Help!! Engine is a bust.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by ISAF2009

Yup engine out, moroso oil pan gasket, welded dipstick, arp studs water pump with coolant filter the whole 9 yards new turbo and all.

That makes sense and sounds like good value there !!!

[Ronnie]

Most people would notice an extreme lugging. However you can be lugging with no symtoms. Think about it it takes X amount of power to push a bus at X speed. Run the engine at 1800 versus 2600 rpms and what really is happening? The same power has to be made to get the same speed. So the bearings are taking a much larger load, the pistons are taking more side load( they are pushing down but the rod angle pushes them to the side as well) the combustion temps are higher, and that means exhaust valves, tops of pistons, rings(mostly the top one) all are taking it. Let it spin at a higher rpm and all those loads go down.



2600 rpm is actually low for these engines as it is nowhere close to coming apart at that speed. The factory sets the governor at 2600 for max life, not because at 2601 is will disintegrate. They run a lot of testing for durability and that where the govererned speed comes from, max safe speed for durability.

[cadillackid]

my DTA360 service manual actually talks about RPM.. the book is from the 80s before we had to "nanny" everyone into not destropying their stuff and suing the company..



the book says that the valves float on a DT360 at 3400 RPM. for those who dont know, valve float is essentially where the engine is running so fast that the valve springs dont have a chance to close the valves after the cam has opened them and the engine needs it iopen again.. the valvde may even bounce.. essentially at that point the engine can be damaging itself and it will run really crappy..



Navistar wrote in the service book that the factory setting on the fuel pump for max loaded RPM is 2700. and max unloaded RPM is 2900.. they were shooting for an averagew 2800 RPM redline.. they went on to say that its perfectly safe to set the pump to run the engine up to 3200 RPM unloaded .. and 3000 loaded.. for a mean RPM of 3100.. there is then a big note.. that says. 2800 RPM is designed for maximum engine life and operating range.. runjning the engine higher than that will not ruin it however life expectancy will be shortened.. something alogn the lines of what Cheese_wagon has to say...



to ronnie's point. the 2800 RPM point is what navistar built the engine to run "all day" at or continuous max..



Yes these engines run "better" at lower RPM as long as they arent lugged..



when I bore everyone to tears with my tales of transmission shifting amnd hammer on ther points of proper tuning and programming of the transmission im doing it with engine life in mind.. with a stick shioft its up to the the operator to downshift when needed.. to not be a fat-ass-lazy-ass and just punch it to the floor and hope it makes the hill before it stalls out..



with an automatic its the transmission';s task to pick the right gear.. (and also the operator to recognize that the automatic isnt doing its job and to downshift manually). the T444E LUGS VERY EASILY.. it just does.. I can take a video of it with a bad transmission tune and dshow you how easily I can labor the T444E. the computer tells me it is lugging, the EGT's spike quickly..


ive cringed more than once riding with people who bought their first diesel stick shift truck or who came from class-8 semi-driving into a diesel pickup and shift to the highest gear as early as possible..



Big rig Semi's are LONG stroke engines and to cheese-wagon point they Hate RPM's.. big rigs going down the highway at 1300-1500 RPM is a somewhat common thing on flat ground.. do that to your 444E under load and it wont last long..





back to the O.P.. how much $$$ and time is invested in youyr conversion thus far? how clean is the bus? personally id probably replce the engine.. but if the bus is already marginal (rust and wear in other areas) and you dont have a lot of time and $$$ in it then scrap it and move on.. (bus prices are also higher now with covid than they were 2 years ago)..



how much do you plan to drive? if you plan to be nomads that galavant all over ther country.. (read that as putting 100,000 miles or more on your bus over the next 5-10 years) then fix the engine.. another used bus with 200,000 miles would be a toss-up as to whether youd have engine issues in that time frame..



if you plan to just drive a couple thousand miles a year then go get another bus as a rebuilt engine wont be worth it.

[musigenesis]

I think we will never hear from OP again.

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by flattracker

I am in the middle of getting a 7.3L IDI-t engine replaced in a 93 Ford F250. I am having a mechanic do all the work. He was able to get a re-man engine from the east coast for $1650 (incl shipping) He is charging me $1100 labor for the swap.

Who's the remanufacturer? What kind of warranty? That's a helluva price regardless, most want over double that. Does it include 8 sleeves and head studs? Most 7.3 IDI's need sleeves for any kind of overbore because of the thin cylinder walls, and head studs is recommended with boost.

Upgrade to a better turbo on that while you have it out, at least a better compressor. Do a search on oilburners.net if you haven't yet or aren't a member over there.

