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Old 04-16-2020, 12:07 PM   #1
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Help! Fan Clutch Emergency!!!

My bus is at the mechanic and the fan clutch is shot. Ordered a used one and it arrived leaking oil.

The bus is taking up a good deal of space in his shop and has been there two weeks now.


Any advice?
Currently waiting for mechanic to call me back with more information.


I hear the fan clutches are expensive new. Anybody have any ideas? Alternatives?



Looking at the Horton fans and waiting for a sales rep to call me back.


I am considering maybe having the mechanic "weld" the fan clutch so it stays on "on", driving it back home (about 15 miles) and continuing the build while I save up for the Horton.


If the Horton (or other option) is better, I am OK with doing the above, since the bus will just be sitting around for the next few months while I work on finishing it.


Please advise!


Thank you!!!!
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:19 PM   #2
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How much will you be driving the bus after the build?

My Cat 3126 from everything I can tell came oem with an electric clutch fan.
To include warning label on the shroud...
What I've got is a direct linkage fan -- nothing to break -- I'm sure it was the "quick, cheap fix" done before my time...

There's a lot of stress on the fan so I'd be concerned with welding one. If there's enough "meat" to make a strong, balanced (these things spin pretty fast...) connection then have it welded.

The trade off to a fixed fan is higher fuel consumption to turn the fan when not needed, AND higher noise volume at higher rpm...
Would one actually hear the difference on the hwy? IDK...

If it's only 15 miles, you can probably just drive it home as is with the cabin heaters on max. Just keep an eye on your temp gauge! If it does get hot, pull over and let it cool off before finishing the drive home.
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:20 PM   #3
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The "weld" will work, but not for long. I would advise against. But to get it home and continue the build, i would risk it. I drove mine with a bad clutch fan 150 miles. Of course the head was already blown. There are certain parts i would never buy used. This is oneof those. It's way too important.
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:39 PM   #4
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I plan on driving the bus a good deal when it's done. I'll be driving it across the country, on flat land and mountains, and maybe towing a trailer with my FJC on it sometimes. I live in the high country in Arizona, but will sometimes go to the desert: that means high heat in the summer and then coming home crossing some serious mountain grades on the way up. We're at 7,000 feet. I need good, reliable parts.



I opted for used on the fan clutch as a temporary fix so I could at least drive the bus when needed, like pick up the fridge and stove, etc. This because my wife's 2009 Jeep Wrangler needed a death wobble fix for $650, Engine mounts $600, Tranny mount $140, and now the radiator is leaking , the water pump is leaking, and the engine is leaking oil. All this after the automatic transmission literally shredded itself: $2,400, and the auto door locks burned out: $400 just about two months ago. All this crap with no warranty and still owing 4K on that POS!!! POS doesn't even get taken off road or tow anything!!!


I had a 1980 CJ7 and a 97 Wrangler. Both were reliable. My 97 I sold at over 200,000 miles and that engine was still showing full compression (inline 6). And this got off roaded a LOT, towed a trailer several times 2,000+ miles back and forth across the country! Crossed same distance a bunch of times more: didn't burn oil, ac worked... Replaced manual tranny at about 180,000 miles.

I will NEVER buy another new Jeep or even one past 2006. Makes me sick!


Anyway! Sorry for the rant! It''s just really stressful because this BS happened right when I took the bus to the shop, so we're up against the wall.


I'm looking still at the Horton fan setup. Seems to be not much more than a new fan clutch, and from what I have read, a better system. So maybe I can get the mechanic to make the fan clutch solid, and just drive it home for now.


Any more advice is greatly appreciated.


And THANK YOU!
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:16 PM   #5
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Just spoke with the mechanic and he's going to make the fan a constant rotate deal so I can get the bus back home tomorrow.



At least I'll have the replacement alternator on now, which means I don't have to keep the batteries on trickle charge.



I'll have the old alternator rebuilt as a backup.


Now I can get back to working on the interior and in the meantime do some research on the best setup to cool the engine. Looking at the Horton fan setup, like I said earlier.


I'm also considering using four of the six, or maybe all six, of the fans that used to be on the AC condensers, or whatever the hell they're called, which were under the bus, as additional engine cooling fans. I'll do a separate thread on that to see what everyone thinks.
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:30 PM   #6
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cooling a 444E with electric fans is futile.. theres not enough radiator space to do it.. those A/C condensor fans are not nearly high performance enough to move the air required. those condensor fans are best off keeping your A/C cool.. ! esp being in AZ



my bus ran warm until I installed the horton clutch.. to do a factory style horton install you'll need some other pieces and ECM programmed to run it.. im running moine on a separate temperature sensor using a Dakota Digital fan controller so I can set the temp on the fly or kick it in manually.. works like a champ.



upgrading from the 5 blade metal to the 9 blade plastic helps cooling... yours being 2004 it "should" already have the 9 blade plastic fan.



that fan blade is designed to run fully engaged so as long as its not damaged you shouldnt stress it by driving it with the fan fully engage.. esp just 15 miles. . the horton clutch when engaged spins the fasn at full speed all the time when its needed.. ive had my fan stay on for long periods of time when traversing the south on 100 degree days..



the horton clutch I used is a part number 996123. (on my T444E).
I then used the PAC-2750 fan controller and sending unit (there was a spare port in my water neck to install the sensor.)
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Old 04-16-2020, 01:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
How much will you be driving the bus after the build?

