Stick shift
Yuuuuup, it's gettin cold. I installed a propane fireplace and just finished welding and installing a woodstove. Want to be prepared for the coming months. Good luck, it'll come to you


Carytowncat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 07:29 PM   #8
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,627
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I like the idea of a fuel cell... definitely eliminates the need for a safety cage.. I have some room on the same side of the bus as the fuel tank.

asfor the cold, i think I'll do the install down here in florida! where its warm but the bus will be more-ready for cold travels..
-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 08:23 PM   #9
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 554
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
I like the idea of a fuel cell... definitely eliminates the need for a safety cage.. I have some room on the same side of the bus as the fuel tank.

asfor the cold, i think I'll do the install down here in florida! where its warm but the bus will be more-ready for cold travels..
-Christopher
A fuel cell is a good idea.
You could likely pickup a used one along with some plumbing (hoses) along with a 12vdc pump for cheap in Florida.
Lots of used racing parts websites.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 10:38 PM   #10
Bus Crazy
 
Elliot Naess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,281
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
Outboard boat motor tank, maybe?
__________________
Elliot
Millicent The Bus - roof raised two feet, toy-hauler tailgate.
https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/th...gate-1564.html
Elliot Naess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 12:08 AM   #11
Bus Nut
 
AlleyCat67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
Those are just plastic jerry cans, slightly different design to allow fuel to leave them to go to the engine. Only suitable for use in boats. If they make metal ones I have yet to see one.....
__________________
My bus - Jasmine - External Build Website - YouTube Channel - TN/KY Meetup Group
As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he accompanied the level 60 dwarves on the Smaug the Dragon raid. Those powerlevelers probably invited him solely so he could trigger fellowship attacks for them.
AlleyCat67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 07:21 AM   #12
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pensacola and Crystal River, FL
Posts: 554
Year: 1998
Coachwork: AmTran International
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar 7.6L
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlleyCat67 View Post
Those are just plastic jerry cans, slightly different design to allow fuel to leave them to go to the engine. Only suitable for use in boats. If they make metal ones I have yet to see one.....
You must be too young, LOL.
DoubleO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 08:25 AM   #13
Bus Nut
 
AlleyCat67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
Even when I was a kid all I ever saw was plastic ones...... I never said that metal ones don't exist, just that I have never seen one.
__________________
My bus - Jasmine - External Build Website - YouTube Channel - TN/KY Meetup Group
As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he accompanied the level 60 dwarves on the Smaug the Dragon raid. Those powerlevelers probably invited him solely so he could trigger fellowship attacks for them.
AlleyCat67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 09:47 AM   #14
Bus Crazy
 
turf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,602
Year: 1993
Coachwork: bluebird
Engine: 5.9 Cummins, Allison AT1545
Rated Cap: 2
my diesel heater came with a small tank. im sure its less than a gallon. but if you want it, i'd be happy to ship.

here is my heater, and one of those pics shows the plastic tank i never used.

Planar Heaters. Diesel Air Heater PLANAR 8DM-12 (-24)

let me know if you want it, one day i'm going to clean up and thow it away.

my diesel heater feeds directly from the bus fuel tank, so i didnt need the fuel tank.

i had to drill a hole in the top of the tank, and the kit came with a siphon tube to install in the hole.
__________________
.
Turfmobile Build Thread
turf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 10:03 AM   #15
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,627
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I was looking over my kit and it looks like it has its own fuel pump and everything.. I had thohght i just had the heater but its a whole kit..

I love turf's idea.. and I'll just install the tube to where it is up above the main fuel pickup so i cant run the bus lower than say 1/4 tank of fuel even if i forgot and left the heater on.

@turf - is your heater physically inside the bus on the floor or is it mounted underneath.. to me it looks liek these thigs are moisture resistant but not sure id want it to get splattered for hours in a rain storm..