[flattracker]

As the engine was re-manufactured by International I presume it was done correctly. It is a wrecking yard engine with a 90 day warranty.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

You know about lugging most dont.
The V8 diesels lug much easier than the online engines do.. thus the fix is to run them at higher rpm where they won’t lug.

Why do you think most heavy engines are inline bs V?
They taught whole classes back in the day on how to drive the 6V and 8V Detroit’s to avoid lugging..

This discussion is about 7.e V8, not the big class 8 in-line your drive millions of miles on.

The computer and my pyro tell me how easily the 444e lugs.. but that’s right computers are evil.. I never let it shudder the bus.. computer gives me a lower gear and more rpm and yeah it works..

Inline engine? Yep they are long stroke and hate rpm but the V8 are different.

I really didn't want this to be a flame war, but here's the deal. The T444E I transported 2800 miles, did not have cruise control. To keep it from exceeding 2200 rpm, I did 2400 of that 2800 miles with a simple pair of jeans rolled up under the accelerator as a makeshift limiter, and it worked wonders. Most of the trip was at 1800-2000. Not one bit of lugging or shuddering, even in the hills of PA on I-80 and NY on I-84. I didn't have a computer plugged in to force this or that, nor was one anywhere near the bus for this trip. So it's not as necessary as you would have everyone believe.

I'm not saying that diagnostics don't have their place, but I certainly do not believe any of these engines or transmissions need a laptop to tell it to behave. If it truly does, then I'd say that makes me a hell of a driver to run 2800 miles without one connected. Sorry, I think I speak for most folks here when I say that if it needs to be babysat with a laptop, that's a design flaw, and nothing to do with the difference between Class 7 / 8 setups. Either way, nobody wants to spend $30k converting something with mechanicals that have to be babysat with a computer. OP, sorry to hijack your thread.

[Kubla]

T444E will live all day long running at 2600 rpm, that is factory red line and IH warranted the engines for 100,000 miles with that setup, I do not think that they would have done so if it would hurt the engine, not the best speed for fuel economy but you will not hurt the engine, the bigger, older CAT 3208 had a 3000 rpm redline.

Find another bus with the same engine and swap it to yours if you have that much work in the conversion

[RolesvilleMarina]

Interesting that people always seem to think that you only have a couple choices

1. Buy a whole new bus (they've already converted)
2. Buy a reman, or reman yours to the tune of $8k+
3. Buy new, etc


why not go back on the sites and just get another bus as the T444E buses are all over the place and pretty cheap... you only need the engine anyway

you can buy a whole other bus for around $2k.. At that point harvest off what you need, and then sell all the rest and you should get a good chunk of your investment back.

The motor is heavy, but it's not a horribly complicated procedure to do the swap when you have TWO IDENTICAL BUSES side by side

you can build a gantry if you need, and a bunch of friends and some hand tools.. take lots of pics... take out the busted motor first, save the good bits (turbo, etc) and document your work..

then move to the donor and with your new found skills and courage from the first one do the Transplant Doctor

I figure it will be hard work, but not rocket science or much mystery mechanics... a basic unbolt and swap. But YOU CAN DO IT!

I did my transmission swap in this manner (a donor bus) and I moved the AT545 from my bus into the 2002 bus, and the Allison 2000 into my Vista bus. I did the work alone with hand tools, two chunks of plywood with some rope in them as sleds, and a huge ratchet strap. I had NEVER touched a bus transmission before and I was also attempting something never been done to a vista yet.

I then sold the donor bus for $200 more than I paid

you have a busted motor, but you can come out ahead with what you need, the bus you love, and some good spare parts for future, and save big

it's up to you

wishing you cheery luck
dave

ps. I also scored an air ride seat and I took the visor so the missus has a big sun visor on her side

think outside the box maybe there is a local bus with a bad trans even cheaper... be creative work the problem

[Ronnie]

Yes Really three choices here,


make more money and have it fixed
Learn how to either swap engines or rebuild

get another bus

[BeNimble]

1. pay someone to fix it.
2. learn how to fix it yourself
3. don't fix it

The creative option is convert it into a goose neck or 5th wheel trailer if the inside is already built up into what you want.

[Beirdo]

That would make one hefty trailer... almost to the point of requiring a big rig to pull it, no? I'd hate to see a pickup truck with a smaller engine than the original struggle to pull that Cool idea though.

[RolesvilleMarina]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Yes Really three choices here,


make more money and have it fixed
Learn how to either swap engines or rebuild

get another bus

Yup

my donor bus advice is more of a sub option to Engine swap

it was simply a way to save $ sourcing parts

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Beirdo

That would make one hefty trailer... almost to the point of requiring a big rig to pull it, no? I'd hate to see a pickup truck with a smaller engine than the original struggle to pull that Cool idea though.