My Cat 3126 from everything I can tell came oem with an electric clutch fan.
To include warning label on the shroud...
What I've got is a direct linkage fan -- nothing to break -- I'm sure it was the "quick, cheap fix" done before my time...

There's a lot of stress on the fan so I'd be concerned with welding one. If there's enough "meat" to make a strong, balanced (these things spin pretty fast...) connection then have it welded.

The trade off to a fixed fan is higher fuel consumption to turn the fan when not needed, AND higher noise volume at higher rpm...
Would one actually hear the difference on the hwy? IDK...

If it's only 15 miles, you can probably just drive it home as is with the cabin heaters on max. Just keep an eye on your temp gauge! If it does get hot, pull over and let it cool off before finishing the drive home.

if the bus cruises with the RPM at 2000 or above you definitely hear that fan! the metal fan has more of a drone, the plastic 9 blade is a higher pitch whine. and its annoying.. before i swapped my trans out and I was taching at 2300 RPM or so that fan was really Loud. . now that I tach around 1600 in 6th or 1800 in 5th. its not too bad.. the OP has a newer bus presumably with Overdrive so his might not be too loud running all the time.. the alternative is a hot engine.. the 444E likes to run warm anyways, not having a good fan clutch makes it hot fast on the highway.. while the 444E is a little more resilient to being ruined by pverheating than the DT series engines. you still can damage it.. its all-out alarm-Now condition is 228-235. (depending on ECM software version.. ). Navistar used to set them at 235f. but later lowered the alarm to 228f.
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
if the bus cruises with the RPM at 2000 or above you definitely hear that fan! the metal fan has more of a drone, the plastic 9 blade is a higher pitch whine. and its annoying.. before i swapped my trans out and I was taching at 2300 RPM or so that fan was really Loud. . now that I tach around 1600 in 6th or 1800 in 5th. its not too bad.. the OP has a newer bus presumably with Overdrive so his might not be too loud running all the time.. the alternative is a hot engine.. the 444E likes to run warm anyways, not having a good fan clutch makes it hot fast on the highway.. while the 444E is a little more resilient to being ruined by pverheating than the DT series engines. you still can damage it.. its all-out alarm-Now condition is 228-235. (depending on ECM software version.. ). Navistar used to set them at 235f. but later lowered the alarm to 228f.
I can understand why as School buses, these engines are equipped with clutch fans, or fixed fans.

But a Skoolie who may also be concerned with noise and mpg -- do you think an electric fan might not be a better way to go?

I guess my answer lies in how over the road trucks using the same engines are set up...
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:40 PM   #9
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electric FAN, or electric fan CLUTCH? big difference. the radiator capacity on a 444E is too small to have an actual electric fan cool it..



most big rigs are using electric fan clutches.. many new school busses are too..


in my opinion the Horton E450 clutch is the best way to go... pricey but it works well..
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
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electric FAN, or electric fan CLUTCH? big difference. the radiator capacity on a 444E is too small to have an actual electric fan cool it..



most big rigs are using electric fan clutches.. many new school busses are too..


in my opinion the Horton E450 clutch is the best way to go... pricey but it works well..
I believe my 3126 came oem with an electric fan clutch.
I currently have a fixed fan (I posted this here cause the OP wondered about switching to a fixed fan)

But I also wonder about switching to an electric motor fan like cars use.
Size is simply a matter of the area of the radiator and the cfm of the fan.
Just need to learn how many cfm the oem fan pulled and match it...
I would think for hwy use that would be the quietest of all...
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:31 PM   #11
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these IH busses have a 1/2 radiator 1/2 turbo cooler setup.. I know for a fact in warm weather that the fan is required to run even at highway speeds to keep the engine cool.. my bus is a shortie and being unconverted with its power turned up I have no issues cooling it.. on flat land my fan runs very little.. but put a load on that engine at all.. ie full size bus or pulling an incline it needs a big fan..



im not sure what the CFM of the factory fan is.. but its a 24 inch 9 blade fan with a pretty steep blade pitch.. its WINDY if you kick the RPMs up and turn that thing on..



on my Hotrod monte carlo I used the biggest electric motor fan I could find at the time which was an 18 inch Lincoln Mark VIII fan that pulled 5000 CFM..



the radiator / intercooler area is possibly big enough to support 2 sets of double puller fans which could give you about 3500 CFM each set for a total of 7000..



since the bus originally had A/C that was taken out (why??).. then it should more than have enoiugh electrical capacity to run the 80-90 amps required to run those 4 fans..



the issue with the 1/2 rad 1/2 intercooler setup is lack of ballast.. in a full rad setup. if you are making more heat than the rad can dissipate you have a larger coolant capacity and larger radiator area to disperse heat... the higher your rad temperature goes above outside ambient, the more BTUs you are able to pull away from it.. the lack of surface area means you need as much fan as you can get to move latent heat...



the ultimate fix is to install a full rad / full intercooler.. (if there is room)..


the DT466 engine sits further back on its cradle than the V8 does..

the T444E sits forward enough that there is a spacer to push the rad / intercooler outward (toward the grill) by about an inch over that of the I6 (466).. the 466E high torque models were built in the amtran chassis with full rad / intercooler ..



ive never seen a CE style T444E that had it factory..



at the time I was fixing my cooling I had found parts that I figured would work and set my intercooler "darn close" to the grille..