-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 01:53 PM   #16
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 1,613
Year: 2000
Chassis: Blue Bird
Engine: ISC 8.3
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
I was looking over my kit and it looks like it has its own fuel pump and everything.. I had thohght i just had the heater but its a whole kit..
I've been kinda scratching my head and wondering through this whole thread. So far as I knew, it's standard for Webasto and Espar heaters to provide their own low-volume pump to draw from the tank and atomize fuel in the combustion chamber. All they require in the fuel tank is a dip tube. Is your heater different?
family wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 02:33 PM   #17
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
Posts: 1,678
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: B3800 Short bus
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 36
I have a friend that uses a 5 US gallon steel outboard motor tank for veggie oil in his Jetta. He has the quick connect coming through the firewall into the passengers foot area. Typically he'll fill the tank with veggie oil and keep it inside so it's warm. When he's ready to go he puts it on the floor in front of the passenger seat and with a quick connection it's back in business!

He's using one of these:
__________________
My build page: Armageddon - The Smell of Airborne Rust
jazty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 02:36 PM   #18
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,627
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the instructions are quite unclear and vague as to the install... the dip tube is not included so I have to search for and find one that I can put in.. at first I was thinking that people were sourcing fuel from the existing fuel pickup.. and the instructions talk about T'ing into an existing line coming from the tank... in most scenerios theres a lift pump that would be pushing fuel up from the tank.. on a DT-360 the ONLY fuel pump in the system is at the very end of the fuel system, meaning my complete fuel system.. filters, water separators, lines, etc are under a negative pressure... any reason for fuel to drain back into the tank wreaks havok on the prime.. (and DOES).. I have chased and chased and still havent found the source of why in Warm to Hot weather my fuel system will lose prime.. most times simply revving the engine up right after I hot start it (to about 1500 RPM) will suck fuel up faster than the system uses it so I get a stammer and stumble for a few seconds and then it'll run for hours and hours with no issues.. in more severe cases i have to get out and pump the manual pump.. then crank start run for 15 seconds.. dies.. go back pump some more.. sometimes 2 or 3 times to get it re-primed.. those cases are rare thank god.. and really rare with cooler weather.. im guessing with the very low pressure im atomizing fuel in the lines somewhere in really hot weather with the bus parked..

I started the thread because i definitely dont want to make anything worse while im still trying to chase that little issue .. and because the instructions for installing the fuel portion of the heater were confusing...

so at this point it looks like i just need to buy a dip tube, and install it above the point of the engine fuel pickup and im good to go.

ive never installed such a device before so its a learning experience..

-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:35 PM   #19
Bus Crazy
 
turf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,602
Year: 1993
Coachwork: bluebird
Engine: 5.9 Cummins, Allison AT1545
Rated Cap: 2
if i could afford an espar or webasto, i sure would have preferred one of them. they both have parts to adjust for high altitude. burning diesel at 8000ft, looks like a cheech and chong van when the heater runs.

that planar sits inside, on the metal bus floor. the mounting studs weren't long enough to sit on the wood floor. i routed out a hole in the sub floor to mount the heater flat on the metal floor.

here is the part of my build with the heater. http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f27/bo...html#post83431

i think if it were boxed in, the heater could mount underneath. the hydronic water heaters sure look like they'd be fine underneath.
__________________
.
Turfmobile Build Thread
turf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:58 PM   #20
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,627
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
thats what mine is.. I had originally gotten an espar but they sent the werong one.. the company i got it from sent me an Air heater and then said that was the only model they sold.. so I sent it back and then found a webasto brand new in the box on eBay.. and ended up paying $300 less for a coolant heater and turns out theres even a rebate from webasto on the model i got.. I wanted a coolant heater mainly because my DT-360 has no glowplugs or grid heater.. so if I forgot to plug it in or cant (parked at a hotel or power is off, etc) id be in a world of hurt in cold weather.. the webasto could pre-heat the engine for easier starts.. plus at nearly 18,000 btu it can blow enough heat on me using the existing bus heaters when im stopped taking a nap that I wont freeze...

with thew automation system im building for the bus i'll be able to integrate it into being remotely turned on as well..

-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×