Would it really be all that heavy? You'd remove the engine, transmission, front wheels and axle, driveshaft and rear differential, and maybe you could also remove the inside wheels in the back. You'd be left with maybe 6000 pounds plus whatever your build stuff weighs? (I might be underestimating the weight of what would be left)

[flattracker]

Good morning and happy new year!
I was curious about the "T444E" engine actually is since I had seen reference to power strokes and T444E in this thread, so I looked it up. I don't know if there are any differences between a T444E as used in a bus compared to a power stroke in a Ford F250, but I can share my experiences with a 7.3L power stroke in a Ford F250 with an E4OD and an IDI in an E350 with an E4OD.


I still own and drive a 1997 F250 with the E45OD and power stroke. It has over 400K miles on it. I bought the truck in 2010 with just over 300K miles on it. I drove that truck pulling 14K lbs and the bed full of heavy stuff, and the full size cab full of stuff for 450 miles when helping my sone move to Oregon. The trip included climbing the Siskyous to Weed, over Hwy 97 at over 5K feet. Did not have any issues with the engine pulling the load (more problems with other drivers who always took up my safe following distance with such a load). The power stroke does use a computer to operate, but that is no big deal. In fact it is a plus, as one can tune the engine by modification of the firmware that controls the engine. The powerstroke uses throttle by wire. The E4OD is controlled by a computer also.


I used to have a 1990 E350 ambulance that I used as a race van when I was flat track racing. It ultimately did not go the distance as the engine had a failure before 200K miles. While it lasted it was good. The van would go 85 mph, but not 86 mph. The IDI is strictly mechanical, the E4OD trans had it own computer back then. Since the van was an ambulance before I had it, I cannot say how many hours were on the engine. Ambulances are often left running for extended times, with crew inside, ready to go. Fire trucks are the same way, where they run for a bunch of time at a fire but may drive less than 75 miles a week.


My thoughts about computers running an engine?


Fords been running gas engines with computers for more than 30 years. They work well. You can easily get an ECM (engine control Module) for most vehicles. If one has a commercial vehicle, they probably cost more, but are probably available.


I have no problem with a strictly mechanical diesel. Both of my Crowns have mechanical only engines and transmissions. It works well.


I hope that I am not stirring up a hornets nest with these comments.

[Beirdo]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Would it really be all that heavy? You'd remove the engine, transmission, front wheels and axle, driveshaft and rear differential, and maybe you could also remove the inside wheels in the back. You'd be left with maybe 6000 pounds plus whatever your build stuff weighs? (I might be underestimating the weight of what would be left)

Hmm, true. It's an intriguing idea regardless

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by flattracker

As the engine was re-manufactured by International I presume it was done correctly. It is a wrecking yard engine with a 90 day warranty.

There's the key details.

I'd say you're buying a used engine from a wrecking yard that was reman'd at one time. IH hasn't stocked the idi in several years, so good chance it's a used reman. Regardless, 1650 is a great price for that, because used takeout engines are fetching close to 2k. But I'd be extremely surprised to find a fresh reman for less then 3k unless it's a "discontinued" unit that is on clearance, much like those reman mt643 transmissions in missouri.

I was hoping you found fresh reman engines for 1650 shipped from the east coast, because I'd be all over them if you did.

[cadillackid]

LOL if theres a fresh 444E reman for 1650 let me know I'll get one and keep it in my garage as a spare!!!



I have no idea what navistar did with the 15 year old rnginesi n their 'renewed' program like they did those 643 and 545 transmissions.. unless the engines are perhaps still stocked. ive not tried to ask about a reman engine from navistar. I hope I dont blow mine up.. however the way I tinker im sure at some point I will


ive blown up a few engines in my life

[RolesvilleMarina]

Since we are on the subject of Reman and Rebuilds

Save detonating the engine in some catastrophic way can a T444E be "rebuilt or refreshed?"

I remember reading I believe this is a non sleeved motor? I am unsure how this plays into rebuilding. Some "expert" on a FB group says 7.3 can't be rebuilt for this reason... likely bollocks, but thought I would ask anyway

Confess I know little about rebuilding engines... most of my experience has to do with repairing and whatnot things attached to said engine.. I have little experience with pistons and rings and all the things INSIDE an engine

Mine is fine now, and I care for her well

but curious

[EastCoastCB]

The 7.3 is a parent bore engine. No sleeves.