I then installed my E450 clutch and had my radiator cleaned and steamed. .

the #450 clutch helped but didnt solve my temp issue.. what solved it in my bus was when I blew up the AT545 trans and replaced it with my allison 1000.. lowering my RPMs and trans heat load a huge amount..



last summer in mid-upper 90s heat I got up to 215 degrees once on an incline.. that wont hurt a 444E..


in contrast my old 1991 DTA360 mechanical with viscous clutch (and that same split rad).. never saw 200 in 100f heat down south...
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:56 PM   #12
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I just got off the phone with Dale Johnson from Horton and he recommended the Horton setup.
He also said I should be able to use my stock fan since its the plastic one.



This is what he recommended:
  1. EC450 clutch: part 996123
  2. Remote Switch: 994187
  3. Wiring Harness: 996125
  4. Thermal Switch: 993673 for 210 degrees, or the 993680 for the 190 degrees.
He said the thermostat should be about 10 degrees below that.


So I have to decide whether to use the one for 210 or the one for 190
What do you guys think?
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:27 PM   #13
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I've never had a bus with a fan I could hear.
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe45 View Post
I just got off the phone with Dale Johnson from Horton and he recommended the Horton setup.
He also said I should be able to use my stock fan since its the plastic one.



This is what he recommended:
  1. EC450 clutch: part 996123
  2. Remote Switch: 994187
  3. Wiring Harness: 996125
  4. Thermal Switch: 993673 for 210 degrees, or the 993680 for the 190 degrees.
He said the thermostat should be about 10 degrees below that.


So I have to decide whether to use the one for 210 or the one for 190
What do you guys think?
What temp rating is the recommended oem thermostat?

The idea here is that the thermostat opens allowing coolant flow to the radiator for a brief bit of time before the thermal switch is triggered for the fan. You want hot coolant flowing before running the fan.

Otherwise the fan will cycle on/off in a less than optimal manner...
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:40 PM   #15
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I've never had a bus with a fan I could hear.
Is that like my saying I could never distinguish the sound of a starter/generator fan humming under the wail of the main rotor blades and the roar of my beloved T53...?
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Old 04-16-2020, 07:41 PM   #16
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Is that like my saying I could never distinguish the sound of a starter/generator fan humming under the wail of the main rotor blades and the roar of my beloved T53...?
maybe.

Chris is always saying to listen for the fan. I've either never had a working fan clutch or I just can't hear em.
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:03 PM   #17
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maybe.

Chris is always saying to listen for the fan. I've either never had a working fan clutch or I just can't hear em.
Okay, it strays from the original question but it seems the OP has a plan in play so...

ECCB, at first I thought you were effing with me (which is okay... )
If you never had a working fan clutch you'd know it from your overheated engines... That or you're tone deaf...

I haven't driven my bus on the hwy enough to know yet but I suspect the amt of wind noise at hwy speed will override the additional decibels of my fan... Again my 3126 has a po' boy fix -- no clutch on my fan -- just a ol' metal blade spinning away -- I'm sure spinning more than it needs to on the hwy...

Can't speak to the fan clutch. A thermostatic fluid (viscous) coupling clutch (like on my Scout) doesn't go on/off like an electric motor fan does. It's spinning all the time but it's also slipping a bit by design, as it gets hotter it locks up more but at any given engine rpm the fan (which is directly driven) is always spinning slower. This reduces parasitic HP loss, and reduces the noise generated at hwy speeds.
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:23 PM   #18
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the OEM ECM is set for 212 on and 205 off.. buying the relay and setting it up like IH did allows for the ECM to be programmed for desired on / off temperatures..



the factory thermostat is a 192 which means its fully open at 202. that comes right in line with the 210 degree thermostat horton recommends..



or you can use the Dakota PAC-2750 and have complete control over the on / off temp



what horton recommends should work fine and also gives you the ability to turb the fan on anytime you want (remote switch)..


I like it.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:10 PM   #19
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I'm still not sure weather to go with the 993673 for 210 degrees, or the 993680 for the 190 degrees.



Don't know what thermostat I currently have. How do I find out? Take it out and check?
Or better yet, which is better, the 210 or the 190? I could just replace whatever it has with a new one of the best temp rating, and get the corresponding thermal switch.
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:54 AM   #20
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Use the 210 thermal switch. The factory IH 444E engine thermostat is 192. Absolutely don’t put a 210 engine Tstat in.

The way you’ll be setting this up if you want your fan on earlier you will have a switch to run it full time. I kick my fan on when I know I’m going to make a long hill climb.. fan is on a few miles ahead do everything is nice and cool..

The IH factory ECM turns it on at 212 so the 210 switch is the one to use
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